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CJ
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Boulder, CO
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 Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 4:30 pm Post subject: Kerry and PCF-44 |
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What we know:
PCF-44 was in COSDIV11 and OinC was Tom Wright from 11/68-4/69 (See swiftboats.net)
Kerry was in COSDIV13 from 14 Dec 68 to around 22 Jan 69
Kerry was in COSDIV11 after 13 and took over PCF-94 after 29 Jan 69
Kerry claims 'December 1968 through January 1969 - Kerry commands PCF-44
Now is there a nuance that I am missing, or are we betting more BS?
reference: www.sportsmenforkerry.com/fitrep_analysis.htm |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry and PCF-44 |
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I think, CJ, that when dealing with Kerry's "nuance", you need to parse his claims word for word. I'm quickly coming to the opinion that Kerry's Vietnam service has been scripted, doctored and sanitized to a point where it no longer has credibility. And through it ALL, I suspect it has been Ted Kennedy and his machine manipulating the strings.
As far as the above claim is concerned, it MAY be, and probably IS, technically correct. It IS conceivable that, during his 6 day tenure with Coastal 11 in Dec 68, he MIGHT have been in command of PCF44...before he was summarily thrown out. After his transfer BACK to Coastal 11 sometime prior to 22 Jan 69, it is probable that he WAS placed in command of PCF44 prior to assuming command of PCF94.
But of one thing there is NO doubt. The statement on his website about his tenure in command of PCF44 is, at best, technically correct, at worst, purposefully misleading and innacurate. In other words, a cleverly worded DECEPTION!
It appears that Kerry wants his tenure at Coastal 13 and Cat Lo to go away, and this simply adds more evidence to substantiate that speculation. |
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CJ
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:04 pm Post subject: Lt Wright is the problem |
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That would all work except that Lt. Wright was the OinC of PCF-44 from Nov 68 to Apr 69.
The best guess I have is that Kerry was given the boat while Wright was off a few times.
Also, I don't believe that Kerry was in COSDIV11 in Nov 68. Notice that the fitrep is dated 18 Dec 69 and was 'for continuity only'. I suspect it was filled out just to fill the gap. |
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Hesiod
Former Member
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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The reason for the discrepency is that staffers wrote that information based upon published news accounts which get it wrong. (Namely the Boston Globe bio).
Not Kerry himself.
As usual, you wackos are blowing an irrelevancy into a major conspiracy and character flaw. All the while ignoring the lying, dishonorable "commander-in-chief" currently in the White House who never takes responsibility for anything, blames everybody but himself for his scew ups, and who is making our country less safe due to his intransigence and incompetence.
I seriously have to question the patriotism of people like you who whine about minutiae, while the present administration is majorly screwing this country up. |
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CJ
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:15 pm Post subject: Hessoid |
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First let me say, that I don't find completeness and honesty to be minutiae.
Second, if Kerry had released all of his records I suspect we would have fewer questions. Maybe not though.
Third, Kerry is responsible for what is on his site. Don't tell me he hasn't had time; these pages have been out there for months.
And finally, if Kerry is such a hero, why did he get such bad fitreps while in VN? This we know from the sanitized stuff he released. It would be interesting to get the complete file.
We already know that Zumwalt was looking for a poster boy to improve moral. That Silver he got was without proper action or documentation but got jammed through anyway. We also know that Kerry was not above using political connections to try to improve his fitreps.
These are not Kerry vs. Bush issues. This goes to the heart of honesty and integrity. As far as I am concerned, Kerry isn't there.
PS: If this is such minutiae, I suggest you spend your time elsewhere. |
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Keith
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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<snip>
Last edited by Keith on Fri May 28, 2004 9:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Hesiod, or is it Hemroid, or mikest, or craig, or sparky? which one are you? No profile, no military service, no existance. Where do you live movon.org?
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Hesiod
Former Member
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Keith wrote: | | Hesiod wrote: | The reason for the discrepency is that staffers wrote that information based upon published news accounts which get it wrong. (Namely the Boston Globe bio).
Not Kerry himself.
As usual, you wackos are blowing an irrelevancy into a major conspiracy and character flaw. All the while ignoring the lying, dishonorable "commander-in-chief" currently in the White House who never takes responsibility for anything, blames everybody but himself for his scew ups, and who is making our country less safe due to his intransigence and incompetence.
I seriously have to question the patriotism of people like you who whine about minutiae, while the present administration is majorly screwing this country up. |
Rare that you can find a post where someone defends one candidate because it wasn't his fault, staffers got it wrong, while attacking another candidate for not accepting the blame for crimes committed way down the chain of command.
And, to make this really special, we are all unpatriotic for not agreeing with your assertion that "the present administration is majorly screwing this country up" while we are wasting all of this time just chatting about minor things like character and integrity. One major flaw in your argument that might get you in trouble with the talking point police... you forgot to call it a regime, the answer they were looking for is regime. So close too.. 
Keith |
I find it interesting that any discrepancy on John Kerry's website should automatically be his responsibility, but NOTHING that occurs in the Bush administraton is Bush's fault.
Yup. The Buck always stops somewhere else with George W. Bush.
Blame it on lower ranking soldiers, if possible. Not the high ranking Bush officials who looked for ways to weasel out of the geneva conventions, and implemented a policy that encouraged the use of torture.
Nope. It's never Bush's fault.
I have a suggestion, instead of whining like paranoid wack jobs about some minor discrepancy in a summary of Kerry's military record, why not just write a polite e-mail to the campaign pointing out the problem, and aksing them what's up?
Maybe they'll thank you for pointing out the error, and correct it?
Gee whiz! What a concept, eh?
But you are too busy wallowing in your bileous hatred to act like a rational human being.
And, yes...you are far from patriotic. You are deranged. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Keep the focus folks...don't respond to troll bait. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Lt Wright is the problem |
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| CJ wrote: | | That would all work except that Lt. Wright was the OinC of PCF-44 from Nov 68 to Apr 69. |
This needs furthur documentation. Assuming Kerry's claims have a veneer of truth, it would appear that Kerry had SOME PCF44 command during the period he claims.
| Quote: | | The best guess I have is that Kerry was given the boat while Wright was off a few times. |
Certainly plausible, but undocumented AFAIK.
| Quote: | | Also, I don't believe that Kerry was in COSDIV11 in Nov 68. |
He wasn't...nor does he claim to have been. And the records establish that.
| Quote: | | Notice that the fitrep is dated 18 Dec 69 and was 'for continuity only'. I suspect it was filled out just to fill the gap. |
Correct, but Kerry WAS transfered to Coastal 11 on 6 Dec 68 and booted out of there 6 or 7 days later on 13 Dec 68. Hence, Kerry's claim to have commanded PCF44 at some time in Dec 68 does have plausible standing.
That transfer generated the need for a "detachment of officer" fitrep, which is the ambivalent, "submitted for continuity", non-fitrep fitrep submitted by LCDR Elliot. I addressed this earlier here.
| Quote: | Now, consider the content of that same fitness report (pp.20-21). Better yet, consider the LACK of content in that same fitness report. "Infrequent Observation", "Not Observed" and "Submitted for continuity" in the comments section are it's content.
Also consider what appears to be a rather odd notation in Section 22, subsection "c", question 2. The respondent is asked whether or not this report has been discussed with the subject officer, and LCDR Elliot responds "Yes". Why in the world would LCDR Elliot feel the need to "discuss" such an ambivalent report with Kerry in the first place?
Keeping in mind the allegation by Lt. Wright, might this have been a trip to the proverbial woodshed in lieu of what COULD have been a LOUSY fitness report? |
I'm beginning to suspect the application of an old adage to this fitrep..."If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all."
Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Fri May 28, 2004 8:27 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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Good point me#1you#10, we need to ignore all of them and I am as guilty as any for giving them the chance to spout off at the mouth.Sorry mikest, sparky, craig, hemroid and some that I am sure that I missed, I won't be responding to you in the future and I encourage everyone else to do the same. So slam away, it will be ugly for a few day's but you will go away.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Hesiod
Former Member
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: | | Keep the focus folks...don't respond to troll bait. |
Focus on what? Paranoid rantings?
Get a grip on reality folks. Our country is in trouble, and you are contemplating the Naval. (pun intended). |
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CJ
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 21
Location: Boulder, CO
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Bang me#1you#10. You hit it. webpage updated. He was there and only for a week....Must have been ugly.
As far as Tom Wright goes, he is listed on swiftboats.net, and a member of this organization.
I have traded emails with him and he indicates that he believes he took over PCF-44 in 11/68, before arrived for his interesting week. |
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Keith
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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<snip>
Last edited by Keith on Fri May 28, 2004 8:59 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri May 28, 2004 8:00 pm Post subject: |
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| CJ wrote: |
I have traded emails with him and he indicates that he believes he took over PCF-44 in 11/68, before (Kerry) arrived for his interesting week. |
Think you left out Kerry's name there CJ.
Hopefully Lt. Wright will expand upon and can corroborate his allegations in the article by John B. Dwyer...
| Quote: | It got to a point where Wright told his divisional commander he no longer wanted Kerry in his boat group, so he was re-assigned to another one. “I had an idea of his actions but didn’t have to be responsible for him.” Then Wright and like-minded boat officers took matters into their own hands. “When he got his third Purple Heart, three of us told him to leave. We knew how the system worked and we didn’t want him in Coastal Division 11. Kerry didn’t manipulate the system, we did.”
Call Sign: Boston Strangler |
It is apparent, with the benefit of having waded through this examination of Kerry's records, that Lt. Wright is refering to Kerry's first AND second transfers out of Coastal 11. It is unfortunate that the writer was less than clear on this point.
As to Lt. Wright's last statement...
| Quote: | | “When he got his third Purple Heart, three of us told him to leave. We knew how the system worked and we didn’t want him in Coastal Division 11. Kerry didn’t manipulate the system, we did.” |
I'd sure like to know just what he meant by this and to hear from other "like-minded" officers. |
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