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JROTC
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 83
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:06 pm Post subject: Answering Kerry - 'Bush and I were lieutenants' |
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I didn't see this posted and thought it was an important piece.
To Mod's - my intent is not protecting President Bush, but providing to SBV's, SBVT members, and interested parties with ammunition when they get hit with the "oh ..., well Bush was AWOL"
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040831-094211-3678r.htm
I found it to be a well written commentary by a retired Colonell of the Air Force / Guard
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"It is fatal to enter any war without the will to win it" - General Douglas MacArthur |
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oasis
Lieutenant
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 201
Location: Florida, want some sun? LoL!
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FMBass
Ensign
Joined: 29 Aug 2004
Posts: 51
Location: NJ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Simple solution: I'll show you mine (Bush) if you show me yours (Kerry)!
Reread the name of this site.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:22 pm Post subject: |
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I'm moving it to R & R for when people need debunking points.
Thanks, 
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
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TXBear
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
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Location: New Waverly, TX
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rmeals
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 45
Location: California/Colorado
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject: W and the Air National Guard |
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So why don't the Bush spokespeople say:
1. W decided to follow his father and become a fighter pilot and joining the Air National Guard was the most expedient way of doing this.
2. W was not trying to avoid going to Vietnam. His choice of military occupation was fighter pilot, which he pursued in an Air Guard unit that had members rotating through Vietnam and there was never any guarantee the entire unit would not be deployed to Vietnam, as happened with other Air National Guard unit. In fact, at one point he even inquired about volunteering for one of the slots for pilots in his unit who were doing short rotations through Vietnam.
3. W was flying actively until the war was rapidly wound down. He stopped flying at a time where the military’s need for pilots was greatly diminished and continued to serve until he was granted an early out as were many, many others, including John Kerry.
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air_vet
PO2
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 374
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:08 am Post subject: Bush, the ANG and the F102. Info to help you. |
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With all the attention being turned (again) to Preesident Biush's ANG service, I offer the follwing information to help you refute the "other side". The article is no longer available on the source website and even Google's cached version now seems to be gone. I have the complete article with pictures available as a PDF file. PM me with an email address and I'll send it to you.
| Quote: | F-102, Vietnam & George W. Bush
It really bothers me that a coward like George W. Bush spent the Vietnam War training to fly old and useless planes in Texas while John Kerry was heroically risking his life in combat and got three purple hearts!
- Jennifer Braun
We normally shy away from the world of politics, but we get variations of this kind of question regularly and feel it necessary to clarify some information. We'll do our best to avoid bringing our own political biases into this article since we are more interested in defending an "old and useless" aircraft than any particular politician!
George W. Bush's military service began in 1968 when he enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard after graduating with a bachelor's degree in history from Yale University. The aircraft that he was ultimately trained to fly was the F-102 Delta Dagger. A number of sources have claimed that Bush sought service in the National Guard to avoid being sent to Vietnam, and that the F-102 was a safe choice because it was an obsolete aircraft that would never see any real combat. However, those perceptions turn out to be incorrect, as will be seen shortly.
The F-102 was a supersonic second generation fighter designed in the early 1950s for the US Air Force. The primary mission of the aircraft was to intercept columns of Soviet nuclear bombers attempting to reach targets in the US and destroy them with air-to-air missiles. The technologies incorporated into the aircraft were state-of-the-art for the day. The F-102 set many firsts, including the first all-weather delta-winged combat aircraft, the first fighter capable of maintaining supersonic speed in level flight, and the first interceptor to have an armament entirely of missiles. Among the many innovations incorporated into the design were the use of the area rule to reduce aerodynamic drag and an advanced electronic fire control system capable of guiding the aircraft to a target and automatically launching its missiles.
The F-102 made its first flight in 1953 and entered service with the Air Defense Command (ADC) in 1956. About 1,000 Delta Daggers were built, and although eventually superseded by the related F-106 Delta Dart, the F-102 remained one of the most important aircraft in the ADC through the mid-1960s. At its peak, the aircraft made up over half of the interceptors operated by the ADC and equipped 32 squadrons across the continental US. Additional squadrons were based in western Europe, the Pacific, and Alaska.
As the 1960s continued, many of these aircraft were transferred from the US Air Force to Air National Guard (ANG) units. By 1966, nearly 350 F-102s were being operated by ANG squadrons. A total of 23 ANG units across the US ultimately received the fighter, including squadrons in Arizona, California, Connecticut, Florida, Hawaii, Idaho, Louisiana, Maine, Minnesota, Montana, New York, North Dakota, Oregon, Pennsylvania, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin.
One of the primary ANG units to receive the F-102 was the 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron (FIS) at Ellington Air National Guard Station, which operated the aircraft from 1960 through 1974. These planes were given responsibility for patrolling the Gulf Coast and intercepting Soviet aircraft based in Cuba that regularly flew off the US shore to test American defenses. The 111th was and still is part of the 147th Fighter Wing in Houston, Texas. It was here that George W. Bush was stationed following his enlistment in May 1968.
It is a common misconception that the Air National Guard was a safe place for military duty during the Vietnam War. In actuality, pilots from the 147th Fighter Interceptor Group, as it was called at the time, were actually conducting combat missions in Vietnam when Bush enlisted. In fact, Air Force F-102 squadrons had been stationed in South Vietnam since March 1962. It was during this time that the Kennedy administration began building up a large US military presence in the nation as a deterrent against North Vietnamese invasion.
F-102 squadrons continued to be stationed in South Vietnam and Thailand throughout most of the Vietnam War. The planes were typically used for fighter defense patrols and as escorts for B-52 bomber raids. While the F-102 had few opportunities to engage in its primary role of air combat, the aircraft was used in the close air support role starting in 1965. Armed with rocket pods, Delta Daggers would make attacks on Viet Cong encampments in an attempt to harass enemy soldiers. Amazingly, some missions were even conducted using the aircraft's heat-seeking air-to-air missiles to lock onto enemy campfires at night. Though these missions were never considered to be serious attacks on enemy activity, F-102 pilots did often report secondary explosions coming from their targets.
These missions were also dangerous, given the risks inherent to low-level attacks against armed ground troops. A total of 14 or 15 F-102 fighters were lost in Vietnam. Three were shot down by anti-aircraft or small arms fire, one is believed to have been lost in air-to-air combat with a MiG-21, four were destroyed on the ground during Viet Cong attacks, and the remainder succumbed to training accidents.
Such accidents were quite common even in peacetime conditions, which is not unusual for military aircraft whose pilots risk their lives on every flight. ANG sources indicate that only highly-qualified pilot candidates were accepted for Delta Dagger training because it was such a challenging aircraft to fly and left little room for mistakes. According to the Air Force Safety Center, the lifetime Class A accident rate for the F-102 was 13.69 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours, much higher than the average for today's combat aircraft. For example, the F-16 has an accident rate of 4.14, the F-15 is at 2.47, the F-117 at 4.07, the S-3 at 2.6, and the F-18 at 4.9. Even the Marine Corps' AV-8B, regarded as the most dangerous aircraft in US service today, has a lifetime accident rate of only 11.44 mishaps per 100,000 flight hours. The F-102 claimed the lives of many pilots, including a number stationed at Ellington during Bush's tenure. Of the 875 F-102A production models that entered service, 259 were lost in accidents that killed 70 Air Force and ANG pilots.
Nevertheless, we have established that the F-102 was serving in combat in Vietnam at the time Bush enlisted to become an F-102 pilot. In fact, Air National Guard pilots from the 147th FIG were routinely rotated to Vietnam for combat duty under a volunteer program called "Palace Alert" from 1968 to 1970. Palace Alert was an Air Force program that sent qualified F-102 pilots from the ANG to bases in Europe or southeast Asia for three to six months of frontline duty. This program was instituted because the Air Force lacked sufficient pilots of its own for duty in Vietnam but was unable to activate ANG units since Presidents Johnson and Nixon had decided not to do so for political reasons. Thanks to Palace Alert, the Air Force was able to transfer much-needed National Guard pilots to Vietnam on a voluntary basis while not activating their squadrons.
Fred Bradley, a friend of Bush's who was also serving in the Texas ANG, reported that he and Bush inquired about participating in the Palace Alert program. However, the two were told by a superior, MAJ Maurice Udell, that they were not yet qualified since they were still in training and did not have the 500 hours of flight experience required. Furthermore, ANG veteran COL William Campenni, who was a fellow pilot in the 111th FIS at the time, told the Washington Times that Palace Alert was winding down and not accepting new applicants.
After being accepted into the ANG, Airman Basic Bush was selected to attend pilot training even though his test scores were the lowest acceptable for that position. His six weeks of basic training was completed at Lackland AFB in Texas during July and August of 1968. Upon its completion, Bush was promoted to the officer's rank of second lieutenant, which is required for pilot candidates. He spent the next year in flight school at Moody AFB in Georgia from November 1968 to November 1969. The aircraft Lt. Bush trained aboard were the T-41 Mescelero propeller-driven basic trainer and the T-38 Talon primary jet trainer. He also completed two weeks of survival training during this period.
Bush then returned to Ellington in Texas to complete seven months of combat crew training on the F-102 from December 1969 to June 1970. This period included five weeks of training on the T-33 Shooting Star and 16 weeks aboard the TF-102 Delta Dagger two-seat trainer and finally the single-seat F-102A. Bush graduated from the training program in June 1970. The previously mentioned Maurice Udell was a flight instructor for Lt. Bush who was interviewed by the Associated Press in February 2004. MAJ Udell recalled that Bush was one of his best students saying that, "I'd rank him in the top five percent."
As he was completing training and being certified as a qualified F-102 pilot, Bush and other pilots in his position were likely candidates to be rotated to Vietnam. However, the F-102 was built for a type of air combat that wasn't seen during that conflict, and the plane was withdrawn from southeast Asia between December 1969 and mid-1971 (Sources conflict on the date of withdrawal. It may be that the final combat mission was flown in December 1969 but the plane remained in theater until 1971.) The F-102 was instead returned to its primary role of providing air defense for the United States, a duty largely delegated to the ANG by this time.
Ellington, where Bush was stationed, has remained a National Guard air defense base until the present day. In the early 1970s, however, the facility also took on a secondary duty as the only training base for all F-102 pilots from ANG squadrons across the US. Lt. Bush remained in the Texas ANG as a certified F-102 pilot who participated in frequent drills and alerts through April of 1972. It appears that he served on air defense alert during this time since he did not have sufficient flying hours to become an F-102 pilot instructor. (We believe that a minimum of 1,000 flying hours in the F-102 was required to become an instructor. Bush had over 600 hours flying time when he left the Guard, but we believe that this figure included other planes besides the F-102).
By this time, the 147th Fighter Wing was also beginning to transition from the F-102 to the F-101F, an updated version of the F-101B that was a two-seat interceptor used for air defense patrols. As the Ellington F-102s were transitioned to training duties or retired, the F-101F took their place as the primary air defense fighter for the Texas ANG. The base received its first F-101F in May 1971 and its final F-102 was retired in August 1974.
Further complicating matters was the fact that the war in Vietnam was nearing its end during 1972, and the US was withdrawing its forces from the theater. Air Force personnel returning to the US created a glut of active-duty pilots who were more qualified for the training positions available at Ellington than were ANG pilots like Bush. There were not enough aircraft available to accommodate all of these pilots, so many of the Air National Guard members whose enlistments were nearly complete requested early release. The ANG was eager to fulfill these requests because there was not enough time to retrain F-102 pilots to operate new aircraft like the F-101F before their enlistments were up anyway. Bush was one of those forced out by the transition, and he was honorably discharged as a first lieutenant in October 1973, eight months before his six-year enlistment was complete. Bush had over 600 flight hours by the time he completed his military service. (An ANG physical dated 15 May 1971 indicates that Bush had logged 625 flight hours by that time.) In the fall of 1973, Bush began coursework at the Harvard Business School where he received an MBA in 1975.
The point of this discussion is that the military record of George W. Bush deserves a fair treatment. Bush has been criticized for avoiding service in Vietnam, though the evidence proves that the Texas Air National Guard and its F-102 pilots were serving in Vietnam while Bush was in training, and his unit could have been activated for front-line service at any time. Bush has been criticized for using his family influence to obtain his assignment, but the evidence shows that he successfully completed every aspect of the more than two years of training required of him. Bush has been criticized for pursuing a safe and plush position as a fighter pilot, but the evidence indicates the F-102 was a demanding aircraft that claimed the lives of many of its pilots even on routine missions. Bush has also been criticized for deserting the Guard before his enlistment was complete, but the evidence shows he was honorably discharged eight months early because his position was being phased out.
This is not to say that there exist no points of contention in Bush's record worthy of criticism. There are indeed gaps and irregularities from April 1972 to May 1973 that indicate he may not have completed his responsibilities as a National Guardsman. However, these allegations have been fully investigated in the past and were found to lack credibility. Both the New York Times and the Boston Globe investigated Bush's military service and concluded that Bush successfully fulfilled his quarterly requirements to the Guard prior to his discharge.
While it is not our goal to compare and contrast the records of the candidates on this subject, the fact that the questioner cites John Kerry's military service makes us feel it necessary to comment. It is interesting to note that there are just as many, if not more, irregularities in Kerry's military record as there are in Bush's. Kerry can certainly be praised for many of his actions under fire, such as saving the life of Army Lt. James Rassmann during combat. However, his record contains some troubling issues as well. Not the least of these is his involvement in the controversial group Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) while he was still an active-duty member of the US Navy. Kerry's testimony before Congress as VVAW spokesman in 1971, during which he accused soldiers serving in Vietnam of being war criminals, was found to be based on largely falsified information as documented by the books America in Vietnam and Stolen Valor. The Boston Globe has also reported on troubling accusations regarding the circumstances surrounding Kerry's medals, particularly his first two purple hearts awarded for minor injuries that may even have been self-inflicted.
In any event, history has shown that one can find good and bad elements in virtually anyone's military history. We personally do not believe that this issue has any relevance to the election, and our goal is to defend those who served alongside the F-102, especially National Guard veterans. Nevertheless, if the military service of both George W. Bush and John Kerry is to be an issue, then both records deserve to be treated with balance and fairness rather than subjected to double standards.
In addition to the references described above, this article has relied on a number of sources. Particularly informative in describing the history and military service of the F-102 Delta Dagger have been The Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft by David Donald, ed., and Convair F-102 Delta Dagger by Wayne Mutza. Some interesting details are also available in David Isby's Jane's Fighter Combat in the Jet Age. Another superb resource is Joe Baugher's American Military Aircraft, particularly the F-102A and Squadron Service sections. We are also indebted to a number of former pilots and ground crew who flew and maintained the F-102 at Air Force and National Guard bases around the world from 1958 to 1973. These retired servicemen have provided extensive details and expertise in documenting the history of the F-102 and providing relevant comparisons to more recent planes that our staff members have experience flying.
- answer by Greg Alexander
- answer by Jeff Scott
- answer by Joe Yoon
- answer by Molly Swanson, 18 July 2004
As we had anticipated, this subject has generated a tremendous response from our visitors, both positive and negative. Below are a few of the replies we have received.
"I want to express my gratitude for your excellent discussion of the F-102's service in Vietnam. I was a mechanic with the 509th [Fighter Interceptor Squadron] in the Philippines. We were the primary F-102 unit to deploy to Vietnam, and I was stationed at Da Nang when we were attacked by the [Viet Cong] in 1965...the attached picture shows one of our F-102s destroyed in a VC raid.
...I am so happy to find a site like yours that looks past politics to tell the truth about our service and contributions to the war effort. I want to thank you on behalf of myself and my squadron mates, especially those who didn't make it home."
- George, 3 August 2004
ED: Thanks to you for the excellent information you have provided to help us improve this article. Furthermore, we are pleased to provide an accurate assessment of the F-102 no matter where or how it served. It is unfortunate that the political opponents of Bush have chosen to attack him by attacking the plane he flew and service in the Air National Guard. We have done our best to contact former pilots and ground crew of the F-102 during the course of our research. Most feel that they and their plane have been treated unfairly, and we are happy to do what we can to educate readers about the true legacy of the F-102.
"Your site is an obvious front for the right-wing conspiracy that hijacked the media and is destroying America. Your pathetic attempt to defend draft-dodger and deserter Bush is nothing but right-wing lies. Where's the proof? Show it to me and then I'll correct you. All you have is b---s---."
- name withheld, 1 August 2004
ED: We feel that the proof is well-documented by the links and other sources we have provided throughout the above discussion. We could have easily left out these supplemental sources, but provide them so that you may read them yourself and come to your own conclusions.
"Heartfelt applause to Aerospaceweb.org. I just had the pleasure of reading the answer to the slightly vitriolic question regarding President Bush and Senator Kerry's military service. A plain reading of the available information proved far superior a response than any mere counter vitriol. The fact is mightier than the hyperbole."
- John, 1 August 20 |
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pneal
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 107
Location: Tennessee
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:10 pm Post subject: Re: Answering Kerry - 'Bush and I were lieutenants' |
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Just read this commentary and want to thank the poster. It answered many questions I had and should be seen by more Americans wanting the truth. It is an important piece of the real story!
| JROTC wrote: | I didn't see this posted and thought it was an important piece.
To Mod's - my intent is not protecting President Bush, but providing to SBV's, SBVT members, and interested parties with ammunition when they get hit with the "oh ..., well Bush was AWOL"
http://www.washtimes.com/op-ed/20040831-094211-3678r.htm
I found it to be a well written commentary by a retired Colonell of the Air Force / Guard |
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warnergt
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2
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