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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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 Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| msindependent wrote: | | oh dear, it's time for me to send more money to the SwiftVets. |
 That's cute! Thanks!
It's a good thing you don't see them all - you'd either be broke or you'd have to lower your payment-to-troll ratio to a dime a dozen. 
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Michmaddave
Ensign
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 55
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Middle of road kill,
you mention as a premise or imply that the war was "unwinnable". Unfortunately for you Vo Nguyen Giap, General in the North Vietnamese Army has admitted that The Tet offensive was pivotal, only in that they were willing to sign an agreement like Korea due to their defeat, ending the war, if it weren't for specifically Kerry and his like to create the unrest in the US. Pretty damning info here my friend...
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To model our political system upon speculations of lasting tranquility, is to calculate on the weaker springs of the human character.
---Alexander Hamilton
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine |
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rb325th
Admiral
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 1334
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:11 pm Post subject: |
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Mich, we wouldn't want the facts to stand in the way of their leftist Anti everything rhetoric though would we?
They seem to have no problem with ignoring those facts or haven't done enough research of their own and are simply reguritating the party line.
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U.S. Army 1983-1995, 11C1P/11H2P NBTDT |
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Hammer2
PO2
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 387
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:12 pm Post subject: Re: Stay on Message!!! |
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| sevry wrote: | | middleroad wrote: | Maybe this is one of those cases where those who watch a debate come up with different conclusions than those who READ the debate. I just read the entire transcript here on this site, and I think you should remove it because it's not helping the cause. O'Neill basically avoided the issues
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If the issue is who-lost-Vietnam, it's not difficult to see. Walter Cronkite took pleasure in saying he stopped the war, and consequently killed thousands of Vietnamese in the bloodbath which followed.
People like to use the acrostic, MSM, for mainstream media. But it's not mainstream in the sense of honestly reflecting the good sense of America. The majority can be wrong, at times. The Constitution allows for this. But a bitter minority, or even 'fifth column', can be wrong most of the time, intentionally and destructively so. There's nothing mainstream about the media, about academia, arts and entertainment to include tv and the music biz, and of course the art world itself, various corporations, a host of think tanks with talking heads for the tv, or the Democrat Party, with respect to all those Democrats who support or are Swift Vets. It's a leftwing 'mainstream', that is which calls itself mainstream and insists others do, as well. It's not. And it's not just the press and television.
They continue in full force, today. But today they are challenged at every turn. O'Neill can seem buoyed by the coverage of the Washington Post. But it wasn't the Post that broke the story, but rather tried to cover it up. Validation is never going to be had from the LM. It's the fool's errand to hope that they will eventually promote a message they believe is contrary to their destructive and self-destructive agenda.
But in the late 1960s, they were unchallenged, and Americans were naive and trusting of the LM. Walter Cronkite was the 'trusted uncle'. These had been the war reporters, after all. WWII-mania would have been particularly strong in the early 60s, even for Korea - the 'forgotten' war. How dare one criticize the LM, in other words. And they took that trust, and abused it, and turned it on people with such seeming coordination that the MOST TRUSTED VOICES of society, in the late 1960s, turned to oppose and undermine our own national security and cost thousands and thousands of people their lives through a policy of cooperating with the enemy and disseminating its propaganda.
That's not happening, today. Well, it is. But it's not belng believed. There is still the core, perhaps, of elderly who trust the LM as 'war reporters' from the 40s. There are the bitter Michael Moorists who are almost sneeringly at war with America, itself. Again, with respect, there is the Democrat Party almost wholely owned as another agency of the LM. But that core is no longer the majority of Americans. And it's no thanks to the Washington Post, frankly. It because of the Swift Vets, and their appearances on conservative talk radio, their support on conservative websites, and on 'weblogs' of assorted political leaning, even the spotty coverage of FOX where the alphab's froze them out along with the 'magazines and newspapers of record'. If this had been the situation in the late 60s, there would have been 'freepers' on the Washington Mall, and people would have laughed at protestors getting 'theirs' at the Democrat's Convention in '68. Instead, too many were unnerved and destabilized in their innocence. And today couldn't have happened, then, because today is the result of thinking about then. People were fooled by those at war with America. Not so many, now. |
I think you strike to the heart of the issue. I beleive that our purpose in Vietnam was noble. The error, as I see it was to go to war under a false pretext.
In the 1964 campaign, Johnson painted Goldwater as a warmonger who would start World War III. After promising he would not send American Boys to die in Vietnam he could not then argue for intervention.
Thus the pretext of the Gulf of Tonkin incident to provide the necessary fig leaf for intervention.
I believe that it was this deception that prevented an honest debate taking place. The lack of honest debate led to a national concensus for intervention not being formed. This lack of consensus led to the MacNamara doctrine of containment and measured response. The MacNamara doctrine set the condition at the start that victory over the communists was not the objective of the war. Failure to define victory as the objective led to the war becoming a war of attrition. As long as North Vietnam was exempt from invasion and overthrow of the communist government, our enemy had a secure base of operations, with an unlimited supply of war material from the Soviet Union and China.
This chain of errors caused the war to drag on unnecessarily and allowed time for the communists to manufacture the "Anti-War" movement that destroyed our will to fight.
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"The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Thomas Jefferson
"An armed society is a polite society" - Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it won't be needed until someone tries to take it away." -- Thomas Jefferson |
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Nomorelies
Vice Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 977
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| msindependent wrote: | | oh dear, it's time for me to send more money to the SwiftVets. |
Some of their arguments make you just want to reach for the checkbook. I guess that the most profound answer we can give.
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Nomorelies Make a donation HERE |
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Becky
Seaman
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 179
Location: Georgia
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:42 am Post subject: Masters of Deceit |
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| Hammer2 wrote: |
Exactly, well said.
Here is a link to an excerpt of "Masters of Deceit" by J. Edgar Hoover.
The book was published in 1958 and is a detailed exposure of Communist
methods to fool the public. Read it for yourself and see how relevant it is
to today!
http://www.zpub.com/notes/masters.html
If anyone can find a link to the text of the entire book, we need to get it
posted for everyone to read. |
Excellent excerpt! I particularly noted
"The communist press publicizes the case with pictures,
an interview with the wrongdoer, stories about his family.
It carries heart-rending and sentimental accounts, without
regard to truth or the suffering of the victim of the crime
or the sorrow of his loved ones."
Rings a loud bell, doesn't it? (Blame America Press)
I would love to find this book so I could read it. When I
was in school 40 years ago (give or take) communism,
socialism, captilism, all the isms were included in a class
called "government"...our schools don't require this any
longer...pity. |
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JCBoston
Seaman
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 185
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 5:46 am Post subject: Re: Masters of Deceit |
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| Becky wrote: | ...our schools don't require this any
longer...pity. |
No need to require it, as they are actively indoctrinating their students in all other classes. It's easier to make good communists when you don't tell them about it. |
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Robert Cooper
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 134
Location: Tulsa, OK
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:07 am Post subject: |
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I think John Kerry's CREDIBILITY is the main message.
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Know the difference between Politics and Mesmeratics - one embraces, propagates and promotes the truth, while the other manipulates it! |
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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I guess middle of the road doesn't know how to get out of the way and just got run over.
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Defender of the honor of those in harms way keeping us out of harms way.
"Peace is our Profession"
Strategic Air Command - Motto
USAF 75-79 Security Police |
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.::geo::.
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 21 Aug 2004
Posts: 93
Location: Wisconsin
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: |
You say history has shown Vietnam was a waste of money and human beings, but you fail to address the millions of unnecessary deaths as a result of America abandoning it. Aren't they also a waste? |
This is kind of a side-note/off topic post. I live in Wisconsin. We have a rather large number of Hmong and Vietnamese refugees/immigrants here (as I'm sure there are in many other states as well). My mother used to be a secretary for one of the local Nuns, that taught many of these people English, and basic everyday things that all of us learn from birth in the US. Many of these people are working 3-5 jobs... most to earn money to bring family members here that are still "stuck in the jungle". I've heard quite a few local people complaining about these immigrants... saying things like, "Doesn't our country have enough problems? Why do we need them? They can't even speak the 'language'!" Talk like that makes me very sad... Weren't we all immigrants at some point? I know I was! The ancestors on my father's side were driven from France for being Catholic... The ancestors on my mother's side were in Luxembourg.. The first to come to the US was a stow away on a ship.
What some people don't seem to realize is that these immigrants are some of the very people our great troops/veterans were fighting for. These immigrants show that not all was lost in the Viet Nam War. There is no way to make up for the millions lost, but in each dark cloud there is a silver lining. Every Vet should be proud that these immigrants are now free, and have a chance at a better life. I know firsthand just how thankful many of those immigrants are, and I know how thankful I am that I live in a country that fights for the 'little guy'.
I'll get off my soapbox now =)
Keep fighting for the truth, ya'll!
e,
Georgi |
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:49 pm Post subject: |
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AMEN from Sheboygan, WI
CWV
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Defender of the honor of those in harms way keeping us out of harms way.
"Peace is our Profession"
Strategic Air Command - Motto
USAF 75-79 Security Police |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Stay on Message!!! |
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| middleroad wrote: | History has shown, and the intelligent among you know, that Vietnam was a waste of money and human beings, and indeed systematic violations of the Geneva convention did take place. Most importantly, a clear distinction could and can be made between protesting a war and deriding those who participate in it bravely and with good intentions. Unfortunately both happened 30 years ago. Only the former is happening this time around, try as the Right might to smear the movement with the latter. And yes, this war is a colossal waste.javascript:emoticon(' ')
Crying or Very sad |
"History has shown" ... what version of history are you talking about? History has shown that our efforts to protect the lives and freedom of Vietnamese and their neighbors from the Evil Empire was well-conceived, for after we pulled out, the Communists murdered millions.
"As the intelligent among you know" ... Sir, I'm mighty intelligent (1440 SAT score - 800 math; former Ivy League faculty in an advanced area of medicine; former management in a global pharma company). Yet, I know very differently from what you profess I should know.
"Vietnam was a waste of money and human beings" ... Wrong. Pulling OUT of Vietnam made it a waste, for three million (more or less) then died. STAYING IN would have prevented those murders and would have ended the Cold War sooner, saving hundreds of billions oif dollars.
"Systematic violations of the Geneva convention did take place" ... Sir, you use "systematic" without qualification, showing that you are a buffoon (a term I will qualify: a buffoon is someone who plays language games in serous debate because, at best, they do not have the intelligence to understand the nuances of lexical and semantic issues).
"A clear distinction could and can be made between protesting a war and deriding those who participate in it bravely and with good intentions" ... Sir, as in the effects of liberalism in creating slums, massive destruction of the family (especially among minorities), and large-scale welfare and drug dependence, good intentions count for little. Outcomes are what's important. The outcome of what Fonda Kerry et. al. did while alleging "good intentions" is a great example: they are directly culpable in the murders of millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and others.
"And yes, this war is a colossal waste" ... Sir, with the minor exceptions of ending slavery, Fascism, Nazism and Communism, I agree with you...War has never solved anything.
-- FDL
Last edited by fortdixlover on Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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NavyChief
Rear Admiral
Joined: 12 Aug 2004
Posts: 627
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 9:36 pm Post subject: |
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Hello?
Hello?
HEEEELLLOOO?
Middle of the road? Hello?
Has anyone seen my friend, Middle of the road?
I hope you guys didn't do something bad to him 
- instigator
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Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work? |
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markasass
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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| NavyChief wrote: | Hello?
Hello?
HEEEELLLOOO?
Middle of the road? Hello?
Has anyone seen my friend, Middle of the road?
I hope you guys didn't do something bad to him
- instigator |
Middle-of-the-Road is a typical craven liberal bombthrower. MOTR could, in no way, respond to the brilliant replies of fortdixlover, Hammer2, or sevry, so he ran away. Not surprising at all. They ALL seem to do this, no matter what message board they are lurking on. I doubt they even hang around to read any of the replies. It's just "bombs away" and then "run away, run away". Well done, fortdixlover, Hammer2, sevry, and others. Keep these cowardly trolls out of the "battlefield of honor" aka the SwiftVets Discussion Forum.
PS: In recognition of MOTR's duplicity, disingenuousness, and dastardliness, I'm contributing another $50, for a currently-running total of $250. If the Mother Of The Reprobates makes another appearance, I'll make another $50 contribution. I started out only contributing $25, but each time a liberal loony has opened his or her big mouth, I've been motivated to donate even more to the noble cause of the SBVTs.
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"Do all the good you can. By all the means you can. In all the ways you can. In all the places you can. To all the people you can. As long as you ever can." - Wesley |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:08 pm Post subject: |
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Well, I have to be fair, here - middleroad got a little help in finding the exit.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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