| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
TXBear
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 36
Location: New Waverly, TX
|
 Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 12:53 am Post subject: Kerry's Grenades? |
 |
|
According to the descrption of the Swift Boats:
| Quote: | WHAT IS A SWIFT BOAT?
A Swift Boat is a 22-ton heavily armed, 50-foot, shallow draft aluminum patrol craft similar to the utility boats servicing oil platforms and other offshore facilities in the Gulf of Mexico. These boats are known also by the U. S. Navy designation as PCF or Patrol Craft-Fast.
First introduced into the war in Vietnam in 1966, they are driven by two powerful diesel engines. The boat was armed with paired 50-caliber, aircraft type, ring-mounted machineguns forward over the pilothouse, another 50-caliber machinegun mounted in piggyback fashion over an 81-millimeter mortar that is fixed to the afterdeck, and an M-60 light machinegun most often mounted on the sampson post at the bow in front of the pilothouse. The post has a mounting plate, which can also accommodate a Mark 19 forty-millimeter, rapid-fire grenade launcher.
These boats also carried an assortment of other lethal weapons. Fragmentation hand grenades were not permitted on the boats. Concussion grenades were plentiful as a deterrent to swimmers who might try to attack a boat.
The crew usually consisted of five enlisted personnel led by one officer-in-charge. This officer was normally an Ensign or a Lieutenant Junior Grade, 23 to 27 years old. All were volunteers and almost all of them developed a fierce love for their boats.
For all of its deadly weaponry and ordinance, Swift Boats were not armored except around the small magazine located on the centerline under the deck of the main cabin. The skin of a Swift could easily be penetrated by small arms fire and the enemy version of the rocket-propelled grenade could blow out the insides of any Swift Boat while killing or maiming its crew. |
http://www2.swiftvets.com/article.php?story=2004070119350511
Question is, Where did kerry get the fragmentation grenades he used on the caches of rice, resulting in one of his PH's? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
Probably from Rassman - at one point, Kerry wrote that he and Rassman had fragged some rice and he'd ended up with rice in his butt. Later that day was when the 3-boat got mined and Kerry pulled Rassman out of the water.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 9:33 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Question is, Where did kerry get the fragmentation grenades he used on the caches of rice, resulting in one of his PH's? |
The "hand grenades" which Kerry slung on his gear for his home movies to look like John Wayne, and which he and Rassmann apparently used to blow up the rice cache 13 March 1969 were not Swift standard issue.
These are not to be confused with the M-79 grenades which Kerry liked to fire off too close to his boats. These were Swift issue (and on 2 December 1968, Boston Whaler issue...) and were fired from a shotgun-like launcher (I know, I know, many of you are grimacing at this description, but I'm trying to keep it simple  ). |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Do we have a definitive statement that a frag was used on the rice instead of a concussion grenade. I'm not sure why they used any grenade on the rice but I would think the concussion grenade would do a better job of scattering the rice. Beyond scattering it what would be the object of 'blowing up' the rice?
_________________
A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| JN173 wrote: | | Do we have a definitive statement that a frag was used on the rice instead of a concussion grenade. I'm not sure why they used any grenade on the rice but I would think the concussion grenade would do a better job of scattering the rice. Beyond scattering it what would be the object of 'blowing up' the rice? |
I believe SBVFT maintain it was a concussion grenade, which makes sense as you point out (and might well have been carried on board a Swift boat - pinging Swiftees!). Kranish's book has Rassmann recalling the incident:
| Quote: | | At one point, Kerry and Rassmann threw grenades into a huge rice cache that had been captured from the Viet Cong and was thus slated for destruction. After tossing the grenades, the two dove for cover. Rassmann escaped the ensuing explosion of rice, but Kerry was not as lucky -- thousands of grains stuck to him. The result was hilarious, and the two men formed a bond. (Kranish et al., JFK, p. 105) |
No mention of shrapnel other than rice. Since Kerry refuses to release his medical reports we can only guess whether this rice was the "shrapnel" removed from his butt. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:06 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| jrsdad wrote: | | JN173 wrote: | | Do we have a definitive statement that a frag was used on the rice instead of a concussion grenade. I'm not sure why they used any grenade on the rice but I would think the concussion grenade would do a better job of scattering the rice. Beyond scattering it what would be the object of 'blowing up' the rice? |
I believe SBVFT maintain it was a concussion grenade, which makes sense as you point out (and might well have been carried on board a Swift boat - pinging Swiftees!). Kranish's book has Rassmann recalling the incident:
| Quote: | | At one point, Kerry and Rassmann threw grenades into a huge rice cache that had been captured from the Viet Cong and was thus slated for destruction. After tossing the grenades, the two dove for cover. Rassmann escaped the ensuing explosion of rice, but Kerry was not as lucky -- thousands of grains stuck to him. The result was hilarious, and the two men formed a bond. (Kranish et al., JFK, p. 105) |
No mention of shrapnel other than rice. Since Kerry refuses to release his medical reports we can only guess whether this rice was the "shrapnel" removed from his butt. |
Concussion, Smoke, and Anti-Personnel grenades were carried on all riverine boats.
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jrsdad
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 20 Aug 2004
Posts: 118
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Concussion, Smoke, and Anti-Personnel grenades were carried on all riverine boats. |
Thanks as usual, ASPB! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Herb
Lieutenant
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 4:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
| JN173 wrote: | | Do we have a definitive statement that a frag was used on the rice instead of a concussion grenade. I'm not sure why they used any grenade on the rice but I would think the concussion grenade would do a better job of scattering the rice. Beyond scattering it what would be the object of 'blowing up' the rice? |
A white phosphorous grenade while less commonly issued or available would likely have been a better choice for two reasons:
1) the rice would have been likely to start burning
2) the longer Delay (6 vs. 4 seconds) and smaller bursting radius would have been safer
Most people don't realize that a standard frag has a 35 METER burst radius. Apparently kerry didn't.
BTW, only an exceptional soldier under perfect conditions can throw one of them 40 meters.
_________________
Herb
Last edited by Herb on Sat Sep 04, 2004 1:26 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 5:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
My thoughts exactly, Herb. In the Army, we had pretty much all the "Willy Pete" we could use. Why they would have used anything else is well beyond me. Sounds like kids playing soldier and not knowing what they were doing.
_________________
Clark County Conservative |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wing Wiper
Rear Admiral
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 664
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Sounds like kids playing soldier and not knowing what they were doing. |
Bingo! How do we make that point to the public? Blowing up a rice cache with a grenade? That right there is rediculous. If they wanted to destroy it they should have brought a can of diesel fuel from the boat and soaked the rice, then burned it. A grenade makes a better game, though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Herb
Lieutenant
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 1:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Wing Wiper wrote: | | Quote: | | Sounds like kids playing soldier and not knowing what they were doing. |
Bingo! How do we make that point to the public? Blowing up a rice cache with a grenade? That right there is rediculous. If they wanted to destroy it they should have brought a can of diesel fuel from the boat and soaked the rice, then burned it. A grenade makes a better game, though. |
I do believe that Kerry (and maybe the Swiftvets here can say if this was just Kerry, all officers, or even the EMs) were NOT very well trained as "soldiers" in the way that SEALS, Marines, and infantry Army are.
Kerry explanation of the 1st Purple Heart incident makes it pretty clear that he has little concept of how to use an M-16 on automatic. ("walking fire in" with a rifle having 20-30 rounds max???).
Kerry makes them (or at least himself) sound like a spray & pray cowboy.
Have you folks read "Tour of Duty" and grasped how big awful Kerry's attitude is from BEFORE he even arrived in Vietnam?
One might excuse such in a drafted private, but this guy is an OFFICER -- he's supposed to be a leader.
_________________
Herb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Herb wrote: | | Wing Wiper wrote: | | Quote: | | Sounds like kids playing soldier and not knowing what they were doing. |
Bingo! How do we make that point to the public? Blowing up a rice cache with a grenade? That right there is rediculous. If they wanted to destroy it they should have brought a can of diesel fuel from the boat and soaked the rice, then burned it. A grenade makes a better game, though. |
I do believe that Kerry (and maybe the Swiftvets here can say if this was just Kerry, all officers, or even the EMs) were NOT very well trained as "soldiers" in the way that SEALS, Marines, and infantry Army are.
Kerry explanation of the 1st Purple Heart incident makes it pretty clear that he has little concept of how to use an M-16 on automatic. ("walking fire in" with a rifle having 20-30 rounds max???).
Kerry makes them (or at least himself) sound like a spray & pray cowboy.
Have you folks read "Tour of Duty" and grasped how big awful Kerry's attitude is from BEFORE he even arrived in Vietnam?
One might excuse such in a drafted private, but this guy is an OFFICER -- he's supposed to be a leader. |
Sorry Herb,
You're wrong. Even us Navy pukes had 16 weeks of specialized riverine combat training at Mare Island (Vallejo, Ca.) before going in country. It was called Naval Inshore Operations Training. For me, that included 2 weeks at Camp Roberts (King City, Ca) for small arms and heavy weapons training and a week at Whidbey Island (Washington) for SERE training.
Tom
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Herb
Lieutenant
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 213
Location: Austin, TX
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| ASPB wrote: | | Herb wrote: | | Wing Wiper wrote: | | Quote: | | Sounds like kids playing soldier and not knowing what they were doing. |
Bingo! How do we make that point to the public? Blowing up a rice cache with a grenade? That right there is rediculous. If they wanted to destroy it they should have brought a can of diesel fuel from the boat and soaked the rice, then burned it. A grenade makes a better game, though. |
I do believe that Kerry (and maybe the Swiftvets here can say if this was just Kerry, all officers, or even the EMs) were NOT very well trained as "soldiers" in the way that SEALS, Marines, and infantry Army are.
Kerry explanation of the 1st Purple Heart incident makes it pretty clear that he has little concept of how to use an M-16 on automatic. ("walking fire in" with a rifle having 20-30 rounds max???).
Kerry makes them (or at least himself) sound like a spray & pray cowboy.
Have you folks read "Tour of Duty" and grasped how big awful Kerry's attitude is from BEFORE he even arrived in Vietnam?
One might excuse such in a drafted private, but this guy is an OFFICER -- he's supposed to be a leader. |
Sorry Herb,
You're wrong. Even us Navy pukes had 16 weeks of specialized riverine combat training at Mare Island before going in country. It was called Naval Inshore Operations Training. For me, that included 2 weeks at Camp Roberts (King City, Ca) for small arms and heavy weapons training and a week at Whidbey Island (Washington) for SERE training.
Tom |
I presume you mean the answer to my question about "everyone" is "no".
Kerry himself sounds like a complete dufus with small arms and there is no explicit description of him learning them (in "Tour of Duty") in the officer course.
We also see in Kerry's "shooting" photo ops that he has NO CONCEPT of safe gun handling.
Did the officers have decent small arms training?
Kerry's SERE training is detailed in "Tour of Duty" and was the source for
proving Kerry had prior conscious knowledge of how the lies he delivered under oath at the 1971 Senate hearings could and would be used by the North Vietnamese who were holding and torturing American POWs.
_________________
Herb |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
|
| Posted: Sat Sep 04, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Swiftees had a similar program based in Coronado (San Diego, Ca.) Of course Kerry is a Dufus. Hell, he couldn't even get into a decent law school!  I doubt the man ever listened to anyone but his "internationist" State Dept. father in his entire life.
Most people suffering NPD, Like Corporal Adolph, are always that way.
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
TXBear
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 36
Location: New Waverly, TX
|
| Posted: Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
What is the first thing all military personnel are taught about your personal weapon. Do you call it a "gun" or a "rifle"? If you knew what was good for you it was called a "gun" one time only. In several instances I have read where kerry refers to his M16 as his "gun" not his "weapon" or his "rifle". I can't place my finger on the specific passage at the moment, but anyone that has read any of kerrys book or quotes in the Boston paper where his "diary" was reported has seen the same thing.
Point being, he just didn't care what he was taught, he was marking time and playing cowboys and indians with other peoples lives. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
