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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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 Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Hesiod wrote: |
So many lies. So little time.
1. Kerry met with BOTH sides of the peace negotiations in Paris. I suppose you could classify them as "enemy agents," but saying it that way sounds like he was a spy.
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Actually what Kerry said in front of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee was " I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks, that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Provisional Revolutionary Government".
Please note that the "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" was North Vietnam and the "Provisional Revolutionary Government" was the political arm of the Viet Cong. So who did he talk to on the other side?
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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boatsturley
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 9
Location: Syracuse, NY
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 10:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Hesiod wrote: | | boatsturley wrote: | I repete for those who are too dense to get it. John Kerry met with enemy agents in 1970, and testified falsely April 22nd, 1971, before the Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs. On April 18th, he appeared on "Meet the Press" with his bogus Vietnam Vet henchman Al Hubbard, and stated that he had commited war atrocities. The Kanasas City, MO meeting was held in November 1971. Kerry denies being there, but minutes of the meeting and FBI reports show that he was indeed there. Kerry claims he resigned from the VVAW in December of 1971, but he represented himself as a VVAW member while speaking at Dartmouth College on January 11, 1972. Again January 25, 1972, he represents the VVAW at the "People's State of the Union" in Washington, DC. Again on April 22, 1972...[exactly one year to the day after his lies before Congress] Kerry led the VVAW "Emergency March For Peace" in Bryant Park.
Kerry claims a lot of things, but his actions speak louder than his fabrications and lies.
POWs held by the communist North Vietnamese communists were told that Kerry and the anti-war groups were proof of American atrocities and war crimes.
The Communist Daily World featured many Kerry activities, and front paged Kerry publicly speaking in support of the PRGs [VC] seven point plan.
All the while Kerry was a sworn officer of the U.S.Navy reserves and NOT a journalist, nor a government pundit. Sorry HanoiJohn, but you pathetic attempt to down play the damage you did and hide your bloody hands will not wash with those of us who know what you are. |
So many lies. So little time.
1. Kerry met with BOTH sides of the peace negotiations in Paris. I suppose you could classify them as "enemy agents," but saying it that way sounds like he was a spy.
2. I note you didn't say that John Kerry "lied" before the Senate Foreign Relatioins Committee in 1971. That's because you know he didn't lie. It turns out that, years later, some of the Winter Soldiers testimony that Kerry related was indeed "false." But Kerry had no reason to believe that, at the time.
3. John Kerry, himself, went after Al Hubbard within the VVAW organization, accusing him of lying about his military record and being too radical. To say he was his "henchman" is a bald misstatement. Kerry was angry at Hubbard for lying, and tried to kick him out of VVAW. Kerry lost that struggle, and that was one reason, among others, he quit the leadership of the VVAW.
4. Kerry says he doesn't remember being at the Kansas City VVAW meeting in November 1971, but accepts that he probably was based on other witnesses. Maybe that's a fudge. But what is not in doubt is that at that meeting he argued strenusouly against the radicalization of the VVAW, and abruptly quit the leadership, aloing with a few others. He did say he would speak out against the war, on VVAW's behalf. But he severed all formal ties with the organization at that meeting. That's why he gave speeches. Interesting enough, many VVAW members resented the fact that Kerry was holding himself out as a VVAW member when he wasn't formally affiliated with them any longer.
5. The Vietnamese didn't need John Kerry to prove that U.S. soldiers had committed atrocities in Vietnam. All they had to do was read about My Lai. Why don't you Vietnam vets rant and rave about Lt. Calley like you do about Kerry? He did a hell of a lot more damage to the war effort than Kerry ever did.
You also have to remember that the country was already firmal AGAINST the war before anybody had even heard of John Kerry.
I suggest you get over it and move on with your lives. |
Kerry has not "moved on" he has built a political career upon the lies he testified to and his fabricated combat record. He has climbed to political ladder upon the bodies and blood of thousands of honorable men and women. For this there can be no forgetting nor forgiving. The spirits of those he defamed cry out for justice and now some 33+ years later he brings himself to the dock for examination before the world. He is a "Benedict Arnold" of the first order and unfit to speak on behalf of any Veteran who served honorably.
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Michael Turley, BM2
PCF "Swift Boat" 15, Chu Lai, DaNang, '67-'68 |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:25 pm Post subject: |
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| boatsturley wrote: | | Hesiod wrote: | | I suggest you get over it and move on with your lives. |
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Condescending bit of crap, hm?
| boatsturley wrote: |
Kerry has not "moved on" he has built a political career upon the lies he testified to and his fabricated combat record. He has climbed to political ladder upon the bodies and blood of thousands of honorable men and women. For this there can be no forgetting nor forgiving. The spirits of those he defamed cry out for justice and now some 33+ years later he brings himself to the dock for examination before the world. He is a "Benedict Arnold" of the first order and unfit to speak on behalf of any Veteran who served honorably. |
BZ's, Boats!!!! Bring the issue back to the forefront!
Never forget!
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Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:38 pm Post subject: |
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No doubt about it: Kerry's record in Vietnam is the Achilles heel of the Bush campaign, especially when you consider all the sacrifices Bush made during that time.
No wonder so much effort is being put into smearing Kerry's service. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue May 11, 2004 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | No doubt about it: Kerry's record in Vietnam is the Achilles heel of the Bush campaign, especially when you consider all the sacrifices Bush made during that time.
No wonder so much effort is being put into smearing Kerry's service. |
No doubt about it, Kerry's record after leaving Vietnam is the Achilles' heel of the Kerry campaign, expecially when you consider all the sacrifices made by the soldiers of that era, all the families of the soldiers of that era.
Do you want to talk about the POW/MIA issue, too?
No wonder so much effort is being put into smearing the people who started this site and this forum.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 12:00 am Post subject: |
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| hist/student wrote: |
As a side note, While watching 'Forrest Gump' I went from ammused (it's a well crafted film) to disgusted....
I was disgusted by the total lack of accuracy portraying the march on washington depicted in the film.
By the time the 'protesters' got out of the city every single monmument and statue in the city was defaced with profane grafitti in spray paint.
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If you have to lie to make your point.... |
When the cops lied on the stand I thought it a shame for them that they did not think that they had good enough case to win honestly.
There were various sorts of protesters back then. Some more or less dedicated than others and some on little leadership power trips. It is a shame that people are not more educted in the nature of when poser positions are created that power freaks will aspire to them - and not necessarily by honest means and the 'cause' may well be secondary to their personal thing.
There were certainly idiots and it only would take a few in a group to discredit the whold group - and the unscrupulous will certainly exploit that to label the group for sake of a few.
Even at the first peace riot I ever attended I'd thought that if I were an advocate for "the other side" I might get in position in the crowd to try to instigate some violence.
At later times and events I wondered about some of the violence and advocates to do stupid things who could not be reasoned with at all.
It is known well enough that Nixon had his "Dirty Tricks Comittee" back then. And it is known well enough that Hoovers FBI had about everything infiltrated back then and aside from what is known there have always been very much rumors about various stunts them infiltrators would pull to discredit a group. Steering the group to violent direction and then busting them who they set up was - is not all that uncommon. They rarely get caught and the gullible would like to believe that the few times a thing is exposed is all there is ot it then.
Aside from what you quote I could provide you with some more in relation to such things as 'creative ignorance' where one might know enough of a thing to avoid knowing more than they must so they can avoid responsibility. - What was that one recent story - fellow claimed the officer seen the near dead fellow and said to get rid of it "I didn't see anything."
Damn but I heard that phrase a lot in the Army and at jobs since then "I didn't see anything." - Hell if that remark does not have a familiar ring to it I would say the person hearing it has just never been much of anywhere. |
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Wondering
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 19
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 1:00 am Post subject: |
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So Kerry stepped down from a leadership role in the VVAW and would only represent them?
Is that like Sinn Fein the political wing of the IRA?
Why would you even represent them or have anything to do with them if they are conspiring to kill your elected officials?
The fact that he would come home and make statements whistle blowing on his fellow soldiers (which is commendable if atrocities are being carried out), but not blow the whistle on the VVAW should show you exactly what this man is:
An opportunist of the highest order. Who will say or do anything to get what he wants. (And I think his womanizing and marrying patterns will attest to that as well.)
Kerry only seems to do things if he thinks it will win votes. He joins the war (after his deferment was denied I might ad) because he thinks it will look good on his political record. Then the war grows unpopular so he turns against it in an apparent bid for power. Scary if a man like that is in charge. Not because he does what he thinks the people want, but because he is unpredictable. I can't believe out of all the fine democrats they had to choose from this joke is the front runner.
I am not anti any party, both sides have much to offer. I am however anti-Kerry, as I seem him as shady character. |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | By the time the 'protesters' got out of the city every single monmument and statue in the city was defaced with profane grafitti in spray paint. |
Must have been the FBI plants who permeated the antiwar movement. God knows, they were inciting much of the violence. |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:07 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | | And Greenhat, you don't know that Kerry didn't report that meeting to the FBI or that Kerry wasn't aware that there was an FBI agent there with them. |
Actually, yes, I do. The FBI has released their records regarding the subject. Kerry did not report it.
And do you really believe that if he had filed a report, that his campaign wouldn't have publicized that?
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:52 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Actually, yes, I do. The FBI has released their records regarding the subject. Kerry did not report it. |
You read all 21,477 pages? I hate to break it to you, but just because you hadn't heard something doesn't mean it can't exist. Those who have reviewed the FBI records haven't reported anything except that the FBI didn't have anything bad to say about him. They considered him charismatic and eloquent, in fact. |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:56 am Post subject: |
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And what the FBI released was the VVAW files, not the entire Kerry record. The LA Times reports:
| Quote: | | The Kerry campaign released a portion of the senator's personal FBI file, including a May 1972 memorandum in which the agency concluded its monitoring of Kerry, saying that "a review of the subject's file reveals nothing whatsoever to link subject with any violent type activity." |
| Quote: | | FBI informants at the Kansas City meetings also refer to "extremely significant information indicating vastly more militant posture of the VVAW." But the reports offer no specifics. |
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-kerryfbi7may07,1,997215.story?coll=la-headlines-nation |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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Still avoiding the fact that Kerry failed in his duty as a citizen and a Naval Officer to report the meeting. Keep spinning, it doesn't change the facts (btw, where do you think a report on a VVAW meeting would be but in the VVAW file?).
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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I don't know that Kerry failed to report the meeting. Just because you say so doesn't change things. You hear all kinds of weird stuff on the Internet.
If all records by the FBI pertaining to Kerry were released, why did the Kerry campaign release a portion of the senator's personal FBI file, including a May 1972 memorandum in which the agency concluded its monitoring of Kerry, saying that "a review of the subject's file reveals nothing whatsoever to link subject with any violent type activity.
Why bother releasing part of something that's now public domain in its entirety? |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | I don't know that Kerry failed to report the meeting. Just because you say so doesn't change things. You hear all kinds of weird stuff on the Internet.
If all records by the FBI pertaining to Kerry were released, why did the Kerry campaign release a portion of the senator's personal FBI file, including a May 1972 memorandum in which the agency concluded its monitoring of Kerry, saying that "a review of the subject's file reveals nothing whatsoever to link subject with any violent type activity.
Why bother releasing part of something that's now public domain in its entirety? |
You just don't reason very well, do you?
I didn't say that all of Kerry's files were released. I said that a report on a meeting of the VVAW, even if given by Kerry, would have appeared in the VVAW file (probably a copy in both). Since the entire VVAW file was released, and no report from J.F. Kerry appears in it, he didn't file one. Not to mention that he has never claimed that he filed one. Actually, he lied about attending the meeting for decades. So he failed in his duty. It really is pretty simple.
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95 bxl
Seaman
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 7:17 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | No doubt about it: Kerry's record in Vietnam is the Achilles heel of the Bush campaign, especially when you consider all the sacrifices Bush made during that time.
No wonder so much effort is being put into smearing Kerry's service. |
Right tendon... wrong foot. Kerry's self-admitted war crimes will ultimately cost him the election. Well, that and being a socialist, flip-flopping liar.
I wonder if you people felt this strongly about Clinton's draft dodging?
Sheeshhh... why do I even bother to ask. |
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