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Wondering
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 19
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 Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 3:51 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | You're not hearing much about Iraq in this forum because it's a quagmire and it's turning into a complete and utter debacle. Our former allies now fear us and according to polls, consider us a threat to world peace. Our soldiers are being shown all over the Arab world with naked stacks of Iraqis. At least one hostage has been taken.
And we're breeding legions of Al Queda terrorists who want to help Bin Ladin when they grow up.
Conservatives, who ordinarly feel the need to defend Bush, don't want to get into the nitty gritty. |
First off I have several family members over in Iraq right now and their reports home do not echo what you see in the news. The news feeds off of negative content (not just in Iraq, in all stories). That is why you see 45 minutes of blood and guts and 15 minutes of cute and fuzzy.
The entire country is not falling apart, there are isolated pockets of resistance. The majority of Iraqi' people just want to live their lives and have this process over, but are happy it was done. Obviously the abuse pictures have stirred up some animosity, but the open minded will see that the U.S. is not like Saddam and the people responsible for these acts will pay for it(Unfortunately so will those not responsible).
As for the polls I have never paid them any mind. An educated person knows that the questions are phrased to suit whatever agenda the poll taker wants to satisfy. Statistics are generally composed by humans sorting out/in certain factors and are flawed and unreliable.
As for breeding legions of Al Qaeda recruits that is also only partially true. You are leaving out the fact that we are also breeding equal numbers of Al Qaeda adversaries. There will be an equal number of Al Qaeda adversaries because they will see first hand the goals of the Al Qaeda movement and it's need to kill with impunity and no sanctity for life, Muslim or not. Under oppression (from either religion or government) people are radicalized. By giving them freedom and the ability to mold their own future you will see modern men rise out of this region, not the radicals you see today.
As for conservatives who don't want to see the nitty gritty, maybe they wish to see the reality and not get off topic.
To get back on topic: My question to you would be who are you voting for and what are your reasons for voting for him (If you could give reasons for voting for him and not against the other guy that would be helpful)? |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:30 am Post subject: |
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We are fighting World War IV. We either win, or we will all bow to Mecca 5 times a day (if we survive at all).
I firmly believe that of the choices available, G.W. Bush is not only the best choice, but that the strategy being used in this war is the only one that has a chance of success.
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:30 am Post subject: |
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| mikest wrote: | Carpro
you are wrong. The only way we are going to get a grip on Iraq is if we have another 100,000 troops, and there is no way Bush will spend that kind of political capital. I wish you were right, but there are far too many people and places to hide.
Blame whoever you want but this admin did not listen to the people who knew what they were talking about. Instead they listened to the people who told them what they wanted to hear. |
Maybe, but you can believe this, people like Ted Kennedy are endangering the life of your friend. You don't understand, Mike . I've seen this act before. Only that time, it was Kerry and his ilk. The enemy watches the US news on TV closer than we do.
I still hope your friend comes home safely.
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Greenhat
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | You're not hearing much about Iraq in this forum because it's a quagmire and it's turning into a complete and utter debacle. Our former allies now fear us and according to polls, consider us a threat to world peace. Our soldiers are being shown all over the Arab world with naked stacks of Iraqis. At least one hostage has been taken.
And we're breeding legions of Al Queda terrorists who want to help Bin Ladin when they grow up.
Conservatives, who ordinarly feel the need to defend Bush, don't want to get into the nitty gritty. |
A quagmire? Sorry, no. I know hundreds of people over there. Noone thinks it is a quagmire. It's steadily improving (although the recent POW thing is a set-back without question).
Breeding terrorists? Actually, we are killing terrorists and reducing the breeding grounds. Some through fear, some through other methods.
As for the nitty-gritty, I'll be quite willing to get into it with you. Better be prepared though, because I do know what it takes to defeat a terrorist organization and do understand logistics, and both of those are essential to the war strategy choice. If you can't clearly detail alternatives that take those into account, you'd be better not to try.
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:42 am Post subject: |
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You're right. I see the light at the end of the tunnel as we speak!
And I'm glad to hear the conservatives here are familiar with what's happening in the slums of Cairo and the streets of Mecca to know that the pile of Iraqis are just the price we must pay for freedom and that radical extremist Muslims aren't successfully using it as a recruitment tool. |
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sparky
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Wondering
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 May 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:45 am Post subject: |
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Actually during my drive to Jack in the Box I thought I should also state this:
I have dual citizenship in both America and Ireland and I can tell you this. Anti-Americanism is on the rise in Europe. However, this is not the sole work of George and the war in Iraq. Anti-Americanism, Anti-Semitism, and Anti- everything not European or from ones homeland is on the rise. This started rising dramatically after the creation of the European union. The European union knows that it's greatest competitor for a slice of the global economy will be the U.S. (similar to the Anti-Japanese sentiments in America during the '80's and '90's). Now Japan wasn't a hyper-power like the U.S. is now, throwing even more resentment our way.
The second contributing factor to the rise in anti-Americanism is the erosion of ones national identity into a larger conglomerate. This affects the actor in one of two ways or both. First they struggle with the loss or future loss of their national identity and in many cases are radicalized. Second, in becoming part of the larger conglomerate they are filled with patriotism and radicalized into the new system with the hope of greater change and prosperity.
We do not live in a vacuum. There are thousands of forces at work that contribute to public opinion. George Bush did not turn the world against America. Everything from the Corporate Americanization of the world, to the American media invasion (I.E. Baywatch, movies, etc.), to the average American's ignorance of what is going on in the rest of the world. Yes, George has swung many in Europe away from their support of America, but George has one main problem right now. Radical Islam. Everything else is second. |
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Wondering
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:49 am Post subject: |
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I now see your problem. Try doing unbiased searches. Your are doing yourself a great disservice as you are not getting the full picture. |
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Greenhat
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Wondering
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 4:53 am Post subject: |
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| Sparky when are you going to get around to telling us who you are voting for and why? That is the topic of this thread and the red hearings are getting boring. And what's with the conservative this and conservative that? Are you a radical? Radicalism is bad mate, in any form. Check yourself before you wreck yourself. |
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Wondering
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:01 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | | And I'm glad to hear the conservatives here are familiar with what's happening in the slums of Cairo and the streets of Mecca to know that the pile of Iraqis are just the price we must pay for freedom and that radical extremist Muslims aren't successfully using it as a recruitment tool. |
You bring up a good point. One of my homelands was racked with violence. You know what the driving force behind that was? Poverty. Notice once Ireland's GDP became one of the highest in Europe the bombings stopped. HMMMM fancy that. It's just real hard to get people to blow stuff up or kill and maim when they are driving a nice new BMW. The recruitment tool in the middle east is poverty. And who is to blame for that since most of the countries have extreme wealth, but it is isolated to a select few? Their governments and their elite class. |
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sparky
Former Member
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Posts: 546
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:11 am Post subject: |
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Hey, Greenhat said "Noone thinks it is a quagmire" and I just wanted to set the record straight. Sorry if I ruffled any feathers, but he was off by 128,000! 
Wondering asks me to "Try doing unbiased searches." Ok, I'll do the Ann Coulter technique:
"not a quagmire" Iraq on google: 904 hits
On google news: 5 hits
Looks like a quagmire to me!
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22not+a+quagmire%22+iraqhttp://news.google.com/news?q=%22not%20a%20quagmire%22%20iraq&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=wn
As for the slums of Cairo, try to remember that the elite class there consists of US allies. Their ours. This isn't lost on those who are recruiting terrorists in the slums.
As for the Saudis and their elites, I wouldn't recommend that Bush supporters bring up Saudi elites. |
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Greenhat
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Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:18 am Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | I know hundreds of people over there. Noone thinks it is a quagmire. |
Seems you missed that these comments are linked, Sparky. I'm referring to those there, not to you and your fellow armchair Generals.
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JasonBinPNW
Ensign
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 58
Location: Vancouver (not BC), Washington (Not DC)
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:21 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | | As for the Saudis and their elites, I wouldn't recommend that Bush supporters bring up Saudi elites. |
Are you refering to the new tinfoil hat theory that "Bush fixed oil prices to fall towards the elections?"
I love that one.
I have my own tinfoil hat theory:
You know those "World Leaders" that Kerry says he talked to, but won't identify? Well, I think he made a deal to return to the status quo in the ME if OPEC keeps the prices up through the election season... or at least until he can get the word out that the Bush campaign is "keeping gas prices up" per se.
hey, it's my tinfoil hat against yours, and I like mine better. Both theories are equally valid with the evidence (or lack there of) supporting them.
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Semper Fi!
Jason
Proud member of "The Vast Right-Wing Conspiracy" |
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eecee
Ensign
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Wed May 12, 2004 5:27 am Post subject: |
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Oh my, I actually did laugh out loud at that one ! Too funny ! |
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