SwiftVets.com

[waltjones]

... and he never did answer my question as to whether he agreed with Kerry's slander, so I guess that makes oldkayaker's post's irrelevant. If oldkayaker thinks his one isolated incident, with no resultant casualties, in any way validates what Kerry said, he needs a little instruction in elementary logic. Nobody is trying to tear down a veteran who served his country; we're out to destroy the career of a liar, a traitor and a &*%$ that dishonored the Iwo Jima memorial. His 4 months in-country was no doubt the most honorable time of that sorry person's life.

Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[garb1015]

I was at Camp Eagle in 1970, the HQ for the 101st Airmobile.
We were told when on guard duty that the entire area around the base was a free fire zone and that all of the locals were well aware of that fact. Guard duty was a listening post since you usually couldn't see your hand in front of your face.
If you heard noises you would call the command bunker and ask for illumination. But most of us were in agreement though, that if we really thought someone was out there we would not hesitate to open fire.
We felt it was better to be alive and answer for your actions in the morning. In the 9 mos. I was at Eagle I never heard of one time that a local villager had been fired on.
I can't comment on FFZ's in other parts of the country.

[oldkayaker]

Thanks Garb

Your comments are truthful and very refreshing.

[oldkayaker]

To Jones

Scroll up a few notches...your question was answered.

[waltjones]

I respectfully disagree, but since we both seem to be so stubborn we might as well leave it at that. I will say that I believe your account and that any reports such as yours constitute a valuable part of our history. I don't , however, agree with your assessment of how your story relates to Kerry's testimony (and yes, I did go back and read it; I simply disagree).

Thanks and Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[JN173]

[oldkayaker]

jn173 and Jones

If you want Kerry to explain his points...ask him.

I can only relate what my Vietnam experiences meant to me and how some of what I understand Kerry's comments meant to me.

Can we at least agree that Vietnam was not fought in a winning manner?

Can we at least agree that the policies put in place by McNamara and others were not reasonable?

Can we at least agree that Vietnam was fought in a stupid, winless manner? Can we agree that there was no front line, that the Vietnam war should have been brought to the north on the land, in the air and on the water? That like Korea...there should have been a northern invasion, an established line of us vs. them. Can we at least agree on those points?

Then, if we can agree on all the above, I say, the combat situation into which the US government put its military in Vietnam was untenable and unwinable. That fighting without lines with the enemy not clearly marked was a terrible situation in which to put a soldier or sailor.

And the resulting policy misuse and other acts beyond the scoop of those well meaning ROEs was the fallout of this terrible situation...and resulting in lots of frustrated troops and lots of waste of good people.

I think Kerry saw all the above and in his way tried to express his frustration when he had a chance to do so. With all the above in mind, its that frustration that I see when I read his testimony.

[waltjones]

So ... frustration leads to lies (see quotes above) leads to immeasurable harm to his comrades-in-arms .... oh, I get it now - I shouldn't be angry with Kerry at all ... unless, of course, I couldn't ignore his treason and dishonor ... wow, thanks, oldkayaker! I sure feel better now!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[oldkayaker]

Jones

You are fighting someone else's war...on this BB. Think for yourself.

[waltjones]

oldkayaker: I believe I'm thinking for myself much more than you are. What I wonder is how can you live with yourself? Please read below next to my name, and understand. You might also scroll down and read JN173's supplied quotes by your buddy; you accept that a man who said that garbage should be CIC? If you truly believe that, I pity you, for you sorely lack something very important, just like Kerry.

Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[waltjones]

for oldkayaker's convenience:

John Kerry – Meet the Press April 18, 1971

“There are all kinds of atrocities and I would have to say that yes, yes I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones, I conducted harassment and interdiction fire, I used 50 caliber machine guns which we were granted ordered to use which were our only weapon against people, I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare. All of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written, established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zones, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.”

John Kerry – Dick Cavett Show 6/30/1971

"Free fire zone, in which we kill anything that moves – man, woman or child. This practice suspends the distinction between combatant and non-combatant and contravenes Geneva Convention Article 3.1."

John Kerry – Dick Cavett Show 6/30/1971

"Yes, we did participate in war crimes in Coastal Division 11 because as I said earlier, we took part in free fire zones, harassment, interdiction fire, and search-and-destroy missions."

John Kerry – Senate Foreign Relations 4/23/1971

"in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged, and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

And this is what you're trying to minimize? No apology necessary? Fit for CIC? I guess some people can forgive anything, especially for political reasons.
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[oldkayaker]

Jones and JN173

I read your qoutes, if you want Kerry to explain his points...ask him.

I can only relate what my Vietnam experiences meant to me and how some of what I understand Kerry's comments meant to me.

But, you have avoided my requests for points of agreement:

Can we at least agree that Vietnam was not fought in a winning manner?

Can we at least agree that the policies put in place by McNamara and others were not reasonable?

Can we at least agree that Vietnam was fought in a stupid, winless manner? Can we agree that there was no front line, that the Vietnam war should have been brought to the north on the land, in the air and on the water? That like Korea...there should have been a northern invasion, an established line of us vs. them. Can we at least agree on those points?

Then, if we can agree on all the above, I say, the combat situation into which the US government put its military in Vietnam was untenable and unwinable. That fighting without lines with the enemy not clearly marked was a terrible situation in which to put a soldier or sailor.

And the resulting policy misuse and other acts beyond the scoop of those well meaning ROEs was the fallout of this terrible situation...and resulting in lots of frustrated troops and lots of waste of good people.

I think Kerry saw all the above and in his way tried to express his frustration when he had a chance to do so. With all the above in mind, its that frustration that I see when I read his testimony.

[ASPB]

[oldkayaker]

Thanks ASPB

For confirming what this is all about.. Politics!

I thought so!

Since you chose to ignore my points of agreement*, I will go on without your input.

I believe there was a lot wrong with the way the Vietnam War was fought. Apparently, you think it was fought correctly. And thats the crux of the matter here. I can't believe you and the Hoffman O'Neill group really wanted the Vietnam War to go on , and on, and on as it was being fought*! But, apparently you all did!

Well I think Kerry didn't want the waste of people (American and Vietnamese) to go on, and on, and on. Kerry saw how incorrectly the war was being conducted (see points below*) and when he had the opportunity, he testified to people he probably thought would care and tried to correct the mistakes. I didn't understand fully or have the courage to speak to my elected representatives when I was Kerry's age, did you? I think he tried to take on too much.

Soooo....there you have it O'Neill/Hoffman people, you thought the Vietnam War was being conducted correctly and apparently you can not agree with the points listed below*.

(*)Can we at least agree that Vietnam was not fought in a winning manner?

Can we at least agree that the policies put in place by McNamara and others were not reasonable?

Can we at least agree that Vietnam was fought in a stupid, winless manner? Can we agree that there was no front line, that the Vietnam war should have been brought to the north on the land, in the air and on the water? That like Korea...there should have been a northern invasion, an established line of us vs. them. Can we at least agree on those points?

Then, if we can agree on all the above, I say, the combat situation into which the US government put its military in Vietnam was untenable and unwinable. That fighting without lines with the enemy not clearly marked was a terrible situation in which to put a soldier or sailor.

And the resulting policy misuse and other acts beyond the scoop of those well meaning ROEs was the fallout of this terrible situation...and resulting in lots of frustrated troops and lots of waste of good people.

Oldkayaker / John

[Me#1You#10]

Moderator note:

Please excuse this off-topic interruption, but there is a post within this page that contains an element whose "formatting" is causing the normal "word-wrapping" to fail and creating a window requiring presentation of a horizontal scroll bar.

Anyone here versed enough in this medium to point out the causative element?

Thanks