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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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 Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:58 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
You were on PCF-23 on Feb 28, not Kerry's 94.
Absolutely correct, and I have said so here at least several times.
My mistake -- I wasn't reading what you asked closely.
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Reason I asked is because you had this to say on Jan 18, 2002:
"As of Feb 28, 1969, we began joining them on some of their patrols. When I say "we", I mean the local Vietnamese and a few of us advisors. This was due to the fact that the Swift Boats had gotten their clocked clean on at least one occasion, and thought it might be a good idea to have someone on their boats who could assist them if and when they had to do something other than tool along the canals and shoot their .50 cal.
"There were 3-5 Swift boats, so sometimes I would be on Kerry's boat, sometimes not. These would be for periods, usually, of a about 6-8 hours, although there were a couple of times where we went out to the LST (talk about FOOD - we were in heaven!) and spent the night so we could go all the way to the bottom of the district for a more extensive operation."
You were never on a boat with Kerry, period. Let's see another great Kerry-spin from you like the one you offered earlier for the number of Kerry office visits you have made when you have tried to downplay your Kerry contacts as being only one meeting with him back in '88.
Would I be assuming too much to think you have personally or business wise benefitted from ties (directly/indirectly) to Sen. Kerry?
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:44 am Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
You were on PCF-23 on Feb 28, not Kerry's 94.
Absolutely correct, and I have said so here at least several times.
My mistake -- I wasn't reading what you asked closely.
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Reason I asked is because you had this to say on Jan 18, 2002:
"As of Feb 28, 1969, we began joining them on some of their patrols. When I say "we", I mean the local Vietnamese and a few of us advisors. This was due to the fact that the Swift Boats had gotten their clocked clean on at least one occasion, and thought it might be a good idea to have someone on their boats who could assist them if and when they had to do something other than tool along the canals and shoot their .50 cal.
"There were 3-5 Swift boats, so sometimes I would be on Kerry's boat, sometimes not. These would be for periods, usually, of a about 6-8 hours, although there were a couple of times where we went out to the LST (talk about FOOD - we were in heaven!) and spent the night so we could go all the way to the bottom of the district for a more extensive operation."
You were never on a boat with Kerry, period. Let's see another great Kerry-spin from you like the one you offered earlier for the number of Kerry office visits you have made when you have tried to downplay your Kerry contacts as being only one meeting with him back in '88.
Would I be assuming too much to think you have personally or business wise benefitted from ties (directly/indirectly) to Sen. Kerry?
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Hmm, I'm assuming that post came from alt.war.vietnam, but if that's what I said (the key word being "if"), then it's wrong, obviously.
I never knew until recently as to when Kerry left Vietnam. While we did go out with the Swifts a number of times, I can't imagine why I would say what boat I was on, as I didn't remember.
I have met John Kerry twice since returning from Vietnam. As I told you, once in 1988 for about 30 minutes, and once a few years later for a few seconds.
Other visits to his office were as stated, and your attempts to prove otherwise won't succeed.
Would that I benefited from our mini-relationship, but alas, I haven't.
But don't let that stop you from trying to prove any of this. Keep plugging away with those old posts. While you're at it, go on over to alt.war.vietnam and ask those guys what a big liar I am.
Doug |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:11 am Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | The bandit wrote: | | DougReese wrote: |
You were on PCF-23 on Feb 28, not Kerry's 94.
Absolutely correct, and I have said so here at least several times.
My mistake -- I wasn't reading what you asked closely.
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Reason I asked is because you had this to say on Jan 18, 2002:
"As of Feb 28, 1969, we began joining them on some of their patrols. When I say "we", I mean the local Vietnamese and a few of us advisors. This was due to the fact that the Swift Boats had gotten their clocked clean on at least one occasion, and thought it might be a good idea to have someone on their boats who could assist them if and when they had to do something other than tool along the canals and shoot their .50 cal.
"There were 3-5 Swift boats, so sometimes I would be on Kerry's boat, sometimes not. These would be for periods, usually, of a about 6-8 hours, although there were a couple of times where we went out to the LST (talk about FOOD - we were in heaven!) and spent the night so we could go all the way to the bottom of the district for a more extensive operation."
You were never on a boat with Kerry, period. Let's see another great Kerry-spin from you like the one you offered earlier for the number of Kerry office visits you have made when you have tried to downplay your Kerry contacts as being only one meeting with him back in '88.
Would I be assuming too much to think you have personally or business wise benefitted from ties (directly/indirectly) to Sen. Kerry?
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Hmm, I'm assuming that post came from alt.war.vietnam, but if that's what I said (the key word being "if"), then it's wrong, obviously.
I never knew until recently as to when Kerry left Vietnam. While we did go out with the Swifts a number of times, I can't imagine why I would say what boat I was on, as I didn't remember.
I have met John Kerry twice since returning from Vietnam. As I told you, once in 1988 for about 30 minutes, and once a few years later for a few seconds.
Other visits to his office were as stated, and your attempts to prove otherwise won't succeed.
Would that I benefited from our mini-relationship, but alas, I haven't.
But don't let that stop you from trying to prove any of this. Keep plugging away with those old posts. While you're at it, go on over to alt.war.vietnam and ask those guys what a big liar I am.
Doug |
Bandit,
I know you're as intense about this issue as I am but why don't you give Doug a break. He may be a Kerry supporter but a 35 year old faulty memory, like mine, doesn't make him a fraud and a liar. Wardog has already told you he has a copy of Doug's DD214 or other documentary evidence of his service.
What matters to me is not so much the "fog of battle" details as why, given what was obviously bad judgement and probably in opposition to standing orders, was he awarded a Silver Star.
Key questions for me are: Did he recommend himself for the an award? Did his political connections or pure arrogance have anything to do with it being awarded?
Doug can't answer these questions. Contact George Elliot, Roy Hoffman, or the remaining OinCs or crews from the mission if you think you can trust fogged 35 year old memories.
I can tell you from a year on the rivers in command of boats that beaching the boat was wrong and leaving his command was wrong. That's the truth... but mistakes are made. I made a bunch. Fortunately they didn't kill me or my crews.
Nuff said.
respectfully,
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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jalexson
PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:44 am Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: |
Bandit,
I know you're as intense about this issue as I am but why don't you give Doug a break. He may be a Kerry supporter but a 35 year old faulty memory, like mine, doesn't make him a fraud and a liar. Wardog has already told you he has a copy of Doug's DD214 or other documentary evidence of his service.
What matters to me is not so much the "fog of battle" details as why, given what was obviously bad judgement and probably in opposition to standing orders, was he awarded a Silver Star.
Key questions for me are: Did he recommend himself for the an award? Did his political connections or pure arrogance have anything to do with it being awarded?
Doug can't answer these questions. Contact George Elliot, Roy Hoffman, or the remaining OinCs or crews from the mission if you think you can trust fogged 35 year old memories.
I can tell you from a year on the rivers in command of boats that beaching the boat was wrong and leaving his command was wrong. That's the truth... but mistakes are made. I made a bunch. Fortunately they didn't kill me or my crews.
Nuff said.
respectfully, |
Great Post!!
I agree. Doug is not making Kerry look good with his account anyway. If anything Doug has added another reason why Kerry should have been punished rather than given a silver star. Maybe it was only a training mission, but Kerry was expected to go to another location and meet additional troops. If his delay had resulted in those other troops being killed, there would have been no way for Kerry to avoid court martial.
_________________
"That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoe making and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poor house."
-- Mark Twain |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:37 am Post subject: |
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| jalexson wrote: |
Great Post!!
I agree. Doug is not making Kerry look good with his account anyway. If anything Doug has added another reason why Kerry should have been punished rather than given a silver star. Maybe it was only a training mission, but Kerry was expected to go to another location and meet additional troops. If his delay had resulted in those other troops being killed, there would have been no way for Kerry to avoid court martial. |
Then again, my purpose isn't to make Kerry look good, but to tell what I know about that incident, and to separate fact from the significant amount of fiction floating around out there.
But no problem on us getting to where we were going to meet the other Vietnamese troops (Congratulations, though, as you were definitely paying attention  ) Besides the fact that we were going to have to wait for them after we got up there, those guys knew what was happening with us. So when they knew what was going on, they returned to the village.
I don't think, from everything I have read, that there was any thought to him being punished.
Keep in mind, the very next time we went out with them, and coincidentally to almost the exact same spot (but on the other side of the canal), we got off the boats again. If it was such a no-no, why would that have happened?
Doug |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Let's move on from this point! We've all beaten this dead horse long enough. Enough about Doug's memory and his account of what happened. None of us at our ages can remember and be 100% correct of what happened over 35 years ago.
If ya'll can't move on from this topic, and debate or discuss something else other than if Doug was right or wrong on what happened, then this thread will be locked.
Fair enough? Make sense?
Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:38 pm Post subject: |
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| War Dog wrote: | Let's move on from this point! We've all beaten this dead horse long enough. Enough about Doug's memory and his account of what happened. None of us at our ages can remember and be 100% correct of what happened over 35 years ago.
If ya'll can't move on from this topic, and debate or discuss something else other than if Doug was right or wrong on what happened, then this thread will be locked.
Fair enough? Make sense?
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I have very strong REASON's to believe Reese is pulling a fast one over all vet's. I've read more then 100 of his posts on Kerry and the Feb 28. Reese's problem isn't his memory. He had a very good reason for wanting others to believe he was on Kerry's boat and it had nothing to do with his memory: HE was asked what kind of guy KERRY was and he had to make it convincing that he had first hand knowledge that KERRY was a great guy. GET IT?
Remember Al Hubbard War Dog? He could prove he was in the service but that did not mean everything that came out of his mouth was the truth. Did Al Hubbard have a memory problem??????
If you want to appease Reese and make him out as a good ol' boy with a memory problem, fine, you just do that #War Dog.
I am OUT OF HERE, I am not going to stand by and let Doug "Hubbard" Reese go unchallenged and treated with respect he dosesn't deserve. |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:49 pm Post subject: |
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Bandit, I fully understand what you are saying, but it's not productive to keep beating the same issue to death. If you want to leave, do so, it's your choice. But, this issue of weither Doug is right or wrong on what happened over 35 years ago has been covered from all angles. If you can come up with something new, by all means post it in a new thread, complete with your proof, and links to that proof.
It's clear that some here believe Doug, some do not, and some are in the middle. I am not condemning or condoning Doug, or his account of what happened back then. I was not in swift boats, I was not involved in what they were involved in, and I do not know what happened in that scant 4 1/2 months that John F. Kerry was in Vietnam.
However, I do have many questions too concerning what happened on those swift boats that involved John F. Kerry, and the incident in question that allowed John F. Kerry to be awarded those medals for the action that day. I too firmly believe that his actions were not that of a warrior, but someone who based his actions on his desire for glory, medals, awards, ribbons that he could use to get out of Vietnam, and to further his political career that he desired so much.
If I had to choose between believing one person or two, i.e., Doug and a couple of crewmen on John F. Kerry's boat, and the over 200 swift boat veterans, I'll choose the majority everytime.
So, keep posting your comments, and opinions, and I'll hold off on locking any threads for a few days or a week or so.
Fair enough?
Woof!
_________________
"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.
When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: |
I have very strong REASON's to believe Reese is pulling a fast one over all vet's. I've read more then 100 of his posts on Kerry and the Feb 28. Reese's problem isn't his memory. He had a very good reason for wanting others to believe he was on Kerry's boat and it had nothing to do with his memory: HE was asked what kind of guy KERRY was and he had to make it convincing that he had first hand knowledge that KERRY was a great guy. GET IT?
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When recounting 28 Feb, I have always been clear that I was n-o-t on Kerry's boat, and that I walked over to where he was afterwards and spoke to him.
That has been true on this forum and others. You will never see me saying I was on his boat 28 Feb.
It is also true that this horse is dead -- has been for some time.
Doug
PS. Please send me a PM with a post where I've said Kerry was a great guy. I don't want to bore the hell out of everyone else, but I'd like to see it, as I don't recall saying such a thing -- didn't know him well enough. |
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redhawk34
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 19 May 2004
Posts: 83
Location: Joisey, Ya gotta Problem Wit Dat?
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| Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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The demonization of one's political adversaries is perhaps more common on the Left, but it isn't unknown among my brothers on the Right, either.
It is not neccessary to do so to disagree with Doug's conclusions, as I do.
I just returned from the 2004 reunion of the 199th Light Infantry Brigade. My sense is that most of these men are fairly Conservative, but some of my Brothers take the Liberal view. Shall I denigrate them? I don't think so. Their right to their political view is as hard-earned as mine, even if I cannot understand it.
I was all over the Delta like ugly on an ape, and Doug's details ring true to me. I even tossed in a little trap, asking if he had worked the North end of the Rung Sat, which was not a Ninth Div. AO, but 199th, so he would not have worked across the river from Nha Be, as he correctly responded. Perhaps he has fooled me, but I doubt it.
Also, 35 years later, I can remember some details like video tape, but have lost the names of half my crew members. I'd hate like Hell to be pressed to remember if I was carrying Apache or Comanche company that day on the Song Buong. Should I be accused of not having been there?
BTW, Doug, I feel your pain concerning the muzzle blast of a Fifty. We stacked the ammo boxes inside the steel gun shields, outboard of the guns. I was reaching for one when the gunner triggered the Fifty with the muzzle about ten inches from my right ear. Like taping an M-80 to the side of your head. Haven't heard Doo-Doo out of that ear ever since.
Redhawk |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:36 am Post subject: |
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| War Dog wrote: | Bandit, I fully understand what you are saying, but it's not productive to keep beating the same issue to death. If you want to leave, do so, it's your choice. But, this issue of weither Doug is right or wrong on what happened over 35 years ago has been covered from all angles. If you can come up with something new, by all means post it in a new thread, complete with your proof, and links to that proof.
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That is exactly what Reese wants you all to believe and conclude. Do you know who Joe Bangert is? Would you believe anything Bangert told you about what he did or observed in Viet Nam? Understand Bangert and you will know what you are dealing with in Reese for the two are joined at the hip.
Last edited by The bandit on Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:10 am Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: |
Bandit,
I know you're as intense about this issue as I am but why don't you give Doug a break. He may be a Kerry supporter but a 35 year old faulty memory, like mine, doesn't make him a fraud and a liar. Wardog has already told you he has a copy of Doug's DD214 or other documentary evidence of his service.
What matters to me is not so much the "fog of battle" details as why, given what was obviously bad judgement and probably in opposition to standing orders, was he awarded a Silver Star.
Key questions for me are: Did he recommend himself for the an award? Did his political connections or pure arrogance have anything to do with it being awarded?
Doug can't answer these questions. Contact George Elliot, Roy Hoffman, or the remaining OinCs or crews from the mission if you think you can trust fogged 35 year old memories.
I can tell you from a year on the rivers in command of boats that beaching the boat was wrong and leaving his command was wrong. That's the truth... but mistakes are made. I made a bunch. Fortunately they didn't kill me or my crews.
Nuff said.
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Yeah I am intense, reading too much of Reese's slime will do that to you after 6 hours, especially reading his and Bangert's buddy posts. Reese had to be trained somewhere in propaganda and disinformation and I doubt he got his training from working with the postal service.
Does Eillot have a e-mail address? I have a FOIA request in with the Navy Historical Center who has indexed Kerry's records from Coastal Division 11. This is the same dept. that released Bob Kerrey's concealment by releasing his reports to the public. Will be nice to finally be able to see what Kerry himself reported that went down and the award paper trail, though I doubt there is going to be one since Zumwalt pinned the SS on Kerry within a week....way too fast for the Navy to follow-up with an investigation and award recommendation. Would be interesting to see if there was witness statememnts taken. Elliot could be a big help on these questions. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:10 am Post subject: |
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I'd suggest you contact Latch@swiftvets.com and provide him with copies of your work to date on this. He can probably put you in touch with Elliot. Elliott doesn't have an email address listed at swiftnet but if you look there you may find others who were witness to these stirring eveents in modern history.   =You are aware of Swiftnet aren't you?
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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