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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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 Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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From another thread:
| drjohn wrote: | Mr. Koppel
it was interesting watching you attempt to dismiss John O'Neill. I heard you say that the after action reports and the Navy citations support the assertion that there was a "numerically superior force" that Kerry faced on 28 Feb 1969.
In fact, the first version of the Silver Star citation makes no mention of a "numerically superior force." Neither does the second. It is only in the third version of the citation in which the enemy force miraculously expands. That the citations were twice re-written is itself an anomaly- which Nightline for some reason (wink, wink) saw as not important to report. It would be of considerable interest to know how the enemy force grew over time, as the third citation was re-issued (that's right, RE-issued, in 1985). They had to be re-issued for an undisclosed reason, which some assert was a less-than-honorable discharge.
You also made reference to the after-action reports of 28 Feb 1969 supporting the numerically superior force.
The Spot Report for 28 Feb 1969 reads this way-
PCF REMAINED AT ORIGINAL AMBUSH SITE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR TROOPS. PCF 94 AND 23 PROCEEDED TO VQ 984831 AND THEN TURNED TO RETURN TO PCF 43 LOCATION. AT V1 9843O A B-40 ROCKET EXPLODED IN WATER CLOSE ABOARD PCF 94 BLOWING OUT WINDOW FRAME. BOTH UNITS RECEIVED HEAVY SMALL ARMS FIRE AND OTC AGAIN CALLED UNITS TO TURN INTO FIRE AND CHARGE AMBUSH SITE. PCF 43 WAS CALLED TO AND MOVED IMMEDIATELY TO ASSIST. PCF 94 BEACHED IN CENTER OF AMBUSH IN FRONT OF SMALL PATH WHEN VC SPRUNG UP FROM BUNKER 10 FEET FROM UNIT. MAN RAN WITH WEAPON TOWARDS HOOTCH. FORWARD M-60 GUNNER WOUNDED HIM IN LEG. OINC JUMPED ASHORE AND GAVE PURSUIT WHILE OTHER UNITS SATURATED AREA WITH WITH FIRE AND BEACHED PLACING ASSULT PARTIES ASHORE. ONIC OF PCF 94 CHASED VC INLAND BEHIND HOOTCH AND SHOT HIM WHILE HE FLEED CAPTURING ONE B-40 ROCKET LAUNCHER WITH ROUND IN CHAMBER.
There is no mention of a "numerically superior force." It was written in 1969 immedately after the incident. Where exactly did you get your information? It is incorrect. Neither the Spot Report nor the first two versions of the Silver Star citations make any mention of a "numerically superior force." Only in reports written, or rewritten, much later do any of these interesting little facts appear.
The after-action report on Kerry's own website reads: 28 FEB 1969 Bay Hap River
Three PCFs were traveling up the Bay Hap River with 70 South Vietnamese Militia investigating an area where the boats were ambushed the previous night. During the patrol, the boats came under heavy fire from the shore. Kerry, serving as the Officer in Tactical Command of the mission, ordered the units to turn toward the fire and beach. As the boats approached shore, more than 20 Viet Cong troops stood up and ran. They were quickly overrun when the Marines troops reached the shore. While the Militia searched the area, PCFs 23 and 94 left to investigate another site where an Army advisor reported gunshots. Returning from the site, a B-40 rocket exploded close to PCF94, blowing out one of the windows. Kerry again ordered the units to turn into the fire and charge the ambush site. PCF 94 landed in the center of ambush and a man jumped up holding a B-40 rocket launcher and started to run. The forward M-60 gunner on PCF94 wounded him in the leg as Kerry jumped off the boat and chased him inland behind a hooch and shot him. Marines swept the area, and received fire from snipers and small arms that was suppressed with the assistance of mortars and gunfire from the swiftboats. The landing parties found vast stores of rice, ammunition and clothing. The boats were fired on one additional time as they were heading back down the river. The site of the second ambush was believed to be a major Viet Cong supply point. Kerry received the Silver Star for this operation.
Again, no mention of any "numerically superior force." You specifically said that the after action reports support your claim of numerical superiority. It does NOT. You lied, Mr. Koppel.
To suggest that the Communists of Vietnam do not have an agenda is patently absurd. John Kerry was the best friend the Vietnamese Communists ever had, and it is why his picture hangs today in the Hall of Heroes in Ho Chi Minh City, something you clearly did not want O'Neill to make known.
You broadcast an essentially false report. You accepted the word of the Vietnamese over that of the decorated Swift Boat vets and even that of John Kerry himself. You have omitted critical details that change entirely the perspective. It was totally dishonest.
Sincerely |
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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ThanksVets
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 136
Location: Sacramento,Ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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I had received more than twenty phone calls from people all over Vietnam saying, "Mister Chuck, I just see you on TV!"
http://www.nnn.se/abf/append2.htm
``We had very serious disagreements among ourselves about the war, but the creed was that we never spoke ill of another veteran,'' said Chuck Searcy from Athens, Ga., who served in Vietnam from 1967-68 before joining the anti-war movement at home.
``That ethic has been violated in this election, and it's pretty shameful,'' he said.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4439327,00.html |
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nathan roland
Ensign
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 57
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Here is a link if you want to compare some photos of the guys face...Kyle Hurst (SP?) from ABC's story.
http://www.theraggedycottage.com/Compare.htm
I don't know but you can have a look and see what you think.
Last edited by nathan roland on Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:11 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ranch hand
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 24 Aug 2004
Posts: 108
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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| To me, not the same person. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:12 pm Post subject: |
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I'd say "No way," just on the ears.
Lobe attached on one, free-swinging on the other. Top turns outward on one ear, lies close to head on the other. Inner folds meet on one ear and do not on the other.
Hairline on side of face is different.
Some similarities in the facial features, but I'd have to know how long a time period passed between the taking of the two pictures to comment on most of those.
(Portrait painter and sculptor)
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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ThanksVets
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 136
Location: Sacramento,Ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| There can't be any question he's involved. |
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hanna
Rear Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 701
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:25 pm Post subject: |
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I don't believe its the same man. The hairline is different. The point where it curves toward the side burns is higher in one than the other. One more rounded than the other. The distance between the cartiledge in the ears is wider in one than the other and the lobe is attached in one and not the other.
Thats just for starters;/
Why would Nightline not give the name of the guide? Thats strange:/ |
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ThanksVets
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 14 Oct 2004
Posts: 136
Location: Sacramento,Ca
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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In 1997, Bangert was one of three former VVAW members to pay tribute in Hanoi to Ho Chi Minh on his birthday. Bangert joined Chuck Searcy and Eric Herter May 19 – which was also the 30th anniversary of the founding of the VVAW.
Bangert worked for Kerry throughout the primary season in New Hampshire, Missouri and South Carolina.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40304 |
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | From another thread:
| drjohn wrote: | Mr. Koppel
it was interesting watching you attempt to dismiss John O'Neill. I heard you say that the after action reports and the Navy citations support the assertion that there was a "numerically superior force" that Kerry faced on 28 Feb 1969.
In fact, the first version of the Silver Star citation makes no mention of a "numerically superior force." Neither does the second. It is only in the third version of the citation in which the enemy force miraculously expands. That the citations were twice re-written is itself an anomaly- which Nightline for some reason (wink, wink) saw as not important to report. It would be of considerable interest to know how the enemy force grew over time, as the third citation was re-issued (that's right, RE-issued, in 1985). They had to be re-issued for an undisclosed reason, which some assert was a less-than-honorable discharge.
You also made reference to the after-action reports of 28 Feb 1969 supporting the numerically superior force.
The Spot Report for 28 Feb 1969 reads this way-
PCF REMAINED AT ORIGINAL AMBUSH SITE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT FOR TROOPS. PCF 94 AND 23 PROCEEDED TO VQ 984831 AND THEN TURNED TO RETURN TO PCF 43 LOCATION. AT V1 9843O A B-40 ROCKET EXPLODED IN WATER CLOSE ABOARD PCF 94 BLOWING OUT WINDOW FRAME. BOTH UNITS RECEIVED HEAVY SMALL ARMS FIRE AND OTC AGAIN CALLED UNITS TO TURN INTO FIRE AND CHARGE AMBUSH SITE. PCF 43 WAS CALLED TO AND MOVED IMMEDIATELY TO ASSIST. PCF 94 BEACHED IN CENTER OF AMBUSH IN FRONT OF SMALL PATH WHEN VC SPRUNG UP FROM BUNKER 10 FEET FROM UNIT. MAN RAN WITH WEAPON TOWARDS HOOTCH. FORWARD M-60 GUNNER WOUNDED HIM IN LEG. OINC JUMPED ASHORE AND GAVE PURSUIT WHILE OTHER UNITS SATURATED AREA WITH WITH FIRE AND BEACHED PLACING ASSULT PARTIES ASHORE. ONIC OF PCF 94 CHASED VC INLAND BEHIND HOOTCH AND SHOT HIM WHILE HE FLEED CAPTURING ONE B-40 ROCKET LAUNCHER WITH ROUND IN CHAMBER.
There is no mention of a "numerically superior force." It was written in 1969 immedately after the incident. Where exactly did you get your information? It is incorrect. Neither the Spot Report nor the first two versions of the Silver Star citations make any mention of a "numerically superior force." Only in reports written, or rewritten, much later do any of these interesting little facts appear.
The after-action report on Kerry's own website reads: 28 FEB 1969 Bay Hap River
Three PCFs were traveling up the Bay Hap River with 70 South Vietnamese Militia investigating an area where the boats were ambushed the previous night. During the patrol, the boats came under heavy fire from the shore. Kerry, serving as the Officer in Tactical Command of the mission, ordered the units to turn toward the fire and beach. As the boats approached shore, more than 20 Viet Cong troops stood up and ran. They were quickly overrun when the Marines troops reached the shore. While the Militia searched the area, PCFs 23 and 94 left to investigate another site where an Army advisor reported gunshots. Returning from the site, a B-40 rocket exploded close to PCF94, blowing out one of the windows. Kerry again ordered the units to turn into the fire and charge the ambush site. PCF 94 landed in the center of ambush and a man jumped up holding a B-40 rocket launcher and started to run. The forward M-60 gunner on PCF94 wounded him in the leg as Kerry jumped off the boat and chased him inland behind a hooch and shot him. Marines swept the area, and received fire from snipers and small arms that was suppressed with the assistance of mortars and gunfire from the swiftboats. The landing parties found vast stores of rice, ammunition and clothing. The boats were fired on one additional time as they were heading back down the river. The site of the second ambush was believed to be a major Viet Cong supply point. Kerry received the Silver Star for this operation.
Again, no mention of any "numerically superior force." You specifically said that the after action reports support your claim of numerical superiority. It does NOT. You lied, Mr. Koppel.
To suggest that the Communists of Vietnam do not have an agenda is patently absurd. John Kerry was the best friend the Vietnamese Communists ever had, and it is why his picture hangs today in the Hall of Heroes in Ho Chi Minh City, something you clearly did not want O'Neill to make known.
You broadcast an essentially false report. You accepted the word of the Vietnamese over that of the decorated Swift Boat vets and even that of John Kerry himself. You have omitted critical details that change entirely the perspective. It was totally dishonest.
Sincerely |
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I'd send that to some of the bloggers, that was an incredible letter. Extremely well put, I wish the letter I wrote to Nightline was presented that well! |
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gilliam
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 10:58 pm Post subject: |
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| Is there a good blog to send people to? I am afraid if I send people here, they will get lost in the research. |
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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Looks like drjohn sent his post over to "wizbang". Thats great! Looks like a lot of the other major blogs are linking to wizbang.
http://wizbangblog.com/archives/003966.php |
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CK_Phantom
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 18
Location: Puyallup, WA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 15, 2004 11:28 pm Post subject: |
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So how many of those villagers had the details scribbled in their date books and calendars, and they identified Kerry as taking part in the actions they remembered by what, his rice encrusted ass and bruised forearm ???
Or did they already know him and his film crew from his amatuer action hero film, done at risk to his men on navy time with navy equipment??
_________________
----------
Phantom
US Army "Cold War" Veteran
Born in the USofA on the 4th of July.
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin, 1759 |
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mach9
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 05 Oct 2004
Posts: 97
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:02 am Post subject: |
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| sevry wrote: | | sleeplessinseattle wrote: | the fate of the MSM
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It does raise a further question. Can they have it both ways? Can there have been a fierce firefight, to which Kerry himself was oblivious, as were those supposedly being fired upon. In order to contradict the 'Swifties' on two points, the age of the gunman, and his support, they appear to have contradicted Kerry, himself, who spoke of the gunman and no support. Which is it? Do the citations themselves differ on this point? |
I get it, I get it, I get it: this is for the NEXT Silver Star citation--with TWO "V"s. |
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JFitz
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 7
Location: Carson City, Nevada
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:02 am Post subject: E-mail to Nightline |
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Sent the following to Nightline:
Re: Mr. Koppel's questioning of Mr. O'Neill, the U.S. Navy Viet Nam veteran, on Nightline, 10/14/04.
Mr. Koppel pressed Mr. O'Neill to provide the answer why Vietnamese "peasants" would provide Nightline reporters with contradictory information concerning the skirmish that involved John Kerry in 1969 when the answer was obvious. The Viet Nam government would prefer to see the U.S. elect a candidate for president who has a record of assisting them in past. The question I now have concerns why Mr. Koppel and ABC gives credence to information provided by "peasants" living in a controlled society. Does Mr. Koppel (and ABC) have a motive to influence the presidential election? |
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helpmycountry
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 77
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 12:32 am Post subject: Here it the orginal ad ran and the name of the paper. |
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I also have the ad where the newsapper man called him Kerry a COWARD AND LIBERAL WHERE O'neil shpwed up to debate three times with as teh reporter put it LIberals HideTHE LOWELL SUN, THURSDAY,OCTOBER 5, 1972 23
Political Advertisement Political Advertisement Political Advertisement Political AdrertiMinent Political Advertisement Political Advertisement Political AdvertUemeat Political AdtertUeateat
IFSOMEONE ASKED YOU
INTHENEXT 30SECONDS
TONAME APOLITICIAN
MORE EXTREME
THANGEORGE McGOVERN
COULD YOUDOIT?
YOUCOULD IFYOUANSWERED
JOHNKERRY
THE RECORD
PRISONERS OF WAR
John Kerrywould leave our POWsto linger in the prisons of
Hanoi. Kerrywould pull out of Vietnam without a guarantee
that all American prisoners will be released.
Not even McGovern is that reckless.
AMNESTY
JohnKerrywould let the malcontents and draft dodgersin Canada
and Swedengo scott free. Even though theyrefused to serve in
their country's armed forces.
Noteven McGovernis that radical.
ABORTION
John Kerrybelieves a doctor and the mother have a right to
take the life of an unborn child. Kerryopposes all laws against
abortion, and is in favor of abortion on demand.
Not even McGovern is that irresponsible.
TAXES
John Kerryfavors f ederalized welfare, socialized medicine and a
massive multi-billion dollarpublic dolethat would send your taxes
skyrocketing.
Noteven McGovern is that unreasonable.
AMERICA
John Kerryhas slandered America.John Kerrysays America has "lost her sense of morality" and the American
people haveplaced a "cheapnesson the livesof Orientals" becauseof "racism." JohnKerrysays the UnitedStates
Armyis a "monster" and has characterized Americansoldiers as raping, torturingand murderinginnocent
civilians in Vietnamand actinglikethe hordesof "GhenghisKhan."
John Kerryhas compared the Presidentto LieutenantWilliamGalley and even suggested the President of the
UnitedStatesbetried as a war criminal
Noteven McGovern is that extreme.
There is on alternative
ROGERDURKIN
Theonly alternative
ilGNED: Rovtr f. Ourkln, 11 Mrvitw It" L??n*
image serial: 20432649 image serial: 20432649
_________________
Swift Boat Veterans called back to war on Kerry
Linda McREA |
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