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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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 Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 4:49 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | I am sure any one of these guys could have gotten ABC into Vietnam.
Doug |
I got your brief email note. If I might summarize, you believe you faced enemy fire. Your boat, and those on it (you didn't answer that question), beached or hit the bank in the same manner as the 94, but only about 60 yards away. The 94, however, apparently faced a lone VC with the RPG, as described, who was at the 'northernmost end' of this action, as you briefly describe it. The '20 men' were apparently all clustered at the southern end and attacked you. So you do not know what happened up there, who fired, how the VC was wounded, how or where Kerry chased, etc. You don't know. That's fine. I take it you do not feel qualified to answer the other questions concerning tactics. And would that be a fair summary? You were there, that day. But apart from that, you don't know the details of what happened really not all that far away? since you say you were under attack and concerned exclusively with that?
Certainly I'm not trying to trip you up. I'm not the defense attorney, here, with a client. I'm not Ted Koppel, in other words. I'm not trying to impeach a witness. This is personal. And myself, I'd rather have the truth. That's it. And I hope you are just the same way and are not attempting to 'spin' any of this. I do wish you could explain, at least, what YOU believe happened that day as you saw it, even if you can't say all that much about the 94. It might still be very useful. If you have a link, that would be fine as well. If you can't be bothered, again, or prefer to 'go away', still, believe me when I say that I sincerely thank you for your service to this great nation! I'd say the same to Sandusky and others. But the latter isn't playing fair, now, with the nation he once pledged to serve. I hope we both agree, at least on that. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:02 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: |
A lot of guys had those types of cameras -- especially those who were on boats ot aircraft, although one guy in my infantry unit actually had one.
Most of the footage taken with Kerry's camera didn't have Kerry in it, but was of the countryside, canals, rivers, etc.
Doug |
One . . of the people you knew had one? That's okay. Did Sandusky, Thorsen, Rev. Alston? Thurlow, Chenoweth, etc? Pees? I do see footage, on the web, from onboard the boats, or on shore with panning shots. I'm not suggesting it's the only thing that ever was shot. But Kerry's are the only ones I've seen even suggesting some sort of re-creation of 'great battles'. Perhaps he had a mind to be a film-maker at some future date? Perhaps something else?
You say "most of the footage" - "canals" and "rivers". I understand Kerry would have screenings at his house. Was this what he showed - canals and rivers? That sounds more tortuous than looking at Aunt Mable's slides of her visit to Disneyland. You suggest you can characterize the bulk of his collection. How much footage are we talking about, here? When he was in Vietnam, where did he store all that film? particularly as he got chased out of An Thoi for a while by Lt. Wright. |
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GT
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 90
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:35 pm Post subject: |
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Is there a Kennedy connection?
Found something on R. Kyle Horst, freelance producer of the Nightline joke. He's mentioned in the book Sons of Camelot by Lawrence Leamer on p. 505:
"...hours north from Hanoi through the mountains to the Chinese border, and from there paddled down the whitewater stream" recalls Kyle Horst, an aid official who travelled with John."
John who? The book's on Amazon. |
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swiftsocks
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject: Kerry said the guy popped up out of a hole |
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http://www.usvetdsp.com/story10.htmAccording to the official citation accompanying the Silver Star for Kerry's actions on the waters of the Mekong Delta on February 28, 1969: "Kerry's craft received a B-40 rocket close aboard. Once again Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry ordered his units to charge the enemy positions. . . Patrol Craft Fast 94 then beached in the center of the enemy positions and an enemy soldier sprang up from his position not ten feet from Patrol Craft 94 and fled. Without hesitation Lieutenant (j.g.) Kerry leaped ashore, pursued the man behind a hootch and killed him, capturing a B-40 rocket launcher with a round in the chamber." In an article printed in the October 21st and 28th 1996 edition of The New Yorker, Kerry was asked about the man he had killed.
"It was either going to be him or it was going to be us. It was that simple. I don't know why it wasn't us--I mean, to this day. He had a rocket pointed right at our boat. He stood up out of the hole, and none of us saw him until he was standing in front of us, aiming a rocket right at us, and, for whatever reason, he didn't pull the trigger--he turned and ran. He was shocked to see our boat right in front of him. If he'd pulled the trigger, we'd all be dead . . . I just won't talk about all of it. I don't and I can't. The things that probably really turn me I've never told anybody. Nobody would understand," Kerry said. In the column, Warsh quoted the Swift boat's former gunner, Tom Belodeau, as saying the Viet Cong soldier who Kerry chased "behind a hootch" and "finished off" actually had already been wounded by the gunner.
In December of 1992, not long after Kerry was quoted in the world press stating "President Bush should reward Vietnam within a month for its increased cooperation in accounting for American MIAs," Vietnam announced it had granted Colliers International, based in Boston, Massachusetts, Vietnam announced it had granted Colliers International, based in Boston, Massachusetts,
That deal alone put Colliers in a position to make tens of millions of dollars on the rush to upgrade Vietnam's ports, railroads, highways, government buildings, etc. C. Stewart Forbes, Chief Executive Officer of Colliers International, is Kerry's cousin. Kerry was portrayed in The New Yorker as a proud Vietnam veteran and "war hero" who, as chairman of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, dared to take on and defeat the "mendacious POW lobby." |
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lrb111
Captain
Joined: 28 Jul 2004
Posts: 508
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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| GT wrote: | Is there a Kennedy connection?
Found something on R. Kyle Horst, freelance producer of the Nightline joke. He's mentioned in the book Sons of Camelot by Lawrence Leamer on p. 505:
"...hours north from Hanoi through the mountains to the Chinese border, and from there paddled down the whitewater stream" recalls Kyle Horst, an aid official who travelled with John."
John who? The book's on Amazon. |
I'm guessing JFK jr. (real one). JFKjr. is the prominent feature of the book.
However, it does make the connection of Horst with the liberal Kennedy clan. Which means he is absolutely dipped in kerry support.
good find and a clincher for the evidence of spin. It also makes it obvious how the story "came to" abc.
_________________
said Democratic Chairman Terry McAuliffe. "It is inexcusable to mock service and sacrifice."
well, when even the DNC can see it,,,,, then kerry is toast. |
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drjohn
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 550
Location: CT
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry - I got the link
Thanks! |
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swiftsocks
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 41
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:44 pm Post subject: |
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Was there really a VC with a rocket launcher? In that same 2001 interview with CNN's Jonathan Karl there was this exchange:
KARL: And you still have the rocket launcher?
KERRY: I do have the rocket, yes, I do have the rocket. One of the SEALs disarmed it for me, and I brought it home.
Ask Senator Kerry to immediately produce the B-40 launcher he says he has at home before the media, and perhaps asked to explain how he was able to get such an prohibited item through military customs in Vietnam in 1969. The Military was very strict with inspections and with what you could take home with you. Military Customs would confiscate even spent .50 cal shells from those who tried to sneak them home through their baggage.
************************************************************
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1133600/posts
After reading though all 290 posts here, I went back into my files and
found this from Free Republic. This is, I think, the most comprehensive
amunt of info on this topic in once place. It is very long, but if you have
the time to follow the links....there is no doubt that ABC is pulling our leg.
I would certainly like to know if Kerry has the shell from the rocket launcher ! |
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USAF66-70
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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Doug Reese said:
| Quote: | | In the mind of whoever wrote the second and third citations. |
Doug: Your posts tend to be pithy, and since you were there, weighty. Thanks.
I’ve always been a bit uneasy regarding the SBVT explanation of the SS incident, thinking it one of their weaker examples of Kerry’s, ahhh, opportunism.
But I’m not seeing much from your (nor Nightline’s nor Rood’s for that matter) explanations that substantially alters O’Neill’s explanation nor the conclusion that many Vietnam vets and Swiftees don’t consider this action to be “the stuff of which medals of any kind are awarded.” (Plus Kerry’s penchant for writing his own reports and his refusal to sign F180.)
I get the sense that you’re attempting to set the facts as correct as possible, but that you’re not necessarily disagreeing or arguing with O’Neill’s conclusion, even though you yourself may have a different POV regarding whether Kerry’s SS should even be questioned.
Or am I missing something? Not that any of this will change any votes at this late date.
Fred H.
USAF66-70
Atlanta GA |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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| USAF66-70 wrote: | Doug Reese said:
| Quote: | | In the mind of whoever wrote the second and third citations. |
Doug: Your posts tend to be pithy, and since you were there, weighty. Thanks.
I’ve always been a bit uneasy regarding the SBVT explanation of the SS incident, thinking it one of their weaker examples of Kerry’s, ahhh, opportunism.
But I’m not seeing much from your (nor Nightline’s nor Rood’s for that matter) explanations that substantially alters O’Neill’s explanation nor the conclusion that many Vietnam vets and Swiftees don’t consider this action to be “the stuff of which medals of any kind are awarded.” (Plus Kerry’s penchant for writing his own reports and his refusal to sign F180.)
I get the sense that you’re attempting to set the facts as correct as possible, but that you’re not necessarily disagreeing or arguing with O’Neill’s conclusion, even though you yourself may have a different POV regarding whether Kerry’s SS should even be questioned.
Or am I missing something? Not that any of this will change any votes at this late date.
Fred H.
USAF66-70
Atlanta GA |
Hello Fred,
What John O'Neill says varies with who he's talking to (sound familiar?), and the media (book, talk show, etc), at least that's my opinion. I don't have the transcript of Night Line, but I believe Ted asked something about him (John) saying Kerry "shot that kid in the back". I believe John said he didn't say that.
I do have the transcript of a Chris Matthews show -- I believe the first time John was on. On that show, in a fairly brief period, he said "shot that kid in the back", or "shot that kid" five times.
That is but one example of the kind of thing I take exception to. The misrepresentation, spin and/or omission of facts when they don't suit your take on events as you want them to be known. I mean we all do this to a degree, that's human nature. But when it's done constantly, and with a high degree of skill/sophistication, the level of respect on my end falls off dramatically.
If they want to start putting all those Navy citations under the same level of scrutiny as Kerry's is being subjected to, that's fine with me. But until then, lay off. (I'm not directing these comments at you, of course)
The truth? Sure, I'm all for it, but not just some of it . . . all of it.
If I ever say anything that would change votes (for Kerry, of course), please let me know 
Doug |
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212351st
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 06 Sep 2004
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| GT wrote: | Is there a Kennedy connection?
Found something on R. Kyle Horst, freelance producer of the Nightline joke. He's mentioned in the book Sons of Camelot by Lawrence Leamer on p. 505:
"...hours north from Hanoi through the mountains to the Chinese border, and from there paddled down the whitewater stream" recalls Kyle Horst, an aid official who travelled with John."
John who? The book's on Amazon. |
Another possible connection might be hiding in one of Kerry's few accomplishments(?) in the senate, "A Bill For The Relief Of Kil Joon Yu Callahan". Someone mentioned earlier that Horst helped Vietnamese relocate to the USA.
Maybe someone more adept than me can explore that. |
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USAF66-70
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 136
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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DougReese | Quote: | | If they want to start putting all those Navy citations under the same level of scrutiny as Kerry's is being subjected to, that's fine with me. But until then, lay off. |
Doug—If Kerry had not boasted of his Vietnam service (compared to Bush’s ANG) and his previously discarded ribbons/medals, and if he had sincerely apologized for falsely accusing his fellow vets of “all kinds of atrocities,” and that he himself committed the “same kind of atrocities,” I’d be inclined to agree with your POV. Kerry brought this on himself.
Hope something is said here that’ll change your vote; it may matter in your state.
All the best,
Fred H.
Last edited by USAF66-70 on Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:43 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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ncoic6
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 11
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:53 pm Post subject: ABC/Nightline |
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O'Neil's statement after the Nightline program says that this is the 3rd time that Nightline did a piece on Kerry's Silver Star.
A previous occasion was June 24, 2004? Does anyone know when the third program took place and are there transcripts available on line of the other two? |
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cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:53 pm Post subject: |
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| DougReese wrote: | | cipher wrote: | Mr. Reese, can you help me out with a technical question regarding the RPG-2 and B-40 loadout?
The MTSR states that 12 B-40s were captured after the action.
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Really? We captured 12? Are you sure about that? I never have remembered what was captured back then, but also don't recall any report that said we captured 12 of those. Could you give me a link to that? I'm not doubting you, but would like to see if it's something that I have read, but just overlooked that part of it, or if I never read it all.
As for why he didn't fire the B-40 when the boat had beached so close to him, I suppose we'll never know. Keeping in mind they (the VC there that day) never imagined that the Swifts would stop like that, perhaps he was in such a state of shock . . . and fear, that firing wasn't an option that came to mind.
Doug |
Mr. Reese, thanks for your reply. As the quote a couple of posts later showed, I misunderstood the reference to the B-40 blast masks as actual B-40 rockets.
Which sort of begs another question. On the BZ message sent by Adm Zumwalt, he indicated a "significant number of weapons" were captured. (page 32 of 37 in THIS document: http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/SpotReports_February1969.pdf )
However, it appears that three rifles, 4 carbines, and one B-40 and launcher, and a few clips of .30 cal ammo and AK-44(?) bandolier were the only weapons captured. I'm not sure what constitues "significant", however, for an operation involving three swifts, 90 ruffpuffs, and an unspecified number of you snakeeater types, this seems to be a rather low yield of weaponry. This was from the same document that referenced the B-40 back blast masks, cited earlier.
Thanks for your responses, I find them all enlightening, pithy or otherwise.
_________________
USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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DougReese
Former Member
Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 396
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| Posted: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:10 am Post subject: |
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| cipher wrote: | Mr. Reese, thanks for your reply. As the quote a couple of posts later showed, I misunderstood the reference to the B-40 blast masks as actual B-40 rockets.
Which sort of begs another question. On the BZ message sent by Adm Zumwalt, he indicated a "significant number of weapons" were captured. (page 32 of 37 in THIS document: http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/SpotReports_February1969.pdf )
However, it appears that three rifles, 4 carbines, and one B-40 and launcher, and a few clips of .30 cal ammo and AK-44(?) bandolier were the only weapons captured. I'm not sure what constitues "significant", however, for an operation involving three swifts, 90 ruffpuffs, and an unspecified number of you snakeeater types, this seems to be a rather low yield of weaponry. This was from the same document that referenced the B-40 back blast masks, cited earlier.
Thanks for your responses, I find them all enlightening, pithy or otherwise. |
My guess is, for the Navy, that was significant. Remember, he was big on promoting what they were doing down there. So in that regard, everything was significant.
Pithy? Hmm, maybe I should be writing to O'Reilly
Doug |
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Trickworm
Ensign
Joined: 15 Oct 2004
Posts: 59
Location: West Georgia
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