SwiftVets.com

[CK_Phantom]

[Hondo]

There is no "mystery" as to why Kerry's DD214 releasing him from active duty in 1970 says "no discharge certificate issued." It states that because KERRY WAS NOT DISCHARGED IN 1970. He was released from active duty. There is a distinct difference.

If I recall correctly, until very recently enlisted personnel in the US armed forces were in fact technically discharged on reenlistment and reentered the military the following day. This is not the case for reserve commissioned officers.

When commissioned, reserve officers are tendered commissions with an indefinite term. Reserve officers serving on active duty do not lose their commision on leaving active duty. Reserve officers also do not automatically lose their commission on expiration of term of obligated reserve service (as a few US Army Reserve officers recently found out the hard way). A commission must be formally resigned, terminated through administative action, or terminated due to statuatory requiements in order for a reserve officer to be discharged (or retired, if appropriate AND REQUESTED BY THE OFFICER CONCERNED). Non-punative administrative and/or legal events requiring a reserve officer to be discharged include age (mandatory legal age limits), achieving maximum allowable time in service (varies by grade), and 2x nonselection for promotion to any commissioned officer rank below COL/CAPT.

Kerry had a remaining reserve obligation in 1970 and thus under normal circumstances could NOT legally have been discharged in 1970. THIS is why his DD214 from Jan 1970 states "no discharge certificate issued." He was NOT discharged; he was released from active duty. He REMAINED in the USNR at that point. Legally, neither he nor the Navy had a choice about this.

Under normal circumstances, the earliest Kerry could have been legally discharged was 1972, on expriation of his 6 year committment (active plus reserve) which began in 1966. Whether Kerry fulfilled the last 2 years of his committment in the reserves is debatable; to me it looks as if he likely didn't (no drills) but simply "slipped through the cracks" there.

However, Kerry was apparently TECHNICALLY STILL IN GOOD STANDING in the USNR in 1972 when he was transferred to the USNR-Standby (July 1972, if I recall correctly documents posted on his web site). This would not have happened had his commission been terminated prior to that time.

While it is possible that Kerry received something other than an honorable discharge between July 1972 and Feb 1978, I seriously doubt it. By that time, Vietnam had effectively ended for the US; services were downsizing. The Navy - as are all the services - is a large bureaucracy that simply is not going to go out of its way to make work for itself or make itself look bad. Trying to give Kerry a "bad" discharge for anti-war activities would have made more work for the USNR and would have also reopened painful wounds (we effectively lost the Vietnam War). My common sense tells me that, even if a general discharge was deserved, Kerry would have gotten a pass there for precisely these reasons.

1978 is about the right time for Kerry to have been 2x nonselect for LCDR and thus been administratively discharged for 2x nonselection. As I've said before, my guess is that Kerry never formally resigned his commission, was 2x nonselected for promotion to LCDR, and was as a result administratively discharged in 1978. The paperwork on Kerry's web site clearly shows he received an honorable discharge at that point.

I would dearly love someone to PROVE me wrong - say, by finding records with date of enlistment, awards, etc . . . ., matching Kerry's - in the public records of the Discharge Review Board conducted in 1977-78 in the Navy Archives (as discussed elsewhere on this board). This would document to a high degree of certainty that Kerry had originally received a lesser discharge sometime after 1972, and that the discharge was upgraded to honorable in 1978.

However, wishing and speculation does nothing to PROVE Kerry received anything but a single discharge - an Honorable one - in 1978. Records released Kerry to date are consistent with this latter possibility.
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[Aristotle The Hun]

Hondo, you put all the facts together in a cogent way. I actually knew all the facts but I hadn't connected the dots. The 2x passover is what makes the dates all make sense.

Dammit! You are right. Nuts! Nuts! NUTS! and more NUTS!

It is so important to be accurate. Thanks, I think.

Sam
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Deportè Monsieur Kerrè

[Hondo]

It's still possible he originally got something besides an honorable discharge between mid-1972 and early 1978. However, we'll need to PROVE it vice going off half-cocked.

Wish I lived close enough to the Navy Archives to go do a couple of days looking around.
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[PowerPro]

I believe I posted this before, and I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules by posting this again...

But I wanted to be sure everyone knows that Steve Malzberg will be talking with Thomas Lipscomb (the author of the article about Kerry's discharge) Sunday around 10:30 a.m. EST.

To listen, just go to http://www.wabcradio.com/listenlive.asp and listen.

If you're like me and you hate RealPlayer, you can install RealAlternative instead: http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Real_Alternative.htm

Don't miss out!


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ANNOUNCING: DOUBLE W. Which means, KERRY LOST! Now don't that feel GOOD????

Thank you SBVs & POWs FT! Your service to this country is incalculable!!!

[NavyChief]

Kerry was reportedly transferred from Ready Reserves to Standby Reserves in 1972. All personnel in Standby Reserves-Inactive list (including Kerry) were NOT eligible for promotion. This is not an issue. It is something else. Aside from the fact that passovers for promotion are handled under separate titles of the US Code, not 1162 and 1163.

- Chief
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Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work?

[PowerPro]

[3rd gen Navy]

Chief,
Thanks for keeping those who weren't fortunate to have served in the world's greatest Navy tracking. Now, what's in the works for further capitalizing on your momentum? Rhetorical Question... we don't have a need to know, and the trolls are no doubt lurking...just praying for some fireworks early next week!
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Warm Regards,
Sean G. Smith,
RN, BSN, EMT-B, U.S. Navy, 1994 - 2003.
BS Biology, Business Administration, Nursing
The Deal with Life: Make decisions based on what you might gain, not on what you may lose.
!!!!!! LET THE WILD RUMPUS BEGIN !!!!!!

[PowerPro]

I really want to know.

Does this story not have the legs we thought it did?
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ANNOUNCING: DOUBLE W. Which means, KERRY LOST! Now don't that feel GOOD????

Thank you SBVs & POWs FT! Your service to this country is incalculable!!!

[Theresa Alwood]

I truly believe that Kerry is hiding something...otherwise he would have signed the 180 months ago...not sure if it is surrounding his discharge or something else, but only someone who has something to hide would not come out and address the swiftvets, or would have simply signed the 180 to further his "war hero" status that he claims he has.

I believe 254 swiftvets over John Kerry. He has done nothing but hide from the swiftvets since they have addressed his actions in the military. John Kerry has yet to meet any press other than the powder puff media since the truth was revealed by the swiftvets.

I keep wondering when the real press will show up and report the news not slant it. I guess truth in the new is no longer true. It is sad that we see where lies are considered truth; and truth is considered lies in the eyes of the media. They refuse to look at John Kerry for who he is.
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Born to raise a little hell!

[cipher]

[NavyChief]

My previous post was to address those who think Kerry's discharge in 1978 was promotion related. It wasn't.

Only a couple of possibilities existed. The strongest possibility was what Lipscomb wrote in his article because we have a BIG SOURCE who confirmed it. Some stories are just written with as little information as this. There's much more to it but I can't go into that right now

There will be another article coming but I do not know yet what the slant of the story will be. Hopefully it will also make front page.

- Chief
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Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work?

[3rd gen Navy]

God Bless the GoatLocker! Owe you beverage of your choice many times over Chief! Hope I have the chance to deliver some day!
_________________
Warm Regards,
Sean G. Smith,
RN, BSN, EMT-B, U.S. Navy, 1994 - 2003.
BS Biology, Business Administration, Nursing
The Deal with Life: Make decisions based on what you might gain, not on what you may lose.
!!!!!! LET THE WILD RUMPUS BEGIN !!!!!!

[PowerPro]

I'm only 31 and the closest I've come to the military is the fact that my father retired as a Master Sgt in the Air Force.

I say this because I want you to know that I am truly naive regarding military procedures and protocols.

I appreciate your clearing things up and I'll be paying close attention the next week or so!!!

Thank you Navy Chief for all you've done.
_________________
ANNOUNCING: DOUBLE W. Which means, KERRY LOST! Now don't that feel GOOD????

Thank you SBVs & POWs FT! Your service to this country is incalculable!!!

[3rd gen Navy]

Don't feel bad, Mary, Military regulations are tortuous at best, and I imagine that very few service members are intimately familiar with them...as for your name....try sharing a handle w/ a Kerry Spokesman... (Sean Smith) BLEAH!