SwiftVets.com

[drjohn]

"John Kerry has been Ted Kennedy's protege, no question about it.
The question is, when did they really begin their relationship and
who else is involved?"

There is a picture going around (and it might be in one of the books) with John Kerry on the real JFK's yacht. This association goes back to 62 for sure.

[Rdtf]

[Stevie]

[JP]

Air_vet and SAFVet provided helpful, knowledgeable information about why there should not be another DD 214 issued to Kerry on or about 17 Feb 72, his "Terminal Date of Separation." (box 16). The DD 214 is actually called a Report of Transfer or Discharge. Thus, can these two gentlemen discuss what, if anything, is suppose to happen administratively on the date of a person's, Terminal Date of Separation." Is there not some form of discharge, transfer or separation automatically involved at that time, that the military must address and document? My hang up here is that Kerry's military timeline on his website ends on April 29, 1970, with the notation, "Kerry listed as Registrant who has completed service." This timeline event appears to result from his transfer to the Naval Reserve documented by his second DD 214 (effective date, 3 Jan 70). Then there are no other timeline entries or available documents about his military status until the SECNAV letter of 18 Feb 1978. Is this vacumn of any other pertinent administrative action plausible?

Related to the foregoing can you offer any explanation why Kerry would not provide to the public the Honorable Discharge Certificate forwarded by the SECNAV letter? Why only the cover letter?

[SBD]

Someone signed a waiver for Kerry to be eligable for duty in Vietnam. That same person is probably in a high position today and does not want it released or revealed.
Just read this article and Unfit For Command and it will become much clearer.

Imagine your son is in combat in enemy territory when someone starts to have a "night terror" and the enemy hears it and now your son is dead.

Don't believe me?? Listen to a recent eyewitness account from Theresa Heinz or ask Thurlow, he knows all too well since he had to baby sit.

Now ask yourself, how can a man be president when their is a possibility that in the case of an emergency, Kerry can not wake up from sleep due to Parasomnia.

SBD

[PowerPro]

is there any update on this topic?

Sincerely,

Restless in Tennessee
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ANNOUNCING: DOUBLE W. Which means, KERRY LOST! Now don't that feel GOOD????

Thank you SBVs & POWs FT! Your service to this country is incalculable!!!

[Hondo]

JP:


You seem to have missed the 1 Mar 1972 letter, posted on Kerry's web site, which transfers him to the Standby Reserve. This also happens to be just after his 6 year period of obligated service expired.

The document is on Kerry's website in his Navy records. It is titled "Transfer to Standby Reserve", or something similar.

Reserve officers do not automatically receive a discharge at the end of their period of obligated service; a reserve officer's commission is for an indefinite period of time. An officer must be administratively discharged (age/years of service/2x nonselect/other board action), retire, be court-martialed, or resign his/her commission to sever military ties. Otherwise, the officer remains on the rolls of his/her service until automatically discharged due to age, years of service, or 2x nonselection for promotion.

Exactly this appears to have happened to Kerry in 1972. The letter I reference above notifies him that this will occur in the near future.

A few Army reserve officers have foud this out the hard way recently when they were recently recalled to active duty after the end of their obligated service. They had never resigned their commission. Per standard policy, they had been transferred to the Army's IRR - and were recalled some time thereafter due to Army needs.
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[JP]

Thanks to Hondo for the heads up on the transfer to the Standby Reserve. Missed it. Embarrassing, but my faith in BUPERS is restored. From a pure chain of documentation standpoint, I don't see any big mystery.

[Hondo]

JP:

Neither do I - regrettably.

I'd love to believe a "bad" discharge in late 1972 or early 1973 (can't be after March 1973, as that's the NLT date for the Carter Vietnam-era discharge review program). Yes, a "bad" discharge is still theoretically possible - but IMO damned unlikely.

Unfortunately, IMO what the facts seem to indicate - and, as a result, what I must unfortunately and reluctantly belive - is a routne transfer to the Standby Reserve, followed by Kerry's non-participation and discharge due to 2x nonselection for LCDR. Without access to ALL of Kerry's records, we'll never know for certain.

S!#T.
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[avant]

[Hondo]

Avant:

I wouldn't put much faith in any article stating that Carter signed "Executive Order 4483". In fact, Carter did not sign ExOrd 4483.

The ExOrds signed by Carter started at 11967 and ran through 12286. Carter never signed ExOrd 4483; EO 4483 was signed sometime well before 1929. (The ExOrds signed by Hoover, whose term started in 1929, began with ExOrd 5075. See http://www.archives.gov/federal_register/executive_orders/disposition_tables.html for more information.)

The article also has other errors of fact, but they are not directly pertinent to the matter under discussion here.

The article you cited also shows a basic lack of understanding regarding federal law and how it impacts the officer discharge process. Officers are not automatically discharged at the end of their service obligation. Officer commissions are for an indefinite period. Barring retirement or discharge due to court-martial action, officers normally remain officers until they either resign voluntarily or are involuntarily separated. Therefore, unless Kerry voluntarily resigned, his discharge would have been involuntary (we know he was not court-martialed and didn't retire). At Kerry's time (and now as well), except for a few legally specified exceptions ANY involuntary officer discharge REQUIRES board action if the individual has enough service as an officer (3yrs in 1978, 5yrs currently).

See my post at http://www2.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=13492 for details. This post relates to 10 USC 1163. A different post in the same forum analyzes 10 USC 1162.

Separations for 2x nonselection for promotion and/or reduction in force actions are each involuntary separations. Either would have REQUIRED board action under applicable law - which in Kerry's day was 10 USC 1162 and 10 USC 1163, and is precisely what is cited on the letter forwarding his honorable discharge.

In short, there's nothing nefarious in and of itself about the review of Kerry's dicharge by a board of officers. With a few specified exceptions, that was - and still is - REQUIRED BY LAW if the officer meets specified service criteria and the separation is involuntary. Kerry met the service criteria in effect in 1978 (3 or more years of service as an officer) to require that any involuntary discharge be reviewed by a board of officers.

It is still possible Kerry got a "bad" discharge (e.g., something other than an honorable discharge) which was upgraded in 1978 - though my analysis of the timing and other known facts convinces me that this is very unlikely to have been the case. It is INCORRECT to imply that Kerry receiving a discharge upgrade is the only possible explanation for Kerry receiving an honorable discharge in 1978. There are at least two plausible and legitimate explanations (2x nonselect to LCDR or a post-Vietnam USNR RIF board to clear the rolls of nonparticipating USNR officers) for Kerry receiving an honorable discharge at that time that do not require the upgrade of some previous "bad" discharge. I personally think it was the former (2x nonselection for LCDR).

Without access to all of Kerry's Navy records, unfortunately we'll never know for certain.
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"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill

[NavyChief]

Hondo,

Your posts are well thought out. I just would like to point out once again that Kerry was not eligible for promotion in Selected Reserves-Inactive list. None of the people in that category are eligible for promotion. Additionally, being twice non-select was handled under separate titles of the US code, not sections 1162 and 1163.

Please, adjust your posting on this particular instance -- it helps to read and understand all the applicable laws that go into this investigation.

Thanks,

- Chief
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Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work?

[SBD]

I particularly liked this sentence of the story.

"Reporting for duty"? For a guy who's hitched his entire presidential campaign to his military service record, John Kerry sure is parsimonious when it comes to releasing that record.

I almost fell over laughing when I read that!!


Sorry, not that it's a laughing matter.


SBD

[NavyChief]

p.s. More is coming on Kerry's Discharge

- Chief
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Working with Senator Kerry four years in the POW/MIA Office left me thinking -- when did the man ever do any work?

[debewley]

Navy Chief,
Some blogs are reporting a story to be printed in the Washington Times on Monday.


http://www.redstate.org/story/2004/10/23/83256/635

Any information you might add to this?

Just curious!!!
Dave
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Served with US Army in Americal Division 2/69 to 9/70.