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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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 Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:05 pm Post subject: What Captain Abbott says........ |
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| I just talked to a retired captain, and he told me he never heard of a CNO directly approving a SS in Vietnam and that he is pretty sure Zumwalt did not have the authority to approve the award. Today he would be correct, only the SECNAV can, but did CNO's have the authority in 1969? |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: What Captain Abbott says........ |
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| The bandit wrote: | | I just talked to a retired captain, and he told me he never heard of a CNO directly approving a SS in Vietnam and that he is pretty sure Zumwalt did not have the authority to approve the award. Today he would be correct, only the SECNAV can, but did CNO's have the authority in 1969? |
Zummie was not CNO at the time. He was a 3 strar and COMNAVFORV. I personally have a Silver Star that was awarded in the spring of '69. The accompanying letter was signed by SECNAV but it looks like a stamp rather than original signature. The citation itself was signed by Zummie.
The action involved took place on 11 Jan 69 and I received the award in either late April or early May; pinned on by Zummie himself in Nha Be.
My boat engineer received a Navy Cross in the same action. His Citation, I believe, was signed by SECNAV; as was his transmittal letter. He received it about a month after I received my Silver Star.
For what it's worth, here's Kevin's citation. Mine is not available on line and transmittal and citation are in my safe-deposit box.
| Quote: | Gillotte, Kevin
Engineer Third Class, U.S. Navy
TF 117, River Squadron 9 ( ASP Boat-92-8, River Assault Division 92
Date of Action: January 11, 1969
Citation:
The Navy Cross is awarded to Engineer Third Class Kevin Gillotte, United States Navy, for extraordinary heroism on 11 January 1969 while serving with United States forces engaged in riverine assault operations against enemy aggressor forces in the Republic of Vietnam. With Petty Officer Gillotte embarked as engineer, Assault Support Patrol Boat (ASPB) 92-8 was assigned as a participating unit of Operation Giant Slingshot. The craft had moored in a night defensive position alongside an Army LCM-8 Mobile Fire Support Base on a shallow, narrow canal when ASPB 92-8 came under sudden mortar attack, finding itself in the center of the impact area. Although wounded in the leg, Petty Officer Gillotte responded immediately to the seriousness of the situation by assisting the boat captain in rousing the crew to man their stations, and then made his way forward to throw off the entangled mooring line. Standing exposed to incoming mortar rounds on the forecastle of the boat, Petty Officer Gillotte was again wounded by shrapnel, but eventually succeeded in freeing the fouled line. Upon hearing the cries of the machine gunner, he climbed on top of the gun mount, removed his seriously wounded shipmate, rendered immediate medical aid, and threw his own body over the incapacitated victim to shield him from further injury. After ASPB 92-8 cleared the kill zone, Petty Officer Gillotte risked harmful burns when he entered the engine compartment to work on an engine damaged by shrapnel that caused extreme overheating. He remained at his station tending the damaged engine until the boat secured alongside a landing ship on the main river; only then allowing himself to be relieved in order to seek medical attention. His inspiring courage and selfless dedication were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Naval Service. |
BTW, I was the POinC of the boat and the senior NCO on site. I drafted this citation as well as my own without specifying the level of awards, if any. This was common practice in the Brown Water Navy and I suspect the same was true in Swift Service. Probably even more so, as they had commissioned officers servings as OinC rather that senior Petty Officers as was common in PBR and Riverine service.
I suspect Kerry may have done the same thing. In our case the after action report was signed by all crew members confirming what took place in the action. I wonder if this was true of Kerry's award!
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 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB
Last edited by ASPB on Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:59 pm; edited 5 times in total |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Let me re-phrase that a little better: He never heard of anyone under a SECNAV approving the SS. Remember Zumwalt said he personally approved it. Was your SS approved by Zumwalt? How long did it take to be approved? |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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Transmittal was signed by (or stamped: that's what it looks like) by SECNAV. The citations was signed by Zummie! See my post above regarding the dates.
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:14 pm Post subject: Re: What Captain Abbott says........ |
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| ASPB wrote: |
I suspect Kerry may have done the same thing. In our case the after action report was signed by all crew members confirming what took place in the action. I wonder if this was true of Kerry's award! |
Got three FOIA requests in the pipeline to answer just that. I found Elliot's e-mail, we should ask him!
So far it is still open question I guess over whether SECNAV was the only one authorized to approve the SS. Your SS took 5 months vs. just days for Kerry's, so that makes it confusing because if Zumwalt had the authority then why did it take your SS months. Pretty weird when you consider Kerry's PH's took a helluva lot longer to approve then his SS (must been in a twilight zone where everything was suddenly reversed.)
Here is the current (2002) instruction I dug up that are relevant:
SECNAVINST 1650.1G
113. AUTHORITY TO APPROVE AWARDS
1. The Medal of Honor is approved and awarded by the
President in the name of Congress.
2. The Defense Distinguished Service Medal and Defense
Superior Service Medal are approved and awarded by SECDEF
in the name of the President.
3. The Navy Cross, Distinguished Service Medal, and
Silver Star Medal are approved and awarded by SECNAV in the
name of the President.
2-15
4. Silver Star (SS)
a. Authorization. 10 U.S.C. 6244.
b. Eligibility Requirements
(1) Awarded to a person who, while serving in any
capacity with the Navy or Marine Corps, is cited for gallantry
in action that does not warrant a Medal of Honor or Navy Cross.
(a) while engaged in an action against an enemy
of the United States;
(b) while engaged in military operations involving
conflict with an opposing foreign force; or
(c) while serving with friendly foreign forces
engaged in an armed conflict against an opposing armed force in
which the United States is not a belligerent party.
SECNAVINST 1650.1G
(2) The heroic act(s) performed must render the
individual conspicuous and well above the standard expected. An
accumulation of minor acts of heroism normally does not justify
the award, but unusual or exceptional cases will be decided on
their merits. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that the approvals came from SECNAV via TWX after COMNAVFORV had submitted the recommendations and proposed citations to SECNAV via TWX.
This would explain why the transmittals appear to have a stamped signature and the actual citation certificate was signed in country by Zummie.
It doesn't explain the fact track on the Kerry award. I can tell you for a fact that a 4 to 5 month turnaround was the norm in Naval Forces in country in '69
So why was Kerry's fasttracked? Who drafted the citation and the after action report? Those are my questions, Bandit.
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:37 pm Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: | I suspect, though I don't know for sure, that the approvals came from SECNAV via TWX after COMNAVFORV had submitted the recommendations and proposed citations to SECNAV via TWX.
This would explain why the transmittals appear to have a stamped signature and the actual citation certificate was signed in country by Zummie.
It doesn't explain the fact track on the Kerry award. I can tell you for a fact that a 4 to 5 month turnaround was the norm in Naval Forces in country in '69
So why was Kerry's fasttracked? Who drafted the citation and the after action report? Those are my questions, Bandit. |
Another question you can throw in is why is there was two different citations issued for the same medal signed by two different brass. CINCPAC issued a SS citation for Kerry and is signed by Admiral John Hyland. So we have both Zummie and Hyland issuing SS citations for shooting a fleeing kid (ooops I forgot, the latest political correct way of describing it is the kid was standing and aiming a B-40 ready to kill everyone.)
Go figure...... |
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cgc
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 47
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:08 am Post subject: Who signed what |
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What difference does it make? SECNAV, COMNAVFORV, who cares. Kerry's record in the senate is enough reason to not elect him. He could have the Medal of Honor signed by God and I would not vote for him. He sold us out, and is now trying to identify his 4 1/2 months of service as a reason to vote and make him President. I still remember my welcome back to the U.S. in 1969 and the next 10 years. Kerry is for Kerry period. By the way, his reported actions in Viet Nam do not jive with his actions after discharge, meaning, I think he jumped on the anti-war bandwagon to score what he thought would be political points in the future. I seriously think he now knows it backfired, and he is, and will do everything he can to explain away his actions. He is a full blown opportunist and has no integrity. The thought of him becoming President is revolting.
CGC 68/69 an toi/ danang |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:19 am Post subject: |
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I think that it doesn't matter where or where not along the clain of command the documents were actually signed. That's no more than the fog of bureaucracy IMHO
Theoretically at least, the chain of command for approval of the citation and it's forwarding to the decision maker, e.g. SECNAV would have been
COSDIV 11 - Ellliot
COSRON 1 - ?
CO TF 115 - Hoffman
COMNAVFORV - Zummie
CINCPAC - Hyland
CNO - ?
SECNAV
Two citations signed at different levels at different times may be nothing more than the normal Navy FUBAR Bureaucracy. Unless, of course the language was significantly different.
I would not be surprised if COMNAVFORV copied all up-chain commands on the recommendation and that SECNAV informed by TWX all subordinate commands when notifiying them of his decision.
So CINCPAC and COMNAVFORV both issue citations at two different times.
**** happens! 
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB
Last edited by ASPB on Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:27 am Post subject: Re: Who signed what |
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| cgc wrote: | What difference does it make? SECNAV, COMNAVFORV, who cares. Kerry's record in the senate is enough reason to not elect him. He could have the Medal of Honor signed by God and I would not vote for him. He sold us out, and is now trying to identify his 4 1/2 months of service as a reason to vote and make him President. I still remember my welcome back to the U.S. in 1969 and the next 10 years. Kerry is for Kerry period. By the way, his reported actions in Viet Nam do not jive with his actions after discharge, meaning, I think he jumped on the anti-war bandwagon to score what he thought would be political points in the future. I seriously think he now knows it backfired, and he is, and will do everything he can to explain away his actions. He is a full blown opportunist and has no integrity. The thought of him becoming President is revolting.
CGC 68/69 an toi/ danang |
CGC,
I agree, it doesn't mean a damn thing to you and me but to "prove" to the rest of American voters that he's a lying opportunist we need to develop convincing evidence, not just our heartfelt beliefs.
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: |
COSDIV 11 - Ellliot
COSRON 1 - ?
CO TF 115 - Hoffman
COMNAVFORV - Zummie
CINCPAC - Hyland
CNO - ?
SECNAV
Two citations signed at different levels at different times may be nothing more than the normal Navy FUBAR Bureaucracy. Unless, of course the langauage was significantly different.
I would not be surprised if COMNAVFORV copied all up-chain commands on the recommendation and that SECNAV informed by TWX all subordinate commands when notifiying them of his decision.
So CINCPAC and COMNAVFORV both issue citations at two different times.
@*$! happens! |
Logical. BUT Zummie said he approved it himself! If Zummie approved it, and had authority to do so we shouldn't see Hyland coming out with a citation as well, should we? Would be interesting to learn when Hyland produced the citation he did.
If it is worth anything, draft citations are doubled-spaced: neither Zummies or Hyland's citiations are double spaced, which could suggest these were meant to be the offically approved ones.
There is factual differences between the two, which shouldn't be there.
Only thing really interesting about all this in my mind is, we are talking about the fastest SS ever approved and awarded in history. So it deserves a little additional attention  |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:08 am Post subject: Re: Who signed what |
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| cgc wrote: | What difference does it make? SECNAV, COMNAVFORV, who cares. Kerry's record in the senate is enough reason to not elect him.
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Don't read anything into this discussion, cgc, it is purely for educational purposes only. Plus we are talking about the fastest approved and issued SS in history of the Navy here  |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Bandit wrote:
| Quote: | | Logical. BUT Zummie said he approved it himself! If Zummie approved it, and had authority to do so we shouldn't see Hyland coming out with a citation as well, should we? Would be interesting to learn when Hyland produced the citation he did. |
Do you have a direct quote where Zummie said he "authorized the award" (approved} it himself? I doubt he would have done that, as you've reported and I agree, it was a SECNAV decision. Maybe it's just word parsing.... Recommended?... Approved? These words don't mean either "authorized" or "awarded". See what I mean?
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:33 am Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: | Bandit wrote:
| Quote: | | Logical. BUT Zummie said he approved it himself! If Zummie approved it, and had authority to do so we shouldn't see Hyland coming out with a citation as well, should we? Would be interesting to learn when Hyland produced the citation he did. |
Do you have a direct quote where Zummie said he "authorized the award" (approved} it himself? I doubt he would have done that, as you've reported and I agree, it was a SECNAV decision. Maybe it's just word parsing.... Recommended?... Approved? These words don't mean either "authorized" or "awarded". See what I mean? |
As quoted by Glen Johnson (AP):
Mr. Zumwalt also said he wanted to recommend Sen. Kerry for an even higher medal, the Navy Cross, but approval would have taken too long. Instead, he personally approved a Silver Star and sped along the award to improve morale at a time his sailors were taking heavy casualties. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:55 am Post subject: |
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The Bandit wrote: | Quote: |
Mr. Zumwalt also said he wanted to recommend Sen. Kerry for an even higher medal, the Navy Cross, but approval would have taken too long. Instead, he personally approved a Silver Star and sped along the award to improve morale at a time his sailors were taking heavy casualties. |
Ok, if we take "approved" to mean "endorsed and forwarded recommending prompt action" we may have the answer to what really happened.
Remember this was Feb '69 and Zummie's {or Hoffman's) idea of using Swifts in the rivers, which they weren't designed for, was blowing up in his face and guys like Kerry were whining about the assignment, justly IMHO. He'd made a decision about 60 days earlier to turn over Rivron 9 of TF 117 and a couple of TF 116 PBR Divisions to the Viets; exactly the type of forces and equipment he needed for Sealord. In a nutshell, he'd screwed up.
So now he has a bunch of junior O-types b****ing and whining and figures he'll shut them up, especially the political one, with a few quick "Hero Coins"
You don't get to be COMNAVFORV or CNO without being a political animal yourself. 
Think about it, Bro!
And another thing: "To a be an effective opportunist someone or some event has to give you an opportunity" I think Kerry saw his opportunity in the earlier command meeting in Saigon with Zummie and took it! That's why it's so important to find out who wrote the original draft recommendation IMHO.
Read the headlines if you find the answers:
"Kerry Recommended His Own Silver Star!"
It may not change the election but it would sure make me feel a lot better!
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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