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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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 Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:45 am Post subject: |
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ASPB wrote:
| Quote: | | Ok, if we take "approved" to mean "endorsed and forwarded recommending prompt action" we may have the answer to what really happened. |
Consider he thought about recommending the Cross for Kerry, but decided against it because it would take too long, suggesting he had no influence to speed such things up. Because of these remarks, I think it would be safe to conclude he meant he approved the awarding himself, bypassing higher-ups. So then were back to the question of did the Admiral have the authority to bypass the SECNAV to award the SS? Obiviously he did not for the Cross or Kerry would be parading a Navy Cross in front of us today (cough cough cough). Maybe someone will recall what navy instructions were in affect for '69.
ASPB Wrote:
| Quote: | Remember this was Feb '69 and Zummie's idea of using Swifts in the rivers, which they weren't designed for, was blowing up in his face and guys like Kerry were whining about the assignment, justly IMHO. He'd made a decision about 60 days earlier to turn over Rivron 9 of TF 117 and a couple of TF 116 PBR Divisions to the Viets; exactly the type of forces and equipment he needed for Sealord. In a nutshell, he'd screwed up.
So now he has a bunch of junior O-types b****ing and whining and figures
he'll shut them up, especially the political one, with a few quick "Hero
Coins"
You don't get to be COMNAVFORV or CNO without being a political animal
yourself.
Think about it, Bro!
And another thing: "To a be an effective opportunist someone or some event has to give you an opportunity" I think Kerry saw his opportunity in the earlier command meeting in Saigon with Zummie and took it! |
Here is my take: Kerry returned from his mission with a sweetened tale of how he saved his crew and swift from an instant inferno and death by bravely jumping off his boat just in the nick of time and killing some kid who was within seconds of returning everyone to their maker. The sweeten part is just what it took for Elliot to spare Kerry from what he really deserved. Of course when Zumwalt got word of the sweet tale he laped it up without question. We now know you got to question anything that comes from Kerry, like Rassmann picking up the phone only 2 days before Iowa primary and saying he wants to help - and bingo has a flight with only hours to spare!! Rightttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:08 am Post subject: |
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The Bandit Wrote:
| Quote: | | So then were back to the question of did the Admiral have the authority to bypass the SECNAV to award the SS? Obiviously he did not for the Cross or Kerry would be parading a Navy Cross in front of us today (cough cough cough). Maybe someone will recall what navy instructions were in affect for '69. |
Bandit,
I think you're wrong on this one. Your own reporting indicates that a Silver Star and the Cross are both a SECNAV decision. I think it was the same then as it is now. Remember, even if it was a stamp, my Star transmittal was signed by SECNAV. I think the Cross my engineer received was handled the same way.
One thing you don't do in the Navy is "assume authority". You may work around it if it serves your purposes. It's called "back-channelling". It was called this then and my friends on active duty call it the same thing today.
There's no way, in my opinion, Zummie had the "authority to award" but he sure as hell had the back-channel contacts to get what he wanted and to get it as fast as he wanted.
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:33 am Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: |
I think you're wrong on this one. Your own reporting indicates that a Silver Star and the Cross are both a SECNAV decision. I think it was the same then as it is now. Remember, even if it was a stamp, my Star transmittal was signed by SECNAV. I think the Cross my engineer received way handled the same way.
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I wouldn't be surprised if I am. Consider for a moment: do you know of anyone who recieved a citation signed by Hyland for their SS? |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:36 am Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | | ASPB wrote: |
I think you're wrong on this one. Your own reporting indicates that a Silver Star and the Cross are both a SECNAV decision. I think it was the same then as it is now. Remember, even if it was a stamp, my Star transmittal was signed by SECNAV. I think the Cross my engineer received was handled the same way.
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I wouldn't be surprised if I am. Consider for a moment: do you know of anyone who recieved a citation signed by Hyland for their SS? |
No I personally don't! In fact I never saw an award certificate in country from NCM with combat/V thru NAVCROSS that wasn't signed by Zummie but, I was only there for a full 12 month tour! 
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:48 am Post subject: |
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Speaking of Combat V's tell me what is wrong with this picture from his online DD 214:
National Defense Service - Bronze Star with Combat "V"
Vietnam Service - Silver Star with combat "V"
Vietnam Campaign - Purple Heart (3 awards)
T. Vanstrydonck |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:57 am Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | Speaking of Combat V's tell me what is wrong with this picture from his online DD 214:
National Defense Service - Bronze Star with Combat "V"
Vietnam Service - Silver Star with combat "V"
Vietnam Campaign - Purple Heart (3 awards)
T. Vanstrydonck |
Well, the first thing that comes to mind is there is no such thing as a combat "V" on a Silver Star. It's a combat only award.
Vietnam Service ?? I'd have to look back. Is There such an award?
Vietnam Campaign? How many campaigns? For Kerry 1, possibly 2. I have 3 from a full year.
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:06 pm Post subject: |
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I think we are left with at least two fundamental questions from this exercise:
1) If NAVINST/Administrative Procedure are the same for both the SS and Cross, why was it Zummie could get a historical fasttrack approval for the SS and not the Cross that he wanted to award in the first place? Zummies explanation makes absolutely no sense if the Administrative Procedure were the same for both; he should have been able to fasttrack either award. Right? No?
2) Why in the world does the Pacific Fleet get involved in issuing a SS citation for Kerry when it supposed to go to the NAVSEC for approval and issue? Only time the SECVAV signature appears is in 1986 when Kerry requests replacements. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:20 pm Post subject: |
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| The bandit wrote: | I think we are left with at least two fundamental questions from this exercise:
1) If NAVINST/Administrative Procedure are the same for both the SS and Cross, why was it Zummie could get a historical fasttrack approval for the SS and not the Cross that he wanted to award in the first place? Zummies explanation makes absolutely no sense if the Administrative Procedure were the same for both; he should have been able to fasttrack either award. Right? No?
2) Why in the world does the Pacific Fleet get involved in issuing a SS citation for Kerry when it supposed to go to the NAVSEC for approval and issue? Only time the SECVAV signature appears is in 1986 when Kerry requests replacements. |
Bandit,
This is pure speculation but it's possible that when the administrative load got heavy SECNAV at the request of COMNAVFORV delegated the decision making to CINCPAC.
This didn't happen with mine but..... who knows, if Zummie wants to move fast on the higher awards starting, say in Feb of '69, he goes to SECNAV and says," hey, I really need an expedited procedure for morale purposes". SECNAV says, OK but only for Stars and not for Crosses you can have CINCPAC approve them. HMMMM....
It fits my "Hero Coin" theory for improving morale...I think 
Just speculation.
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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jalexson
PO3
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 272
Location: Hutchinson, Kansas
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| Posted: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:56 am Post subject: |
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| ASPB wrote: |
Ok, if we take "approved" to mean "endorsed and forwarded recommending prompt action" we may have the answer to what really happened.
Remember this was Feb '69 and Zummie's {or Hoffman's) idea of using Swifts in the rivers, which they weren't designed for, was blowing up in his face and guys like Kerry were whining about the assignment, justly IMHO. He'd made a decision about 60 days earlier to turn over Rivron 9 of TF 117 and a couple of TF 116 PBR Divisions to the Viets; exactly the type of forces and equipment he needed for Sealord. In a nutshell, he'd screwed up.
So now he has a bunch of junior O-types b****ing and whining and figures he'll shut them up, especially the political one, with a few quick "Hero Coins"
You don't get to be COMNAVFORV or CNO without being a political animal yourself.
Think about it, Bro!
And another thing: "To a be an effective opportunist someone or some event has to give you an opportunity" I think Kerry saw his opportunity in the earlier command meeting in Saigon with Zummie and took it! That's why it's so important to find out who wrote the original draft recommendation IMHO.
Read the headlines if you find the answers:
"Kerry Recommended His Own Silver Star!"
It may not change the election but it would sure make me feel a lot better! |
I think you have it. It also wouldn't have looked good to have to court martial an OIC for disregarding orders. Besides body counts were still a big deal and Kerry was racking up the body count even if some were civilians who might have been friendlies and My Lai exposure was still in the future.
_________________
"That awful power, the public opinion of a nation, is created in America by a horde of ignorant, self-complacent simpletons who failed at ditching and shoe making and fetched up in journalism on their way to the poor house."
-- Mark Twain |
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