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xleatherneck
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 21
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 Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:08 am Post subject: Check this out |
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Want to see the lengths some people will go to rationalize John Kerry's Senate testimony?
The following is from a discussion board thread and the poster is responding to Kerry's Christmas in Cambodia.
| Quote: | The fact is that during the Vietnam War US troops were sent illegally into Cambodia, and that the president of the US lied in denying this. Do you dispute this?
The point of Kerry's testimony was to remind people of this. And on that point, he was right. So if what you are interested in is whether the point that Kerry was making, that US troops had been illegally in Cambodia, was correct, then I can end this post here. There's little point your spending time on my verbiage when you could more profitably be spending time reading up on details from a shameful period in US history that your teachers may have short-changed you on in school.
But a lot of people raising this example aren't really interested in whether Kerry's point was right. They're talking about whether Kerry got the details of the particular illustration he used correct.
So if it's the details of Kerry's specific illustration, rather than the truth of the overall charge, that you're interested in, let's look at those details. Was Kerry (a) in Cambodia (b) on Christmas Eve, 1968, and (c) did the president of the US deny a US presence in Cambodia?
(a) Was Kerry ever in Cambodia during his term in Vietnam? From what I've read, I think he likely was. The arguments that he was never in Cambodia seem weak, especially when his arch opponent John O'Neill is on tape talking about how he (O'Neill) had been in Cambodia.
(b) Was Kerry in Cambodia Christmas Eve of 1968? I don't really care whether it was Christmas Eve (meaning the evening of December 24), Christmas Eve (meaning anytime during the day of December 24), Christmas Day, Thanksgiving, New Years Eve, or some-non-holiday-day when Kerry was in Cambodia. Quibbling about his recollection of the date, when the point was that he was in Cambodia when US troops should not have been, seems to me a very desperate form of nit-picking in order to evade the point of his testimony.
(c) Did the US president deny a US presence in Cambodia? Yes, although not necessarily on the day that Kerry was there. I have no trouble with the idea that Kerry took two strong memories -- one of being in Cambodia illegally, one of the president of the US denying this -- and mixed them together.
[poster's name deleted] already said it well in his response. If you're going to charge that the substance of Kerry's charges was false, then you should be able to provide examples of that. Since no one (as far as I know) is denying that US troops were in Cambodia illegally during the Vietnam War, and that the president of the US lied about this to the US public, the use of "Christmas in Cambodia" as an example seems to underscore how weak the case against his testimony is. |
(Admin note: edited out the link - we don't post links to discussion boards on other sites here because they tend to promote forum wars - not pretty, not fun to clean up. Thanks, EJ  )
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"We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline in an acceptance speech." |
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shooter
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Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 180
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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Obviously this moron never read Mr. O'Neils' book. I guess 55 miles from Cambodia counts as close enough for dumbocrats. Never mind the sniveling coward would have been courtsmartialed if he was caught there.
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ADC USN Ret.
For those that fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know !!
Harley Davidson - If you have to ask, you don't understand !
Gun Control = Double tap - center mass |
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xleatherneck
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, it gets better. The thread is actually about Jane Fonda, and though he does include some urban legends that have been debunked concerning her, he nevertheless defends her choice of words concerning POW's, and uses, among others, Tom Hayden as reference.
He also refuses to read or even acknowledge an excerpt from B.G. Burkett's book "Stolen Valor," claiming it as an otherwise unreliable source.
I believe he is a contemporary of the Viet Nam era, and quite possibly was invovled in the anit war movement of that time.
I'm not involved in the thread and I don't have time to do the research, but maybe somebody from here can go over and put this guy in his rightful place.
Just a suggestion if anyone's interested.
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"We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline in an acceptance speech." |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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Lots more productive to work on the ones who haven't drunk the Kerry KookAde.
You're not going to get anywhere talking to people like that. I just lost another friend of many years' standing over this issue - he is contemporary to the protest-era, too - probably became a teacher to avoid the draft, against this war, thinks Bush is terrible and can no way see Kerry as a traitor.
Wouldn't even look at the Swift ads or Stolen Honor.
You can't win 'em all. Work on the ones that you might have a shot with and ignore the barking moonbats.
Don't throw your pearls before swine.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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xleatherneck
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Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 21
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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You've got a point Navy, and you're probably right. It is very frustrating though seeing people elevate this traitor.
Sorry to hear about your friend.
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"We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline in an acceptance speech." |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 7:48 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah, I hear ya - some days, I'm not strong enough to even look at it.
Degrade and mock an honorable man and let this friggin' traitor take a pass on every evil sellout he's ever committed in his life.
I spend a lot of time writing and a lot more time here. Hard to ever get discouraged or pessimistic with all the people here on this board.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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shooter
Seaman
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 180
Location: New Mexico
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| Posted: Tue Oct 26, 2004 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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Navyx3:
Isn't it amazing that most of those luny leftist, crybaby cowards became teachers and proffessors. What better way to impart the doctrines of Karl Marx:
Separate the children from the parents - state raised
Demonize the church - separate and destroy the belief system
Reverse the natural order - right is wrong / wrong is right
Then we have the feminazis, but don't get me started on the feminization of the youth..... 
_________________
ADC USN Ret.
For those that fought for it, Freedom has a flavor the protected will never know !!
Harley Davidson - If you have to ask, you don't understand !
Gun Control = Double tap - center mass |
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econ
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 11 Sep 2004
Posts: 2
Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:43 am Post subject: |
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| This gentleman, like Kerry, is merely "nuanced." Notice the "ends justfies the means" concept of morality in his response. Based on the assumption he is from the Vietnam era and our age, it is likely his entire memory of the era is some elaborate rationalization. To such people, a confrontation with the truth is hardly a pleasant experience. |
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