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barbgeo
Ensign
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 52
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 Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 12:00 pm Post subject: Can someone distill the discharge status into a simple post |
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| becasue of all the posts regarding the Kerry Discharge situation, I can't for the life of me figure out where things are with this. Can someone put up one post that distills it down so we can all read it without having to go through all the posts to try to figure it out. The don't build a string of other pots around it so it becomes buried agian--very frustrating! Also, it looks like there is a rally on Sunday in D.C., but with all the other cmts being posted I likewise cannot figure this one out either. |
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Nomorelies
Vice Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 977
Location: Texas
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ord33
Rear Admiral
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 670
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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Nomorelies,
I agree, that is one of the best concise articles describing everything. Here is the text from Lt. Col. Robert "Buzz" Patterson for readers without clicking the link....
| Quote: | October Surprise? The Truth Behind Kerry's Military Discharge. What's Kerry Hiding?:
"I have nothing to hide. I want you to ask me questions."
--John Kerry, Reuters, August 3, 2004
The only 180 John Kerry hasn't accomplished in his litany of flip-flops throughout his campaign is Standard Form 180, the paperwork necessary for the complete release of his military records from the Department of Defense repository.
The Kerry campaign and website continue to claim he has released all military records. In fact, they've released the few documents painting the senator in a favorable light. There are at least 100 pages, promising to be much more revealing, still unseen. Kerry controls their release. All he has to do is sign the Form 180. To date, he has refused.
It goes without saying the main stream media isn't clamoring for him to comply although they hounded President George Bush relentlessly to release his Air National Guard records. Bush, by the way, did the right thing--he signed his Form 180. Kerry has made his naval service the focal point for his election. Shouldn't we expect the war hero to open his military service to America? Where is the outrage (I ask tongue-in-cheek)? Where is the objective journalism? More realistically, what is Kerry hiding?
Thomas Lipscomb writing for the New York Sun and Geoff Metcalf of NewsMax.com have been pursuing Kerry's military record irregularities and his refusal to authorize their release tirelessly. Without Kerry's assistance, however, it will take a critical and very timely leak or we will never know the truth behind Kerry's military service in time for it to make the difference.
With true patriotism and integrity, John O'Neill and the Swifties have proven beyond any doubt that Kerry lacks the character and moral fiber to be the leader of our men and women in uniform. (As an aside, I've been touring the country with John O'Neill over the last several weeks, and I've never met a finer human being.)
The final element in Kerry's absolute failure to meet the standards our military deserves in a commander-in-chief, in this retired officer's opinion, is in the factual nature of Kerry's discharge (although I would love for some resourceful citizen find a way to republish and distribute Kerry's radical, anti-American tome The New Soldier -- which my publisher Regnery Publishing has offered to do for free -- and hand it out at the polls on November 2).
As for every veteran, the truth will be found the form DD214, the official Department of Defense document of release from military obligation given to Kerry when he exited military service on July 1, 1972. It is conspicuously absent from the documents released so far. Everyone serving in the military receives a DD214 the day they separate or retire from service. My suspicion along with a growing number of military personnel is that Kerry received an "other than honorable" discharge in the early 1970s as a consequence of his vehement anti-US, anti-military activities with the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and his potentially treasonous tête-à-têtes with North Vietnamese Communist officials in Paris. If not, let him release his records. If so, America should demand the release.
Kerry's activities during his post-war political resume building efforts are expressly prohibited by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, Article 104, Part 904; the United States Code Title 18, Section 953 (18 USC Sec. 953); and, arguably, the Constitution, Article 3, Section 3. In fact, the Constitution's 14th Amendment, Section 3 declares, "No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President . . . (who has) engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof." In another time and another place, at a minimum, Kerry would have faced courts martial. In another time and another place, Kerry would be breaking big rocks into little rocks at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, the military penitentiary. Today, he stands on the brink of election as the leader of the free world.
Kerry has built an entire career based solely on four months in Vietnam and two years of post-war protesting. For a politician to have built so much on, and been so successful with, a foundation consisting largely of self-promotion, lies, and unpatriotic (some say treasonous) endeavors is utterly fantastic and extremely tenuous. And the Dems know it--ergo, the refusal on the part of the Kerry campaign to release the entirety of his military service records.
With what we do know, Kerry's paperwork doesn't pass the smell test. The few records so far released by his campaign identify FOUR "honorable" discharge dates (every other military member I know, myself included, received one). Kerry's released documentation notes discharges of January 3, 1970, February 16, 1978, July 13, 1978, and, most peculiarly, March 12, 2001. He has as many discharge dates as months he spent in Vietnam. In my twenty years in the Air Force and through the thousands of people I came to know and serve with, I have never heard of anyone in the military having more than one DD 214 with one discharge date. Kerry, according to his own campaign, has at least four.
There are five potential classes of discharge: Honorable, General, Other than Honorable, Bad Conduct, and Dishonorable. Why does it matter? It's the sum total of one's military service boiled down in a phrase. Most employers require former military members to attach their DD214 to their employment application. Anything other than "Honorable" is seen as a character flaw. Bad Conduct and Dishonorable obviously are causes for additional concern.
Because Kerry is submitting his employment application to the American people and might become our military's next commander in chief, we may be asking our troops to support a man who held himself to lower standards than he would demand from our 2.3 million in uniform. (This is precisely what happened under Bill Clinton's stewardship when the military prosecuted servicemen for sexual infidelity and harassment while the commander-in-chief was committing similar crimes in the Oval Office). In fact, if a former military member applies for employment with defense related industry, he is required to sign and submit Form 180. Kerry, seeking to be CEO for our nation's defense, has refused.
Here's the crux of the confusion. On February 18, 1966, Kerry obligated himself to a six-year commitment to the Navy, and to the tenets of the military judicial system, with an expiration date of July 1, 1972. On January 3, 1970, Kerry asked for, and was granted, an early transfer from his active duty service to the Naval Reserve. As a reservist, he was still under oath as a commissioned officer and subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. He still carried a military ID card and was still a member of the U.S. armed forces. Kerry's service commitment came to an end, as scheduled, in July, 1972. As such, a DD Form 214 with a discharge status was due.
Kerry's "honorable" discharge, though, doesn't come until February 16, 1978. Why? Possibly because President Jimmy Carter, through Proclamation 4483, granted a full and complete pardon to all military personnel who committed offenses and violations of the Military Selective Service Act during the Vietnam War. He pardoned deserters, draft dodgers and those who went absent without leave (AWOL).
Interestingly, Kerry's honorable discharge letter from the Department of the Navy, dated February 16, 1978, notes that Kerry's discharge was taken "by direction of the President" and "with the approved recommendations of a board of officers convened under the authority of reference [10 USC Sec. 1163] to examine the official records of officers of the Naval Reserve.." This is extremely unusual. Review boards are not convened for discharges and certainly not "by direction of the President." The "authority of reference," 10 USC Sec. 1163, refers to "the grounds for involuntary separation from the service." What was being reviewed, then, was Kerry's involuntary separation from the service or, more likely, the disposition of his service. This simply would not have occurred if Kerry's discharge in 1972 had been "honorable." Why did Kerry's discharge meet a board? In all likelihood, he sought relief to improve his status of discharge from "dishonorable" or "less than honorable" to "honorable." If he signed his Form 180, we'd know. If he'd release his DD214 from 1972, we'd know.
Finally, and most bizarre of all of Kerry's military records so far released is a DD 215, "Correction to DD Form 214," initiated for John Forbes Kerry on March 12, 2001. Among other things, the new form changes Kerry's official US Navy separation date to March 1, 1970! As noted earlier, he wasn't eligible for discharge until July, 1972, and was so. Why, then, the new document in 2001? Why, 29 years later, is there the need to correct or change the record?
Here's why. By moving Kerry's discharge date to early in 1970, all of Kerry's post-Vietnam activities would be theoretically exempt from military justice. By moving his discharge date to March of 1970, Kerry's meeting with the enemy, North Vietnamese Communists in Paris in May of 1970, would be exempt. His joining the Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW) in June of 1970 and his radical, anti-war anti-government activities that followed would be exempt. The Winter Soldier Investigation in January, 1971, and Kerry's infamous testimony to Congress in April, 1971 would be exempt. His arrest for his protest activities in May, 1971, would be exempt. His attendance at a VVAW meeting in Kansas City where the assassination of several prominent and hawkish U.S. senators was discussed and voted on would be exempt.
Democratic presidential candidate Kerry has spent 35 years building a political career on four months in Vietnam. Apparently, he has spent 35 years covering up his post-war activities while still a member of the U.S. Navy many of which seem to be clear violations of the Constitution, US Codes, and the Uniform Code of Military Justice.
Now, he stands on the verge of becoming our commander-in-chief, responsible for the stewardship of 2.3 million men and women in uniform. A former serviceman who won't come clean on his own record intends to command our forces and enforce the standards of military justice. We've been down this path before. America deserves to know. Our troops certainly deserve to know.
All it would take is for him to sign the Form 180. |
http://www.humaneventsonline.com/blog-buzzcut.php?range=10%2F24%2F2004+-+10%2F30%2F2004 |
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igor
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 81
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| kimberly wrote: | STOP THE MADNESS- LEARN THE TRUTH
MARCH ON WASHINGTON
TO STOP JOHN KERRY
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How about...
SECRETS OF JOHN KERRY EXPOSED ON SUNDAY
LEARN THE TRUTH - MARCH ON WASHINGTON
TO STOP JOHN KERRY
or
SECRETS JOHN KERRY DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW
LEARN THE TRUTH - MARCH ON WASHINGTON
TO STOP JOHN KERRY |
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barbgeo
Ensign
Joined: 23 Aug 2004
Posts: 52
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 1:25 pm Post subject: Understand the issue-when will the boom be lowered |
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| I understand the issue of the discharge. What I'm trying to find out is how far along this is in being exposed. We haven't much time to get this out. As someone pointed out, it is best to rip into this jerk now rather than wait until later. If by any chance he gets elected--God forbid--an impeachment as we all found out with "slick" is one tough thing to go through. |
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Hondo
LCDR
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 423
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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Posting this for the benefit of any "newbies" out there who need to get up to speed quickly on the facts. If I've goofed anywhere, please advise and I'll fix it.
Here’s the “Readers Digest” version:
1. Kerry enlists in the US Naval Reserve on 18 Feb 1966, incurring a six-year obligation. This obligation expires on 17 Feb 1972.
2. Kerry enters active duty for OCS on 19 Aug 1966. He receives a DD214 on 15 Dec 1966. This DD214 documents his transfer to officer status – it is NOT a discharge.
3. Kerry serves on active duty as a Naval officer from 15 Dec 1966 through 3 January 1970. He receives a DD214 on this latter date. This DD214 is also NOT a discharge – it documents his transfer to inactive status in the USNR.
4. While still on active duty, Kerry begins to support antiwar causes. He piloted the plane taking David Walinsky and others to antiwar activities on 15 October 1969. This was a Wednesday. Kerry’s leave records do not show him taking any leave in October 1969.
5. Kerry continues his antiwar activities while still a member of the USNR in 1970-72 (meetings in Paris with the NV/VC, competing in the antiwar "medal toss" olympics, lying to Congress).
6. Kerry is transferred to the standby reserve – inactive sometime in mid or late 1972. The documents he has released relating to this transfer are incomplete, but the transfer seems to have been effective 1 Jul 1972. The documents relating to Kerry’s transfer to the standby reserve are dated 1 Mar 1972 and 16 Aug 1972.
7. Kerry receives an honorable discharge on 16 Feb 1978. The letter forwarding his honorable discharge references 10 USC 1162, 10 USC 1163, and BUPERSMAN 3830300. The former two references are now defunct, but as effective in 1978 allowed the president to discharge officers and related to board actions leading to involuntary discharge of officers. Haven't been able to locate the latter.
No smoking gun here – but IMO plenty of smoke. Kerry apparently never resigned his commission (reserve officers are not automatically discharged when their obligated service ends; to be discharged, reserve officers must submit a resignation or be discharged as the result of administrative or legal action). Kerry also refuses to allow public access to his entire Navy record. The public therefore does not know with certainty what is in Kerry’s navy record – if anything – between 16 Aug 1972 and 16 Feb 1978.
I suspect something is there – and that it is derogatory, or Kerry would have released his entire service record. Rumor has it that Kerry received an “undesirable” discharge for antiwar activities occurring either while he was still on active duty or while on inactive duty in the USNR.
Kerry has taken way too much political heat on this issue to be making a stand on principle (assuming he has any principles ) on privacy grounds. The Navy has also confirmed to Judicial Watch that there are a substantial number of documents in Kerry’s record that have not been publicly released.
I for one would dearly love to know what is there.
_________________
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing worth a war, is worse."
-- John Stuart Mill |
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MikeGranby
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: Understand the issue-when will the boom be lowered |
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| barbgeo wrote: | | I understand the issue of the discharge. What I'm trying to find out is how far along this is in being exposed. We haven't much time to get this out. |
Quite. Sorry to be down on this, but I think that this whole rally thing is a very bad idea. Like one poster said over on FreeRepublic, if someone has the goods on Kerry, get them to Drudge et al as quickly as possible and give this story some time to run. If they don't have the goods, then the rally is going to be a waste of time. You and I know that there's something ugly lurking in Kerry's records, but unless there's 100% proof, no-one in the mainstream media is going to touch this story. When you add-in all the problems you're going to have with congestion on Sunday, the rally simply doesn't make sense. |
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Tom Poole
Vice Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 914
Location: America
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:16 pm Post subject: |
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| barbgeo wrote: | | ...I'm trying to find out is how far along this is... |
| Hondo wrote: | | ...No smoking gun here... |
Thanks for posting the essence because I've been here for a long time and it helped me distill all the stuff I've learned. I'd like to make some additional points. First, barbgeo wants to know what we all want to know. What do we really have? Secondly, if it's a smoking gun, when will it be released? Finally, what will be the salient connection between the rally and the smoking gun? BTW, I can't make it but will be there in spirit (that's about all I have left).
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'58 Airedale HMR(L)-261 VMO-2 |
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Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:27 pm Post subject: |
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| It was posted early yesterday that Navy Chief had located the former Secretary of the Navy who had verified to him that Kerry did receive an Other Than Honorable Discharge. That is out on the Internet at many Blogs. However, later in the day it was posted that the "right people" might not come forward until after the election and all of the pertinent info concerning this was removed from this Site. ie; the disclaimer posted above. If you are asking if anyone will be stepping forward on Sunday to prove undeniably that Kerry originally had a Less Than Honorable Discharge then I would assume "no." Thomas Lipscombe is also working on this story with an ex-JAG officer in California and they have said that they do not have hard proof yet. Hope that helps clarify for you. If this is not an officially sanctioned SWiftVets Rally then I also think it is a bad idea. You could very easily be viewed as a bunch of crackpots and cause the vital people who need to get the truth of this story to distance themselves from you. . |
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Jesse
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 06 Oct 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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To me this is simple question to answer. You have no doubt heard the saying;
If it's not broke don't try and fix it.
We know for sure, from documents Kerry has released, that there has been some "fixing" going on re. Kerry's discharge status. This alone is solid, logical, proof that something was "broke" concerning Kerry's original discharge.
We really don't need to see the original discharge to know this.
Last edited by Jesse on Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:03 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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1AD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 27 Aug 2004
Posts: 138
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeGranby wrote: |
| barbgeo wrote: |
I understand the issue of the discharge. What I'm trying to find out is how far along this is in being exposed. We haven't much time to get this out. |
Quite. Sorry to be down on this, but I think that this whole rally thing is a very bad idea. Like one poster said over on FreeRepublic, if someone has the goods on Kerry, get them to Drudge et al as quickly as possible and give this story some time to run. If they don't have the goods, then the rally is going to be a waste of time. You and I know that there's something ugly lurking in Kerry's records, but unless there's 100% proof, no-one in the mainstream media is going to touch this story. When you add-in all the problems you're going to have with congestion on Sunday, the rally simply doesn't make sense. |
Respectfully dissent. With our Metro (subway system) there is no congestion. You park for free on Sundays. It will take you within a few blocks of where we need to be. For me that is at the rally. As for 100% proof Navy Chief has never let us down. As for revealing anything this website is crawling with trolls who also analyze and try to hit you with viruses.
Last edited by 1AD on Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:05 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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CTW
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 691
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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The point to all this is:
1. The documents tying the communists to the VVAW, activities and monies, and therefore Kerry, have been found and need to be seen by the public. They are in agreement with the FBI files we have acessed.
2. Kerry's military records have not been released in total and there are serious questions regarding the dates and type of discharge (taking in consideration of the executive orders of the time, Nixon's mandate to leave him alone so as not to elevate him to a martyr, etc)
3. The Bush campaign takes the position, as I understand it, that the election must take place and they don't want any backlash. They cannot call him on any of this now. The win at the polls is too important. Clean no muss.
4. The media, all the media, are slamming President Bush, are blatantly trying to get Kerry elected. The American people will not know any of this information before they vote if we wait for the media to tell them. Are we that dependant on the TV pundits???? Should he have to be impeached, the media will have a field day and make lots of money. They are not for informing the people "fair and balanced". They are inventing news every minute of the day.
So do we stand up and get the story told? How? or do we just sit and hope? Is it worth trying to tell people of the information so they can consider it before they vote? CTW
Never Ever Kerry |
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Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| CTW wrote: |
So do we stand up and get the story told? How? or do we just sit and hope? Is it worth trying to tell people of the information so they can consider it before they vote? CTW
Never Ever Kerry |
Only if you have all of the documentation needed to prove what you are saying. Thomas Lipscombe said that it is not all there yet. |
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ashter
Seaman
Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 185
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Understand the issue-when will the boom be lowered |
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MikeGranby,
the MSM won't touch it. We have all sent our facts to Drudge and the like and the best we can get is for someone to say something during an interview. A rally may get the news media's attention and that's what we need. We have proof. It's the lib's that continue to tell people that the Swifties are liers, without showing 1 proof of evidence. These guys could get sued, but to date, not 1 lawsuit has been filed. |
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Tom Poole
Vice Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 914
Location: America
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| Posted: Sat Oct 30, 2004 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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It's curious that we've heard nothing from Humpty who usually has the biggest mouth in politics. No whines, no rebukes, no "liar, liar, pants on fire" retorts, no eloquent rebuttals --NOTHING! What's he up to?
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'58 Airedale HMR(L)-261 VMO-2 |
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