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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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 Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:37 am Post subject: An Apology for Abu Ghraib |
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Received this in email tonight, but the original author is unknown to me. For the most part, I have to share in the sentiments;
| Quote: | For good and ill, the Iraqi prisoner abuse mess will remain an issue. On the one hand, right thinking Americans will abhor the stupidity of the actions while on the other hand, political glee will take control and fashion this minor event into some modern day My Lai massacre.
I heard some Arabs and Muslims are asking for an apology. I humbly offer my comments here:
I am sorry that the last seven times we Americans took up arms and sacrificed the blood of our youth, it was in the defense of Muslims
(Bosnia, Kosovo, Gulf War 1, Kuwait, etc.).
I am sorry that no such call for an apology upon the extremists came after 9/11.
I am sorry that all of the murderers on 9/11 were Islamic Arabs.
I am sorry that most Arabs and Muslims have to live in squalor under savage dictatorships. I am sorry that their leaders squander their wealth.
I am sorry that their governments breed hate for the US in their religious schools, mosques, and government-controlled media.
I am sorry that Yasir Arafat was kicked out of every Arab country and highjacked the Palestinian "cause".
I am sorry that no other Arab country will take in or offer more than a token amount of financial help to those same Palestinians.
I am sorry that the USA has to step in and be the biggest financial supporter of poverty stricken Arabs while the insanely wealthy Arabs blame the USA for all their problems.
I am sorry that our own left wing elite, our media, and our own brainwashed (from elements of our society like radical professors, CNN and the NY & LA TIMES) masses do not understand any of this.
I am sorry the United Nations scammed the poor people of Iraq out of the "food for oil" money so they could get rich while the common folk suffered.
I am sorry that some Arab governments pay the families of homicide bombers upon their death.
I am sorry that those same bombers are brainwashed thinking they will receive 72 virgins in "paradise."
I am sorry that the homicide bombers think pregnant women, babies, children, the elderly and other noncombatant civilians are legitimate targets.
I am sorry that our troops die to free more Arabs from the gang rape rooms and the filling of mass graves of dissidents of their own making.
I am sorry that Muslim extremists have killed more Arabs than any other group.
I am sorry that foreign trained terrorists are trying to seize control of Iraq and return it to a terrorist state.
I am sorry we don't drop a few dozen Daisy cutters on Fallujah.
I am sorry every time terrorists hide they find a convenient "Holy Site".
I am sorry they didn't apologize for driving a jet into the World Trade Center that collapsed and severely damaged Saint Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church - one of our Holy Sites.
I am sorry they didn't apologize for flights 77, 93, 96 and 175, the USS Cole, the embassy bombings, the murders and beheadings of Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl, etc....etc!
I am sorry Michael Moore is American; he could feed a medium sized village in Africa.
America will get past this latest absurdity. We will punish those responsible because that is what we do. We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see. We move on. That's one of the reasons we are hated so much. We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.
Deep down inside, when most Americans saw this reported in the news, we were like - so what? We lost hundreds and made fun of a few prisoners.
Sure, it was wrong. Sure, it dramatically hurts our cause. But until captured we were trying to kill these same prisoners. Now we're supposed to wring our hands because a few were humiliated? Our compassion is tempered with the vivid memories of our own people killed, mutilated and burnt amongst a joyous crowd of celebrating Fallujans.
If you want an apology from this American, you're going to have a long wait. You have a better chance of finding those 72 virgins.
God Bless America |
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blackfrancis
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:26 am Post subject: |
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More Abu Ghraib Prisoners Released.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C120546%2C00.html
one could wonder if these people were criminals, why they are being released. If they were not, why would it be okay to torture them? I can see no way anyone can defend their actions. |
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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"Abu Ghraib Prisoners Released"
Oh goody the prisoners are released. The war must be over. Let’s bring home the troops and begin on the parades.
The way that the media is covering this little episode of Americans behaving badly has wrongfully become the focal point of this war for many. It is distorting the public’s opinion of what is going on in the war on terror. Over time this bias coverage is going to erode public support of the troops…
Does this have a familiar ring?
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"Peace is our Profession"
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MikeWinn
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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BlackFrancis said:
| Quote: | More Abu Ghraib Prisoners Released.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C120546%2C00.html
one could wonder if these people were criminals, why they are being released. If they were not, why would it be okay to torture them? I can see no way anyone can defend their actions. |
Guess what, Bubba? Bottom line, THEY WERE RELEASED!! Can you make the same claim for them when they executed their 'criminal' civilian prisoners??? 
Geeeez, lefties, can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em.
_________________
LOCK & LOAD!
GunnerMike
Spectre Gunner and 141 FE
Dedicated to Rico. KIA March 14, 1971.
Love ya man. |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:05 pm Post subject: |
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| The left-wing liberal elite? Now who would that be: Michael Moore whose father was a United Auto worker. How 'bout Barbara Ehrenreich, who comes from a working-class background. Or maybe Martin Sheen, whose parents were immigrants and worked their way into the middle class? I could go on, but I won't. |
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MikeWinn
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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ROTCdad said:
| Quote: | | The left-wing liberal elite? Now who would that be: Michael Moore whose father was a United Auto worker. How 'bout Barbara Ehrenreich, who comes from a working-class background. Or maybe Martin Sheen, whose parents were immigrants and worked their way into the middle class? I could go on, but I won't. |
It's interesting that you defend these 3 (very famous, very wealthy, and very liberal, and very elite in the socio-economic stratus) as not being who, by definition, are just that.
Stumbled? woops 
_________________
LOCK & LOAD!
GunnerMike
Spectre Gunner and 141 FE
Dedicated to Rico. KIA March 14, 1971.
Love ya man. |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Not at all,
We all aspire to achieve(at least I do) either financially, spiritually, or physically. Just because they have achieved, does not make them part of an elite. The arguement from the marginalized right has always been that the liberal, left-wing elite is nothing more than silver-spoon fed, latte-drinking, rich, spoiled brats. These three, and there are many many more, prove that to be a falsehood.
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waltjones
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 392
Location: 'bout 40 miles north of Seattle
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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Naughty, naughty, ROTC_DAD; it appears that you've made something else up or read something that wasn't there. Who said the words "left-wing liberal elite" in this thread besides YOU??? I mean, are you on bad drugs or something? You can't just make crap up and then not expect to be challenged on it!
Is this your latest troll tactic: saying that somebody said something they didn't say, and then acting all self-righteous about it? Oh, wait ... that's what you've been doing all along! 
Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor. |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | Not at all,
We all aspire to achieve(at least I do) either financially, spiritually, or physically. Just because they have achieved, does not make them part of an elite. The arguement from the marginalized right has always been that the liberal, left-wing elite is nothing more than silver-spoon fed, latte-drinking, rich, spoiled brats. These three, and there are many many more, prove that to be a falsehood.
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Admin note:
Please do not post messages relating to the administration of this forum.
If you have a complaint/comment/suggestion, please direct them to either the Administrator or a moderator via PM or E-mail.
Thank you |
| Quote: | Elitism is a belief or attitude that an elite (a small body of persons whose abilities or attributes place them at the top of any field) are the only people whose views on a matter are to be taken seriously, or who are fit to govern a group. Under elitism these people are seen by themselves as occupying a special position of authority or privilege in a group, as opposed to the majority of people who do not match up with their abilities or attributes.
The abilities or attributes of a person that can be considered elite vary. They include, but are not limited to:
High level of academic qualifications
High level of experience in a given field
High intelligence
High natural abilities such as athletic abilities
High creativity
Good taste
Large amount of personal wealth
Elitism takes many forms, some of which are positive and some negative.
Positive forms of elitism are formed in situations in which members of a community with special abilities or special qualifications are afforded greater respect in honour of their abilities or qualifications. Their position in the top of their field is used in order to benefit everybody.
Negative forms of elitism are formed when a group of people with high abilities or attributes conspire to give themselves extra privilege at the expense of all other people. This form of elitism may be described as discrimination. |
The problem is that elitism is a BELIEF in personal superiority. Look at your own posts. The most common trait of an elitist is belief in the natural authority to snidely "marginalize" others and their views. The left in this country has the insane belief that "their" system of government is superior, even faced with abject failure of the system every time it's been tried at a national level.
So ROTC dad, you'd better recognize in your own words your delusion of superiority, thus elitism.
I'm tired of yours. YOU ARE ONE STRIKE FROM A PERMANENT BAN!
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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Why is only horrid to be born into wealth and attend Ivy League Colleges if you are a Republican? Kerry came from wealth, attended Yale and is currently the wealthiest candidate running. If he wins(God forbid), he will be he second wealthiest ever, only after Kennedy.
Why complain about massive wealth of a Republican, but give Kerry a pass, when he is wealthier? |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: | Why is only horrid to be born into wealth and attend Ivy League Colleges if you are a Republican? Kerry came from wealth, attended Yale and is currently the wealthiest candidate running. If he wins(God forbid), he will be he second wealthiest ever, only after Kennedy.
Why complain about massive wealth of a Republican, but give Kerry a pass, when he is wealthier? |
Lew,
Save your breath on ROTC DAD. We banned him!
_________________
On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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nakona
Lieutenant
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:01 am Post subject: |
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| ROTC DAD wrote: | | The left-wing liberal elite? Now who would that be: Michael Moore whose father was a United Auto worker. How 'bout Barbara Ehrenreich, who comes from a working-class background. Or maybe Martin Sheen, whose parents were immigrants and worked their way into the middle class? |
So their parents aren't part of the liberal elite. So what? What's that got to do with anything?
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blackfrancis
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 8:22 am Post subject: |
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| MikeWinn wrote: | BlackFrancis said:
| Quote: | More Abu Ghraib Prisoners Released.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C120546%2C00.html
one could wonder if these people were criminals, why they are being released. If they were not, why would it be okay to torture them? I can see no way anyone can defend their actions. |
Guess what, Bubba? Bottom line, THEY WERE RELEASED!! Can you make the same claim for them when they executed their 'criminal' civilian prisoners???
Geeeez, lefties, can't live with 'em, can't shoot 'em. |
the point I was making, "bubba" was that not all iraqis are terrorists. so it's okay to imprison and/or torture one group because another group acts despicably? |
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MikeWinn
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 110
Location: South Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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Blackfrancis said:
| Quote: | | the point I was making, "bubba" was that not all iraqis are terrorists. so it's okay to imprison and/or torture one group because another group acts despicably? |
You are obviously not from anywhere near the southern part of our country, or you would not have taken the typical 'I am offended' tack with 'bubba'. You see, down here in the dumb ole south, we use terms like bubba and bo replacing buddy, pal, etc..
So, first, get over that. Second, are you telling me that we 'tortured' every prisoner?? Many of those prisoners were and still are detained. I seriously doubt that we only 'tortured' the 'innocent'. Thirdly, the 'one group vs another group' concept you vaguely eluded to makes no sense.
The 2 groups are both arab muslims. 100% of every terrorist act in Iraq is carried out by arab muslims. Do you see a connection here Just like in Vietnam, it is incredibly difficult to determine who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. A storekeeper by day serving you tea in Baghdad hides his face and shoots indiscriminantly from the shadows by night. So, who are the bad guys? We made a best effort attempt to gather those that closely resembled the profile of the 'insurgents' (terrorists). We then take the time necessary to extract as much info as possible from all of them, which takes a good bit of time.
You can argue methods all day, but, we do what we have to do to protect the good guys and eliminate the bad guys. Nasty concept, war. Folks like you, blackfrancis would be appalled at some of the really nasty things the good guys have to do to accomplish those goals, not just now, but in every war we have ever fought. It is apparent that you have never spent any time in combat. Otherwise, you wouldn't be hand-wringing over some guy with panties on his head. Hell, thats a dream come true for some!!
Bottom line, let the soldiers do the fighting and the legislators and media stay the hell out of the way.
_________________
LOCK & LOAD!
GunnerMike
Spectre Gunner and 141 FE
Dedicated to Rico. KIA March 14, 1971.
Love ya man. |
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blackfrancis
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 45
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| Posted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 1:06 pm Post subject: |
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| MikeWinn wrote: | Blackfrancis said:
| Quote: | | the point I was making, "bubba" was that not all iraqis are terrorists. so it's okay to imprison and/or torture one group because another group acts despicably? |
You are obviously not from anywhere near the southern part of our country, or you would not have taken the typical 'I am offended' tack with 'bubba'. You see, down here in the dumb ole south, we use terms like bubba and bo replacing buddy, pal, etc..
So, first, get over that. Second, are you telling me that we 'tortured' every prisoner?? Many of those prisoners were and still are detained. I seriously doubt that we only 'tortured' the 'innocent'. Thirdly, the 'one group vs another group' concept you vaguely eluded to makes no sense.
The 2 groups are both arab muslims. 100% of every terrorist act in Iraq is carried out by arab muslims. Do you see a connection here Just like in Vietnam, it is incredibly difficult to determine who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. A storekeeper by day serving you tea in Baghdad hides his face and shoots indiscriminantly from the shadows by night. So, who are the bad guys? We made a best effort attempt to gather those that closely resembled the profile of the 'insurgents' (terrorists). We then take the time necessary to extract as much info as possible from all of them, which takes a good bit of time.
You can argue methods all day, but, we do what we have to do to protect the good guys and eliminate the bad guys. Nasty concept, war. Folks like you, blackfrancis would be appalled at some of the really nasty things the good guys have to do to accomplish those goals, not just now, but in every war we have ever fought. It is apparent that you have never spent any time in combat. Otherwise, you wouldn't be hand-wringing over some guy with panties on his head. Hell, thats a dream come true for some!!
Bottom line, let the soldiers do the fighting and the legislators and media stay the hell out of the way. |
oh. it was just panties on some guy's head...
| Quote: | | "Between October and December 2003, at the Abu Ghraib Confinement Facility (BCCF), numerous incidents of sadistic, blatant, and wanton criminal abuses were inflicted on several detainees. This systemic and illegal abuse of detainees was intentionally perpetrated by several members of the military police guard force. … The allegations of abuse were substantiated by detailed witness statements (ANNEX 26) and the discovery of extremely graphic photographic evidence. |
… I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:
| Quote: | a. Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c. Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. Forcing naked male detainees to wear women's underwear;
f. Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
h. Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and ***** to simulate electric torture; …
j. Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee's neck and having a female soldier pose for a picture;
k. A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l. Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee … |
These findings are amply supported by written confessions provided by several of the suspects, written statements provided by detainees, and witness statements. …
In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):
| Quote: | a. Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
e. Threatening male detainees with rape; …
g. Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick." |
—Executive summary of Taguba report, finalized Feb. 29, 2004, briefed to superiors on March 3, 2004, and submitted in final form on March 9, 2004
http://slate.msn.com/id/2100014/
sounds like a dream come true. |
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