SwiftVets.com

[xleatherneck]

The following is a summation from a poster that I've been debating with concerning John Kerry and war crimes/atrocities. Prior to this, he had just expressed his belief that at least one out of a hundred Vets had either participated in or witnessed war crimes/atrocities in Viet Nam... a number he apperently plucked out of thin air.

I'm disgusted and thought I'd come here and vent

[LewWaters]

The point they all miss is that Kerry said, "These were not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

If this were true, then why did there exist the Long Binh Jail? And, why was it filled?
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Clark County Conservative

[d19thdoc]

Try giving him this. You can cut and paste it, without attribution - in fact, I don't want to hear from him again.

“I did indeed pluck the numbers out of thin air. I just figured 1% was a safe bet.”

If you need to be told that this is intellectual dishonesty at its best, then this discussion is over, since there is only one honest participant, and it is not you.

”As far as bringing credible evidence, that is your task.”

No, it is everyone’s task. See my response just above. As Anne Coulter so rightly observes, liberals have two different sets of rules – one for themselves and one for everyone whom they oppose. Makes the playing field lopsided and the winner predetermined. How convenient for you.

“The only worthwhile reason for participating in a conversation in a forum like this is to challenge your own assumptions, increase your own knowledge, and provide an incentive to expand your own horizons.”

The only reason you could say something like this is if you are a self-centered, selfish narcissist. The world is not about you and is not here for your exclusive personal benefit and amusement.

”Finding evidence that a lot of atrocities happened in Vietnam is pretty trivial. Finding evidence that very few who committed them were punished is not difficult. The stuff is there.”

“A lot” and “very few” no doubt have the same scientific validity as your 1% rule above. So see the above response.

Two and a half million American servicemen served on the ground in the Vietnam War. The National Archives has CID files which reveal that about 250 of that 2.5 million were investigated for war crimes violations. Many of that number were found guilty and punished. If Kerry was correct in his charges about “. . . on a daily basis . . . ” and “. . . with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command . . . ” this number would be close to zero. Unsubstantiated, un-corroborated first person “testimony” such as that produced (or is “coerced” a better term, as witness Steve Pitkin has now said in a sworn affidavit?) at the Winter Soldier Investigation, and in many bar rooms and Internet sites across America, is evidence of nothing.

A city like Philadelphia has about the same number of individuals in its metropolitan area. Considering the number of violent crimes committed there weekly, and that many of the perpetrators go unprosecuted and unpunished, is it not difficult to conclude that everyone in Philadelphia is a criminal and that the authorities typically look the other way at criminal behavior. That’s what Kerry concluded about Vietnam, and that’s what he concluded about Vietnam servicemen. Impeccable reasoning.

Over 200,000 French civilians were killed in the fighting in Normandy in the weeks following D-Day in 1944. Is this not a cause for righteous indignation? And if it is not, perhaps the political views of those in this country who prosecuted and supported that war might have something to do with the moral judgments they level, or do not level, at the participants in that outcome.

“John Kerry and the anti-war protesters were guilty of hyperbolic rhetoric, and inflammatory posturing. . .”

“Hyperbolic rhetoric” is a self-serving and pretentious euphemism for “lies.” Thank you for the honest concession on point. “Inflammatory posturing” is likewise, meaning “fake incitement.” Thank you again.

“. . . but the basic truth that an awful lot of non-comattants were killed, and killed deliberately, is easy to verify. Likewise with the other charges that the young John Kerry made.

So provide the proof and a number for “an awful lot” since it is so easy to verify – and the proof that all were “non-combatants.” I saw quite a few non-combatants killed in Vietnam, by the way. Every one of them was killed by the VC or the NVA. So how they were killed and by whom is also in play here. Of course, you have an opinion about that too, but no evidence (it’s my job to provide that, right?).

And isn’t it strange that with all this cruel treatment at our hands, when Saigon fell to the benevolent communists, hundreds of thousands of Vietnamese took their lives in their hands to get out on anything that would float, and tens of thousands lost their lives in the effort, hoping to get to America. I guess maybe they were suffering from something like mass-collective "battered wife syndrome," and just couldn't wait to get more punishment from us.

”So, now you have a choice. You can persist in your beliefs, or you can challenge them. It doesn't matter all that much. The war ended thirty years ago. Although it obviously continues to influence us, and some people including me think that a critical examination of that war might change the way we approach our current war, but even that is of little consequence. The truth is that my opinion, or yours, is not by itself going to change the course of events in Iraq.”


What is going to change the course of events in Iraq is winning. And that imperative effort is going to be compromised by those, like you, who would seek to undermine public opinion here at home on any pretext, however dishonest, unsubstantiated or subversive, just as Kerry did in the early 70’s over Vietnam.

If you think this is just an exercise in mental masturbation for your own benefit, then you may not think you are wasting your time here, but you are. Unless your own personal gratification is your only criterion of value.

”So, if you decide to seek evidence, good luck. And if you are comfortable with your current beliefs, and have no need to seek evidence, that's fine, too. And either way, I'm sure that I and/or the others who participate here can help you find the evidence if you are having difficulty.”

That’s interesting indeed, since you have provided no evidence at all for your positions. I guess it is “easy to find” but hard to remember, and maybe impossible to document. Or is it just too bothersome for someone whose lazy insouciance about everything interferes with actually doing any intellectual work.
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For The Honor of the Fifty-Eight Thousand.
"He Can Lose, But He Can Not Hide"

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

DAYUMMMMMM, d19thdoc - I'm sure glad you're on OUR side!!!

Thank you!

Just when I start feeling discouraged about ever knocking down the lies from the left, along comes a post like this to restore my faith in the truth and in the willingness of many other minds and hearts to take it on.

The participants on this board are absolutely TOPS!



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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother