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Zac's Mom
Ensign
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 53
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:24 am Post subject: Soldiers being spit on is just an urban myth? |
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"When Viet-vets came home (Soldiers being spit on is just an urban myth)"
| Quote: | WINSTON-SALEM -- Last week voters went to the polls to select a vision for the future. Now Americans must find a way forward together. This week, as we honor service and sacrifice on Veterans Day, an image from this political season must be put to rest.
The presidential campaign featured the resurgence of a myth from the early 1990s. That myth is that soldiers returning from Vietnam were spit upon by citizens or war protesters. That claim has been used to turn honest differences of opinion about the war into toxic indictments.
As a scholar of urban legends I am usually involved with accounts of vanishing hitchhikers and involuntary kidney donors. These stories are folklore that harmlessly reveals the public imagination. However, accounts of citizens spitting on returning soldiers -- any nation's soldiers -- are not harmless stories. These tales evoke an emotional firestorm.
I have studied urban legends for nearly 20 years and have been certified as an expert on the subject in the federal courts. Nonetheless, it dawned on me only recently that the spitting story was a rumor that has grown into an urban legend. I never wanted to believe the story but I was afraid to investigate it for fear that it could be true.
Why could I not identify this fiction sooner? The power of the story and the passion of its advocates offer a powerful alchemy of guilt and fear -- emotions not associated with clearheadedness.
Labeling the spitting story an urban legend does not mean that something of this sort did not happen to someone somewhere. You cannot prove the negative -- that something never happened. However, most accounts of spitting emerged in the mid-1980s only after a newspaper columnist asked his readers who were Vietnam vets if they had been spit upon after the war (an odd and leading question to ask a decade after the war's end). The framing of the question seemed to beg for an affirmative answer.
• • •
In 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers. There were no instances of spitting on soldiers; what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters.
Opinion polls of the time show no animosity between soldiers and opponents of the war. Only 3 percent of returning soldiers recounted any unfriendly experiences upon their return.
So records from that era offer no support for the spitting stories. Lembcke's research does show that similar spitting rumors arose in Germany after World War I and in France after its Indochina war. One of the persistent markers of urban legends is the re-emergence of certain themes across time and space.
There is also a common-sense method for debunking this urban legend. One frequent test is the story's plausibility: how likely is it that the incident could have happened as described? Do we really believe that a "dirty hippie" would spit upon a fit and trained soldier? If such a confrontation had occurred, would that combat-hardened soldier have just ignored the insult? Would there not be pictures, arrest reports, a trial record or a coroner's report after such an event? Years of research have produced no such records.
Lembcke underscores the enduring significance of the spitting story for this Veterans Day. He observes that as a society we are what we remember. The meaning of Vietnam and any other war is not static but is created through the stories we tell one another. To reinforce the principle that policy disagreements are not personal vendettas we must put this story to rest.
Our first step forward is to recognize that we are not a society that disrespects the sacrifices of our servicemembers. We should ignore anyone who tries to tell us otherwise. Whatever our aspirations for America, those hopes must begin with a clear awareness of who we are not.
(John Llewellyn is an associate professor of communication at Wake Forest University.)
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A reference to this article has been made within a post on Geedunk & Scuttlebutt forum (see: The Vietnamization of Iraq)
But, since it appears as though this fella is trying to re-write history I think this article deserves a thread of it's own in this forum ~
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 4:47 am Post subject: |
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It seems they are hung up on the fact that there were no published articles about being spit on, at that time. It is common knowledge with veterans and with those that were protestors that it did indeed happen.
However, sometimes the spitting was a more symbolic spitting, but not always.
I see this as nothing more than them trying to ease a guilty conscience, just as their baloney statement, "I support the troops, but not the war."
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:04 am Post subject: |
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"One frequent test is the story's plausibility: how likely is it that the incident could have happened as described? Do we really believe that a "dirty hippie" would spit upon a fit and trained soldier?"
I don't seem to recall mobs of hippies having any problem confronting armed national guard with spit, feces, rocks and of course flowers at the Pentagon in '67, Chicago in '68, countless draft boards, ROTC halls and recruitment stations in '69, Kent State in '70 or DC in '71. Why wouldn't a mob of SDS types be any less brave with unarmed stragglers; hell I saw them harrass Boy Scouts as junior Nazis!
Apparently the covers of Life magazine weren't part of his research. Maybe this expert on Urban Myths should stick with sewer croc's and Pop Rocks. |
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LimaCharlie
PO2
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 386
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:53 am Post subject: |
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The only time I got close enough in uniform for the protesters to spit on me was at the Oakland, California Airport in early 1971. There were several television news cameras filming our arrival from Viet Nam. No one spit on me, but there were many terrible things said and chanted that I just ignored. I was changing planes, so I did not go outside away from the cameras. I believe they would have been much worse without the television cameras and evening news reporters present.
I know cops that have been spit on and attacked by protesters and the cops are armed. Why wouldn’t someone believe they would spit on an unarmed military person.
His study was from 1968 to 1971. The widespread demonstrations escalated after John Kerry’s testimony in 1971 and Hanoi Jane’s trip to North Viet Nam in 1972. When I hear some veteran telling about being spit on in the mid-sixties, I tend to discount it. When I hear someone tell me about it happening late in the sixties or in the seventies, I lend it more credence.
I think his urban legend debunk is an attempt to rewrite history. It didn’t happen as often as told, but I believe it happened.
Many people claim to be Viet Nam Veterans when they weren’t, or make unsubstantiated claims about their experiences. You also hear people tell about horrible atrocities they witnessed or participated in while in Viet Nam. Some atrocities did occur, but if two percent of the stories told were real, I would have voted for Kerry instead of Bush.
Just think how many Swift Boat Veterans there will be after this election season. It is an easy way to get a free beer in a bar.
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Snipe
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 574
Location: Peoria, Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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I never got spit on. It wasn't for lack of trying though, we just didn't
find a spitter. We decommissioned Benner in '69 in Bremerton and
got a couple of weekends back in Long Beach. The Navy flew us (full
pop) from SeaTac to LAX with a stopover in SFX. We trolled this
inocent looking sailor in front of us trying to find someone to do some
thing. At this stage of the game, there were rumors of hippies in the
airports. Nothing happened.
In early '71, I had an emergency leave as my ship deployed and was
to meet up with it in Subic. So I went from LAX to SFX. I got
propositioned in LAX, but no hippies. Nice to know that SOMEONE
liked me for my body. Anyhow, the hippies pretty much stayed on
their college campi as there wasn't anything around the gates of Long
Beach Naval Station or Shipyard. San Diego either. Of course, Snipes
being as wild eyed and confrontational as the hippies were supposed to
be, maybe they made a quick mental check of their health insurance
and decided that they weren't covered. At any rate, WE never found
the spitter. I always felt kinda cheated.
Funny thing is, that on my high school board, we have a lot of folks who
went to Berkeley and Stanford back in those days. Everyone talks about
campus rallys, but nobody fesses up to partaking in riots. I can see
where a hippy chick might hock one on someone on the theory that
"They might be baby killers, but they wouldn't hit a GIRL!" Maybe so,
but her boyfriend is toast.
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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They are still doing it. My Navy son had some hippie from the 60s type flip him the middle finger this past May.
CWV
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Anker-Klanker
Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Richardson, TX
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:17 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | In 1998 sociologist and Vietnam veteran Jerry Lembcke published "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." He recounts a study of 495 news stories on returning veterans published from 1965 to 1971. That study shows only a handful (32) of instances were presented as in any way antagonistic to the soldiers. There were no instances of spitting on soldiers; what spitting was reported was done by citizens expressing displeasure with protesters. |
I won't get into how many spitting incidents there were. Certainly it did not happen to everybody, and I suspect that there were less incidents than most people choose to remember, but they did happen.
Instead I'd like to comment on Mr. Lembcke's methodology. 1965 to 1971 is probably the wrong range to investigate. A more appropriate range to investigate, I'd guess, is 1969-ca. 1975.
What he said he researched was "news stories." I'd suggest to the author, if I could comment to him, is that then, as now, the "news" was as much a part of the problem as it is today. First of all such an incident was not big news and unlikely to be reported even by a fair-and-balanced reporter, and incidents such as this would not seen by the generally anti-war, biased news reporters as being sympathetic to their anti-war views. So, I ask, why would anyone neutrally conducting such an investigation, expect to find "news stories" about such incidents?
As an alternative investigation, I'd suggest the author investigate the urban myth that "news reporting" is comprehensive, fair, and neutral, and necessarily reflects the norm of human behavior and views. |
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:39 pm Post subject: |
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That is the most up surd thing I have read all week. I have a little legal experience where 'legal' experts are required as witnesses to offer a opinion.
| Quote: | | I have studied urban legends for nearly 20 years and have been certified as an expert on the subject in the federal courts. |
There are zero requirements for certifying someone as a expert at anything at all. All that is required is for both sides to agree the person is a 'expert'. I've sat in a courtroom for two days straight while lawyers debated who was qualified to say whether a house had been painted or not. This with photographs of the house in hand!
certified as an expert on the subject in the federal courts
Come off it!! What kind of legal, federal legal battle requires a expert on
Urban Myths, certified or not. This is total fiction.
Yes soldiers were spit on regularly. No all soldiers were not spit on. Yes some veterans did vote for Kerry..... about the same percentage as were unaware of the aforementioned 'urban Legend'
Ahhh, Schlock Academia, a future columnist for Salon dot com maybe. |
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Jerald L. Parsoneault
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 144
Location: Sacramento
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:45 pm Post subject: |
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Anker Klanker wrote. . . .
| Quote: | I won't get into how many spitting incidents there were. Certainly it did not happen to everybody, and I suspect that there were less incidents than most people choose to remember, but they did happen.
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It didn't get spit on, but it's because like many others returning from duty in Vietnam, I changed out of my uniform in the men's room at the San Francisco Airport.
It didn't happen to two Marine 2nd Lieutenant friends in transit to Vietnam because I picked them up at an Airforce Base and took them to my parents house where they spent their last evening in the States sharing a half gallon of rum with my 60 year old Dad and Mom rather than go out on the town in uniform and cause trouble.
Both Marines came home a year later with well deserved Silver Stars (eat your heart out John Kerry) and my mother still remembers not being able to get out of bed for 3 days after trying match these guys drink for drink on the night before they shipped out.
Nalt
Naval Advisory Group and COMNAVFORV |
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GIaunt
Seaman
Joined: 08 Oct 2004
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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When looking into urban legends I recommend:
SNOPES.COM
If you enter "Viet Name spit" you will not find this story listed as an urban legend
Also, "spat upon" does not have to be literally interpretted as saliva out of the mouth.... It is a generalization for being called names, flipped off, etc. |
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neverforget
Vice Admiral
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 875
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| Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:59 pm Post subject: |
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Once again, another leftist thinks so literally he becomes illiterate about the subject he professes to know so much.
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Anker-Klanker
Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Richardson, TX
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Really interesting. I did a search on Google on the title of that book(?) mentioned in the article: "The Spitting Image: Myth, Media and the Legacy of Viet Nam." The only hit I got was the article itself, which should you want to see the source and try to contact the author is at:
http://www.newsobserver.com/opinion/story/1815713p-8122285c.html
The author of the above article is an associate professor of communciations at Wake Forest University. He is referred to in a Tampa - St. Petersburg newspaper article of this year describing rumors of many more deaths than there actually were from Hurricane Ivan:
| Quote: | | Post-disaster rumors often spread because the stories seem plausible, said John Llewellyn, a communications professor at Wake Forest University in Winston-Salem, N.C., who teaches a class on rumor and urban legend. In other words, when people see hurricane devastation all around them, it's not a stretch to believe that hundreds of people were killed in horrible ways. |
http://www.tampabaylive.com/stories/2004/09/040924rumors.shtml
I didn't quit there so I searched on the name of the author of the book cited in the article and hit the jack pot:
He can be found at:
http://www.holycross.edu/departments/socant/website/lembcke.htm
You can buy the book for $20 at Amazon.com:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0814751474/002-5023107-5398434?v=glance
But before you go further I'll quote a few lines from the book review:
| Quote: | | Images of long-haired antiwar protesters, almost always women, spitting on returning Vietnam veterans have become a shameful part of America's collective memory. Lembcke (sociology, Holy Cross Univ.), a member of Vietnam Veterans Against the War, here presents a stunning indictment of this myth?an illusion created, he maintains, by the Nixon-Agnew administration and an unwitting press to attribute America's loss in Vietnam to internal dissension. In fact, the antiwar movement and many veterans were closely aligned, and the only documented incidents show members of the VFW and American Legion spitting on their less successful Vietnam peers. But Lembcke's most controversial conclusion is that posttraumatic stress disorder was as much a political creation?a means of discrediting returning vets who protested the war as unhinged?as it was a medical condition. The image of the psycho-vet was furthered through such Hollywood productions as The Deer Hunter and Coming Home. This forceful investigation challenges the reader to reexamine assumptions about the dark side of American culture that glorifies war more than peace. |
There's more if you care to read it. I think I get the picture: an associate professor in NC who has an interest in urban legends cites as his authority a book written by a member of the VVAW, whose other writing credits include (very informative):
| Quote: | "Job Creation: A Socialist Strategy for the Public Sector," with Jerry Lembcke, Humanity & Society, Vol 10, No 1 (1986).
"Reindustrialization Revisited: A Response to Burris," with Jerry Lembcke, Insurgent Sociologist, Vol 13, Nos 1-2 (Summer-Fall 1985).
"Reindustrialization and the Logic of Class Politics in Late Twentieth Century America," with Jerry Lembcke, Insurgent Sociologist, Vol 13, Nos 1-2 (Summer-Fall 1985). |
Amazing! Here we have firm connections between academia, anti-war activism (then and now), and socialism. They're back (or they never went away).
Last edited by Anker-Klanker on Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:27 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Uisguex Jack
Rear Admiral
Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 613
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 12:48 am Post subject: |
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This evening on Washington D.C.'s USA Channel 9--- local CBS affiliate had a special on about a new exhibit opening this Veterans day.
http://www.wusatv9.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=34753
On the 7:00 P.M. broadcast, reviewing the days events after the opening. One of the attendees stated that this was a much better experience than his having been 'spit on' in his uniform in Chicago after he returned from Vietnam.
If you have high speed hook up check out the video links, it is a pretty good exhibit.
Meanwhile Chris Mathews is celebrating the 'Gloom and Doom' repeat of Vietnam in Iraq, Veterans day special. That is no fun at all. |
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1991932
Lance Corporal
Joined: 02 Oct 2004
Posts: 381
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 3:25 am Post subject: anybody remember Carol? |
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I landed at SFO in 1966, after a tour in Viet Nam. No protesters or spitters. Still in uniform, I was waved into the Condor Club, no charge, to see Carol Doda. Truly amazing show.
The thing I remember most about war protesters occurred several years later, while I was attending the University of Massachusetts in downtown Boston. Everybody was continually up in arms, so to speak, about the Viet Nam war. We actually had the rest of the Spring semester cancelled after Kent State. But then when they held the first draft lottery, all of a sudden the wailing stopped. All the guys in class cared about was how high their number was. It was the coming of age of the "Me First" era.
It really was better in the good old days, IMHO.
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reconflyer
Seaman
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 168
Location: West Texas USA
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| Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 4:45 am Post subject: |
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I was in Albertson's Grocery store Wednesday afternoon, in uniform, when this civilian lady approached me...
She said, "I just wanted to thank you for serving and protecting us."
I said, "You are welcome, and thanks for thinking of us..."
When I was a young airman, stationed in Key West, Fl, I was walking with a Staff Sergeant, both of us in uniform, when a gnarly looking guy yelled at us, "Get out of Honduras"...
My friend, the SSgt, laughed, and replied, "OK, we'll get right on that".
People do three things when they see a GI, they embrace them, they are indifferent, or they rebuke them.
Trust me, I'm sure that the spitting happened. I'm positive it did.
reconflyer
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