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Anker-Klanker
Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Richardson, TX
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 Posted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 10:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Alinsky is useful for us as well. The rules can be applied both ways.
And one of the better ones is:
Kill them with their own rules. |
Not to be trite, but what rules do they have? I keep getting the feeling that we're out on the court trying to play basketball, while the other team is playing football/hockey/rugby. And that really is a part of the problem in all seriousness. |
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JimRobson
Lieutenant
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 242
Location: Jacksonville FL
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:43 am Post subject: |
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| Anker-Klanker wrote: | | Quote: | | Alinsky is useful for us as well. The rules can be applied both ways. And one of the better ones is: Kill them with their own rules. |
Not to be trite, but what rules do they have? I keep getting the feeling that we're out on the court trying to play basketball, while the other team is playing football/hockey/rugby. And that really is a part of the problem in all seriousness. |
What rules do they have. Who are they, what do they want? I think we're finding this out. We can keep playing basketball, I suppose -- maybe work to make it more popular. Or, perhaps learn their games and outplay them? Expose them. Press our agenda -- truth, integrity, loyalty, love of America, etc. -- Give them some competition for the hearts and minds not only of the world, but also of America itself?
I pulled up one group to look at "Int'l. A.N.S.W.E.R." which is a coalition of groups - a "hydra" one could say (Hydra: a many-headed serpent or monster in Greek mythology that was slain by Hercules and each head of which when cut off was replaced by two others; not capitalized: a multifarious evil not to be overcome by a single effort):
(emphasis, mine)
Info on A.N.S.W.E.R.:
| Quote: | “International ANSWER's ANSWER Coalition of anti-war activists (ANSWER stands for Act Now to Stop War and End Racism) features on its website openly Communist members, ... In fact, said Herb Romerstein, "International ANSWER is the Worker's World Party." WWP describes itself as a group of "independent Marxists" but supports the policies of Communist North Korean dictator Kim Jong Il. International ANSWER also includes more domesticated Marxists such as Howard Zinn. The national Muslim Student Association, whose chapters often host radical Islamic speakers on campuses, is on International ANSWER's steering committee.”
“Leftist Radicals Plot GOP Convention Disruptions” (8/30/04): * humaneventsonline * |
Internet Tracking of Int’l ANSWER, Ramsey Clark (atty for kerry's VVAW in 70s), associations, etc:
| Quote: | “...Is this a means for the Workers World Party to develop an anarchistic atmosphere in the United States? Divide the population & jump into the gap to gain political control? The International Action Center is not a one-pony show. ... I believe they are acting to disable & destruct society’s institutions in order to forward an agenda. The oath of enlistment of a soldier in the US Army begins, "I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC;..." Dissent is one thing, & is a Constitutional right, but we must not forget that there can be domestic enemies.
“Tracking Down a Fifth Column Front” (9/18/02): * FrontPageMag * |
From an ANSWER website (San Fran.) 11/14/04:
ANSWER Statement 11/5/04 - “The Real Divide in the U.S.” ALL OUT FOR Jan. 20 Counter-Inaugural; and March 19/20 Global Day of Protest on 2nd Anniversay of the War.
| Quote: | ... the Pentagon prepares a murderous reign of terror ... Just as in the Vietnam War, millions of people can turn actively against the war—and can even become its most militant opponents—once they come to understand that they have been lied to by the government. ... For people to learn the truth and accept the fact that the government that they pledged allegiance to is really a bunch of lying criminals takes a process. .... ...both the Democrats & Republicans are imperialist parties.. ..The Bush plan for Iraq & the Middle East is politically premised on imperial arrogance & driven by the desire for Empire... The antiwar movement must merge the struggle for peace with a militant fightback movement at home ... The antiwar movement must be part & parcel of the workers' movement to defend our unions & to launch a broader struggle ... The antiwar movement must unite with the anti-racist movement ... The unrelenting assault on the Muslim and Arab American community ....
The past three years have been an awakening for many people in the U.S., a realization of the role & aggression of the U.S. in world affairs ... During this period of great drive & excitement, there was a growing hope that the global antiwar movement could bring about monumental change, ... This global movement is strengthened .. from people standing side by side and engaging in collective action around positions of principle. This is the true democracy, and the only source for hope for our collective future. The A.N.S.W.E.R. coalition calls on all people who believe in justice to double our commitment to building the struggle against war & empire abroad, & for justice at home. *ANSWER-actionsf.org * |
International ANSWER website - Excerpts from “About Us”:
| Quote: | Steering Committee:
IFCO/Pastors for Peace
Free Palestine Alliance - U.S.
Haiti Support Network
Partnership for Civil Justice - LDEF
Nicaragua Network
Alliance for Just and Lasting Peace in the Phillippines
Korea Truth Commission
International Action Center
Muslim Student Association - National
Kensington Welfare Rights Union
Mexico Solidarity Network
Middle East Children's Alliance
... “after September 11... (ANSWER coalition) initiated a strategy & mass mobilizations to counter the Bush Administration’s endless war drive, its so called war on "terrorism." ... A central characteristic of the A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition’s organizing strategy has been to work in partnership with the Arab American & Muslim community. ... The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition organized mass mobilizations on 4/20/02 for a free Palestine & against a threatened war in Iraq. .... This demonstration was historic for two reasons: (1) it broke the existing taboo in the U. S. among the traditional peace movement against open solidarity with the Palestinian people’s struggle; & (2) because it revealed that the U.S. anti-war movement, or at least a section of it, could successfully organize with tens of thousands of Arab-American, Muslim and South Asian people to form a united front....
... In 6/02, A.N.S.W.E.R. organized a demonstration at the FBI & Justice Department buildings opposing the USA Patriot Act... 10/26/02: A.N.S.W.E.R. organized the first major nat’l. demonstration in opposition to the war drive against Iraq. ... we gathered at the Vietnam Veterans War Memorial & encircled the White House. ... May 17-18, 2003: The A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition held its second nat’l. conference in NYC attended by over 850 organizers & activists from across the country. The conference developed the A.N.S.W.E.R. action plan for the coming year.
* internationalanswer.org * |
Do "we" have a counter-group able to take these people on with their plans for DC Anti-Inaugural protest on 1/20/05? Their coalition will gather thousands. You can see their usual signs at their website: “Stand Against Racism” -- “Money For Jobs Not For War” -- “End the Occupation of Iraq, Bring the Troops Home" etc.
Maybe some other group with signs could cause them some concern: -- “Support Our Troops and Peace For Iraq” - “The War is Over -- America has liberated Iraq” -- “Occupation has Ended--Iraq Invites US Help” -- “All Volunteer Military: Support Our Troops!!” -- "Renew the Patriot Act" ...
Or, how about being blunt: "Americans Against Domestic Anarchists" -- “Americans Against A.N.S.W.E.R.” !!
Last edited by Beatrice1000 on Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:29 am; edited 4 times in total |
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 2:56 am Post subject: Re: The full cultural legacy of Kerry and his VVAW |
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| fortdixlover wrote: | Veterans have focused on Kerry's stealing of their honor and reputations as defenders of America and of liberty.
Would it be unreasonable to suggest a much more widepread, damaging legacy of Kerry's 1970's propaganda and hissy fits in front of the U.S. Congress and media regarding his VVAW activities?
I submit that John Kerry played a major role in the severe damage inflicted upon our culture in the 1970's. He aided and abetted the respectability of utter contempt for authority, respectability of contempt for cultural norms of past centuries that predated the U.S., and respectability of "dictator worship" and "communism worship" by our youth. The effect became pervasive, and is promulgated in our schools and universities even today.
The cornucopia of benefits besides Stolen Honor? How about breakdown of the family, increased drug abuse and addiction, AIDS, and other social ills due to habits that became 'fashionable'?
Could Kerry could be rightly described as a person who promoted not just "Stolen Honor" but far worse, a Stolen Culture?
I think vets sense this, and that is why they despise him far more than their stolen reputations might account for.
-- FDL |
WOW fortdixlover you nailed it. You pretty much summed up my sentiments. We were totally demoralized 1975-1979 during the time of my service and it wasn’t until the SBVT shined the light of truth upon Kerry did everything fall into place for me. The only thing I would add to your statement is the role Hollywood played in perpetuating the Kerry lie. This whole experience has been very healthy for me and for the first time in my life I have been able to feel some pride about my service.
CWV
_________________
Defender of the honor of those in harms way keeping us out of harms way.
"Peace is our Profession"
Strategic Air Command - Motto
USAF 75-79 Security Police |
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Anker-Klanker
Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Richardson, TX
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:01 pm Post subject: |
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It is very timely that today (Monday, 11/15) this appeared on PowerLine.com:
| Quote: | In an interesting symposium at Frontpage, former Romanian Communist intelligence officer Ion Mihai Pacepa explains:
History always repeats itself, and if you can live two lives, you have an even greater chance of seeing that repetition with your own eyes. During the last six years of my other life, as a Romanian intelligence general, the main task of the Soviet bloc espionage community was to transform Yasser Arafat’s war against Israel and its main supporter, the United States, into an armed doctrine of the whole Islamic world. America was our main enemy, and a billion adversaries could inflict far greater damage on it than could a mere one million. Islamic anti-Semitism ran deep. Our task was to convert its historical hatred of the Jews into a new hatred of the United States, by portraying this land of freedom as an “imperial Zionist country” financed by Jewish money and run by a rapacious “Council of the Elders of Zion,” the Kremlin’s epithet for the US Congress.
According to KGB theorists, the Islamic world was a petri dish in which we could nurture a virulent strain of America-hate. Islamic cultures had a taste for nationalism, jingoism and victimology. Their illiterate, oppressed mobs could be whipped up to a fever pitch. Terrorism and violence against America would flow naturally from their religious fervor. We had only to keep repeating, over and over, that the United States was a “Zionist country” bankrolled by rich Jews. Islam was obsessed with preventing the infidel’s occupation of its territory, and it would be highly receptive to our dogma that American imperialism wanted to transform the rest of the world into a Jewish fiefdom.
Before I left Romania for good, in 1978, the Soviet bloc intelligence community flooded the Islamic world with Arabic translations of an old Russian, forged, anti-Semitic tract entitled Protocols of the Elders of Zion, along with “documentary” materials, also in Arabic, “proving” that the United States was a Zionist country governed by Jewish money, whose aim was to extend its domination over the rest of the world. We also infiltrated the Islamic world with thousands of Soviet bloc Islamic citizens recruited as intelligence agents and tasked to implant there a rabid, demented hatred for American Zionism. They were to portray everybody and everything in America as being subordinated to Jewish interests: the leaders, the government, the political parties, the most prominent personalities—and even American history. Most of these agents were religious servants, engineers, medical doctors or teachers, and they had excellent credibility.
Although we now live in an age of technology, we still do not have an instrument that can scientifically measure the results of a sustained influence operation. Nevertheless, it is safe to presume that over the course of the further twenty-plus years—until the Soviet Union buckled—the combination between spreading hundreds of thousands of Protocols within the Islamic world and portraying the United States there as a criminal Zionist instrument should have left some trace. The hijacked airplane was launched into the world of contemporary terrorism by the KGB and its puppet Yasser Arafat, and it is significant that this became the weapon of choice for September 11, 2001. |
The full article is at: http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15952
I'm now picking up on another interesting and frightening trend. Over on the far-RIGHT of the political spectrum are extremist groups who advocate white supremacy, and anti-semitisim. It's a long story, but off to the side I've had reason to want to investigate one of these (which I'll leave unnamed for the moment). This group also opposes "big government" and are very anti- big business and corporations. Their anti-semitism drives them into the camp of being Islamist apologizers and supporters, and their extreme anti-government views strangely align them somewhat with Communist/Socialist groups.
We tend to think of the political spectrum as a straight line, with the far-left, naturally, on the left end of the line, and the far-right, naturally, on the right of the line. What is interesting, and confusing, to me in all this is that it might be more appropriate to think of that line as being bent into a circle, in which the far-left and far-right are in adjacent, maybe even overlapping, positions. Maybe one way to think of it is the old "I'll be your friend if we share common enemies."
Moral of the story: don't assume anything; old political "models" might be irrelevant; new alliances and common objectives may be making for some mighty strange bedfellows. |
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hmminCanada
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:45 pm Post subject: |
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Anker-Klanker wrote:
"We tend to think of the political spectrum as a straight line, with the far-left, naturally, on the left end of the line, and the far-right, naturally, on the right of the line. What is interesting, and confusing, to me in all this is that it might be more appropriate to think of that line as being bent into a circle, in which the far-left and far-right are in adjacent, maybe even overlapping, positions. Maybe one way to think of it is the old "I'll be your friend if we share common enemies."
Yesterday as I was out walking I was thinking about some of the stuff I've been reading on this thread and I had just read on the Democratic Socialists of America's site--an article answering questions about was democratic socialism was. Then I started thinking about the word 'fascism' which I think is usually used in opposition to 'communism' but every time I try to figure out what it is, I usually find myself thinking that if this is applied to how you run a country, you seem to end up with much the same thing as in a communist state. So then I thought to myself that maybe when you go so far to the right, you end up bumping into the far left--in other words a circle, just like you said. So it seems, Anker, "great minds think alike!" But I don't think I've ever heard any one else express it like this. It's always presented like the opposite poles of political/social thought. |
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Hammer2
PO2
Joined: 30 Aug 2004
Posts: 387
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:15 pm Post subject: |
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It is deliberate propaganda by the Communist left to portray Nazis and Faschists as on the right wing of the political spectrum.
The reality is that all are ideologies of the far left. They differ in degree not in kind. Nazi & Faschist governments operated much as the People's Republic of China does today, with a mix of Socialism in state run industries, Capitalism in private business, and a great deal of personal freedon to it's citizens but with all political opposition ruthlessly suppressed. Hitler added the element of psuedo-scientific talk about being the master race & exterminating Jews but that is not an intrinsic element of National Socialism.
Communism allows no private ownership of property, all business is state owned, the entire economy is planned and run by government bureaucrats, not only is there no political opposition allowed but even the thoughts of citizens are scrutinized for deviant tendencies.
All forms of Socialism diminish freedom, the only difference is in how much is lost.
The true source of the hatred between Communists and Nazis is that they see each other as rivals for power.
_________________
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilence" - Thomas Jefferson
"An armed society is a polite society" - Thomas Jefferson
"The beauty of the Second Amendment is that it won't be needed until someone tries to take it away." -- Thomas Jefferson |
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Anker-Klanker
Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Richardson, TX
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:06 pm Post subject: |
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To make the point about this seemingly "circular" phenomenon, follow the trail of a weekly rag called American Free Press. You can run a Goggle search on the name and come up with lots and lots of hits that will tell you something about it: decidely far-right-wing, convinced that everything about the government is one big conspiracy, decidely anti-semitic with a propensity to favor any Islamic version of the news, etc., etc.
For a relatively short overview, you can check out:
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=American_Free_Press
Willis Carto is the founder and publisher of American Free Press, and you can read more about him, his activities and organizations here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willis_Carto
OK, now to get you thoroughly confused, the following link is one to an article of an interview by an American Free Press reporter of a columist for Pravda (yes, that Pravda!). This definitely shows that both groups are connected, and even share many of the same objectives. I don't think you will find even a hint of differences in their outlooks and objectives from this interview.
http://english.pravda.ru/usa/2002/01/10/25248.html
Scary, very sick stuff, huh? I admit that I'm pretty confused by all this. |
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:33 pm Post subject: |
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Socialism was the last sylogism of 18th Century 'Reason'. It was argued that equal political voice was untenable without equal economic voice. The American Revolution proclaimed, 'Liberty, Equality and the Pursuit of Happiness' (read 'Money'). The French revolt espoused 'Liberty, Equality and Fraternity'. Fraternity was vaguely interpreted as a share-and-share alike of some universal brotherhood in furtherance of economic equality. It was a disaster and snuffed the Enlightenment.
Both fascism and communism derive from the reactionary, anti-intellectualism of Hegel. He authored a metaphysics of spirit that denied logic, ridiculed reason and despised democracy. Marx derived dialectic materialism, Lenin made of this a Dictatorship of the Proletariate, Mussolini called it pragmatic activism and Hitler fashioned his Fuhrer as the focus of a Volks Geist. None of them thought people capable of self determination.
Regardless of where they fall on the spectrum all these movements subscribe to the same stratagems: poison public discourse with a mockery of reason (spoken loud enough and long enough) and deligitimize democratic institutions through obstruction and confusion.
As for the Democratic National Committee......
Last edited by I B Squidly on Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:46 pm Post subject: |
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| ScottyDog wrote: | Do You want to know Who the enemies are in Congress? I copied the Democratic Socialists of America webpage before they were exposed by WorldnetDaily. They immediately took it down during the Kerry Bush Campaign
This is a list of members Congress that are full fledged members in the USA Communist Party. They are all traitors IMHO:
(list)
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Is this for real? Actual members of the Communist Party USA?
_________________
"Millions For Defense, Not One Cent For Tribute" - Thomas Jefferson on paying ransom to Muslim corsairs (pirates). |
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fortdixlover
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 1476
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:52 pm Post subject: Re: The full cultural legacy of Kerry and his VVAW |
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| coldwarvet wrote: | | This whole experience has been very healthy for me and for the first time in my life I have been able to feel some pride about my service. CWV |
I'm not a vet, but can understand.
As I wrote in the earlier days of the SwiftVets board, it is apparent Kerry and minions carried out one of the largest mindf**ks against the military in history.
Sorry for the language but it's the only term colorful enough.
| Anker-Klanker wrote: | | I'm now picking up on another interesting and frightening trend. Over on the far-RIGHT of the political spectrum are extremist groups who advocate white supremacy, and anti-semitisim. It's a long story, but off to the side I've had reason to want to investigate one of these (which I'll leave unnamed for the moment) ... We tend to think of the political spectrum as a straight line, with the far-left, naturally, on the left end of the line, and the far-right, naturally, on the right of the line. |
I've seen a number of writers talk about the mix of beliefs in government power vs. individual power as the true political schema.
As I recall these "non directional" schemas,
High goverment power with low personal power is the major characteristic of what are now termed the far right and far left, or fascism and communism.
Medium in each category would be centrist.
Low government power and high personal power correspond to conservative or libertarian (or, I guess, anarchist at the extreme) views.
-- FDL
Last edited by fortdixlover on Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:07 am; edited 1 time in total |
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JimRobson
Lieutenant
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 242
Location: Jacksonville FL
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:34 am Post subject: |
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I don't know what to think about that list. I tend to be suspicious of any net that can catch all those fish. For example, I'm a volunteer at an AIDS Hospice operated by Catholic Charities. Communist?? Doubtful.
The mere size of this list threatens it's credibility.
_________________
ETN2 PTF2 (Littlecreek Underwater Demolition Unit 2 1963)
 
http://www.thewebplace.com/ |
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Beatrice1000
Resource Specialist
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1179
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:40 am Post subject: |
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| JimRobson wrote: | | I don't know what to think about that list. I tend to be suspicious of any net that can catch all those fish. For example, I'm a volunteer at an AIDS Hospice operated by Catholic Charities. Communist?? Doubtful. The mere size of this list threatens it's credibility. |
Good point. Should have credible linked resource(s)? |
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hmminCanada
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 28 Aug 2004
Posts: 43
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Thank you Hammer2, I B Squidly, and fortdiodover for your added information. That is very helpful to clear up some of my confusion on this topic. And now we have to throw islamofascism into the mix. Ooooow!
I don't know how my brain is going to stand all of this! |
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CTW
Rear Admiral
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 691
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:13 am Post subject: |
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This is a terrific thread. I have been busy the past week with a new office and look what I have missed! Glad to see people really getting to the BIG PICTURE. I will take time to read the links I haven't before.
Re: David Horowitz and the "IT" he referenced (several pages back) not coming to America, the "it" was the "bloodbath" seen in other countries noted that we pulled out of, etc. not the coming to America of the communist party. Just in case anybody was still troubled by the reference in David's comments.
And the effect on the American culture, by all involved, during the 60s and 70s was their primary objective. So we all read on and thank those who have put up some excellent links. Educating ourselves of the historical events serves to strengthen our resolve.
While Kerry is a personal objective for many, we must make the case to all we can that he is just one of the characters and others still are in our government. Kerry is not the only one that wll take our country in directions that are extreme left.
As for the list have we vetted that to know the facts?
We must take time and effort to make certain all info we share to friends is true or substantiated. False news can be very detrimental to our credibility. CTW
Never Ever Kerry |
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