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buzzards27
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
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 Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:01 pm Post subject: Kerry and his baby killer claims. |
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| I was wondering if someone could point to the link where kerry is quoted using the words "baby killer" I know about the VVAW and the Wintersoldier thing in detroit and his congressional 'visit'. Where in all of that stuff did kerry use those words? |
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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Please reference the baby killer charge. Who, when..
If there is a charge out their find that person and challenge it their.
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coldwarvet
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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If you want to post here you best support your charges before you make them.
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buzzards27
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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i'm looking for the atribution to kerry. i find third hand references to it all over. even from the nixon tapes
"Where did he serve?" Nixon asked.
"He was a Navy lieutenant, j.g., on a gunboat, and he used to run his gunboat up and shoot at, shoot babies out of women's arms," Haldeman said.
"Oh, stop that," Nixon said. "People in the Navy don't do things [like that.]" |
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:51 pm Post subject: |
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| buzzards27 wrote: | i'm looking for the atribution to kerry. i find third hand references to it all over. even from the nixon tapes
"Where did he serve?" Nixon asked.
"He was a Navy lieutenant, j.g., on a gunboat, and he used to run his gunboat up and shoot at, shoot babies out of women's arms," Haldeman said.
"Oh, stop that," Nixon said. "People in the Navy don't do things [like that.]" |
How about a reference in this forum implying that we are calling Kerry a baby killer. Perhaps Kerry could take a little hi ground and protect the stature of the commander & chief office with the Hollywood crowd.
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buzzards27
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Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | How about a reference in this forum implying that we are calling Kerry a baby killer. Perhaps Kerry could take a little hi ground and protect the stature of the commander & chief office with the Hollywood crowd. |
why do you assume that i'm attacking this forum? i asked for a link or a reference to something that has been repeatedly said about kerry. your sounding a little defensive, for no reason. i came here to find the root source. clearly, you are not able to provide me with that information, so maybe someone else here can. |
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rbshirley
Founder
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry and his baby killer claims. |
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| buzzards27 wrote: | | I was wondering if someone could point to the link where kerry is quoted using the words "baby killer" |
I believe your assumption is correct. The one word that John Kerry left out of all
of his multiple accusations of widespread and supposedly authoritatively condoned
war crimes and atrocities was "babykiller."
But the following long laundry list came close: "... they raped, cut off ears, cut off
heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the
power, cut off limbs, blew up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion
reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and
generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage
of war."
I will let an anti-Vietnam War protester and draft dodger give his opinion concening
the derivation of the perjorative adjective "babykiller" used to describe Vietnam
Veterans for the past thirty-five years as a result of John Kerry's "support of the
military" Even someone that protested honorably sees thru Kerry's current charade
| Quote: |
Antiwar activists who got it wrong
David Pence
Published February 27, 2004
Minneapolis - St. Paul Star Tribune
In 1972, a few years after John Kerry was in Vietnam, I was in federal prison for
draft resistance. Draftresisters were glad to have Kerry "on our side." Most vets hated
us. My dad, a World War II Marine, did not speak to me for seven years after I refused
military service. He saw draft resisters as cowards and traitors. One of his wartime
buddies said, "Take your son to Chicago, strip him naked, and see if he comes back
a pacifist." Draft resisters cheered when Muhammad Ali refused induction. Certainly he
was no coward. We cheered louder when Kerry testified against the war. Certainly
he was no traitor.
But even as an activist, I was shocked at Kerry's characterization of American atrocities
in Vietnam as commonplace. The image of the American solider as "babykiller" was
being born. In a foreign country, our men were shot for the uniform they wore. In their
own country, they could not wear it for shame. For other men, flag draped boxes
sealed them from such insults.
After Kerry's testimony, he faced no such shame. To the McGovern Democrats,
he became a hero. He was headed to elected office as the solider who hated the
war. He had a receptive audience in Massachusetts for his stories of attrocities by
soldiers and criminality by the government.
Back in Minnesota I was headed for jail. There was no shame for me either. The
judge was sympathetic and let me say good-byes at parties and rallies. I timed my
entry to jail for noon on Good Friday. I had quit the church but in my own marijuana
enhanced brain the righteousness of our cause demanded the backdrop of Calvary.
I went to prison as a local star at the antiwar rallies, a martyr to the growing pacifist
movement in the Catholic Church and a good source to the friendly reporters
who sympathized with our cause.
By 1972 if a man would go to jail or a returning solider would repudiate the war, he
was assured an influential community of support and adulation. For the soldiers who
returned from military duty, there was no such honor. Their shame came not from
guilt about their actions as soldiers but from propaganda of the antiwar movement.
The war against the Soviet Union was the great moral struggle of the post-WWII
generation Leaving Vietnam did not end the fight against communism but changed the
battlefield to Catholic Poland and Muslim Afghanistan. The left's complaint was not
about Vietnam as a particular battlefield but the Cold War as a worthy enterprise.
Kerry described the Cold War as "the mystical war against communism" in his infamous
Senate testimony (in April 1971). It turns out that communism was not so mystical --
not in the killing fields of Cambodia or the captive nations of Eastern Europe or
the Islamic southern rim of the Soviet Union.
I am ashamed of my role in those not-so-glorious '60s. I honor John Kerry the solider.
But in this time of war, we must repudiate his disgraceful depiction of the soldier in
Vietnam, his mistaken understanding of the Cold War, and his equivocation in our
present war.
For those tempted to use a soldier's story to advance the worldview of the "peace
movement," take pause.
We were wrong then; you don't have to be wrong now.
David Pence was sentenced to a year and a day in 1972 for draft resistance.
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Last edited by rbshirley on Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:15 pm; edited 8 times in total |
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coldwarvet
Admiral
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
Posts: 1125
Location: Minnetonka, MN
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| Posted: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject: Re: Kerry and his baby killer claims. |
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| buzzards27 wrote: | | I was wondering if someone could point to the link where kerry is quoted using the words "baby killer" I know about the VVAW and the Wintersoldier thing in detroit and his congressional 'visit'. Where in all of that stuff did kerry use those words? |
Thank you buzzards27 for pointing out my conclusive behavior. I guess I have been a little over vigilant. It has just been one of the tactics of the lefty's to come in here and make requests that implicate members of spewing things that are not supported
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"Peace is our Profession"
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buzzards27
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 12:33 am Post subject: |
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ColdWarVet; there is no reason to be overly vigilant. while, at this point, i may not totally agree with or understand either side, your behavior is counterproductive to your cause. i am simply looking for information to make an important decision. Read my first post [not the subject heading], i am looking for kerry's use of this word, whether referring himself or others. i'm am trying to determine the credibility of claims i've heard. others have put the word "babykiller" in kerry's mouth. i looked at the winter soldier thing, the congressional thing and the dick cavett interview and i haven't found him using this word. My guess is if the quote was out there you'd know about it, so Haldeman's quote is as close a I get...
rbshirley; I've seen that kerry quote your noted [i note you didn't include the full quote "They told the stories at times they had personally raped..."]. He was apparently referring to testimony from the winter soldier thing. The way I read it was he wasn't neccessarily adopting those words as his, but relating what took place in detroit. maybe i'm wrong.
the way i take most of this is that kerry was opposed to the war and opposed the govenment carrying it out. I don't see where he says he opposes or condems the foot soldiers. Again, I may be wrong. I've just spent a few days looking at this stuff and don't know enough to say for sure. |
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War Dog
Captain
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 517
Location: Below Birmingham Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:02 am Post subject: |
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buzzards27, I don't think you will find any post here on this site where anyone said that John Kerry used the words "Babykiller". What you will find is many posts that attribute that word to the many anti-war protestors during the Vietnam War, as well as many anti-war types in the last 30 something years, and as recent as two parades on the 4th of July in our nation.
Maybe you should check out all the threads here, and get your facts straight before you directly or indirectly come here, and try and cause trouble. Watch your step! We tolerate no trolls here!
Friggin War Woof!
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When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit." |
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KeithNolan
Ensign
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Washington County, Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Debates about John Kerry's days with the VVAW can be found at threads I started, to include "this website is fueled by lies and innuendo (part two)" and "Joe Conason's charges against the SBVFT."
I don't think Kerry ever used the "baby-killer" epithet. In any event, the baby-killer slur was in use among the anti-war hardcore since 1965 when General Westmoreland's search-and-destroy strategy was put into effect with telling effect on the civilian population of Vietnam. The slur really gained traction when the details of the My Lai massacre was revealed in 1969.
John Kerry really didn't have much to do with it. . . .
Keith Nolan |
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hist/student
Lieutenant
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 243
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:15 am Post subject: |
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I think you will find that kerry's connection to 'baby killers' is by way of the media of the era's paraphrasing what he said at winter soldier. I'd look at Walter Cronkite and the NY Times if you are seriously interested.
This was a chant shouted at soldiers wearing their uniforms in public in those days. This was done at airports and pretty much any where a soldier might be seen.
Remember Kerry was front man for the worst of the worst of the anti war groups. This taunt of 'baby killer' is standard brainwashing crap, used to try and break down a vets psyche so that VVAW (or the moonies for that matter) could more readily remold a soldiers ego to thier design. There was allot of stuff going on in those days, watch the Mancurian Candidate.
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXx
Keith, please for once be accurate, please. You are continuing with extraordinary disrespect with your inaccuracies.
There may have been some element of a 'anti war' movement in 65 but it was infinitesimal when compared with what arose after the 'May day piece tribe' and 'Winter Soldier'.
I really don't understand how you could be so ignorant of that which garners your living. Things did not heat up until after 68 and the assassinations of R Kennedy and M L King.... they came to a head in 71. You really should take a history course or something.
Here is a time line of the war protests. I moved to D C in 69. The single largest protest was the Mayday Peace tribe. This was the height of the 'baby killer' dung. Also this is when the Barrigan brothers began throwing chicken blood on my father and his peers on a daily basis as he went to work at the pentagon.
18 Apr 71 - 2,300 Vietnam Veterans came to Washington, DC to participate in Dewey Canyon III, "a military incursion into the country of Congress". Led by Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), the vets camped on the mall 1/4 mile from the Capitol, and threw away military medals and ribbons at the foot of the statue of Chief Justice John Marshall.
24 Apr 71 - 10 days of protests by a group calling themselves the "Mayday Tribe" included attempted work stoppages at several federal offices in Washington, DC
3 May 71 - 5,100 policemen backed by 10,000 federal troops resulted in an unprecedented mass arrest of approximately 7,000 persons, with another 2,700 arrested the next day. Protests ended 5 May with the arrest of another 1,200 demonstrators on the Capitol's east steps during a rally attended by some members of Congress
Kerry as the 'front man' for VVAW certainly is absolutely culpable in the 'baby killer' manacle. Yes Cally played a role as well, yet a fraction of what Kerry's role was.
(Deleted by admin) |
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rbshirley
Founder
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 394
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:41 am Post subject: |
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| buzzards27 wrote: | the way i take most of this is that kerry was opposed to the war and opposed the govenment carrying it out. I don't see where he says he opposes or condems the foot soldiers. Again, I may be wrong. I've just spent a few days looking at this stuff and don't know enough to say for sure.
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It is the manner in which John Kerry opposed the war which is so troublng.
Which is what anti-war activist/draft dodger David Pence so eloquently stated
Please go back and read his article again. You asked about how "babykiller"
is associated with Kerry. This article clearly identifies where and how this
derogatory terminology was originated,
Further, taking a position on an issue such as the war is one thing. Aiding and
abetting the enemy is quite another. John Kerry not only associated himself
with communist North Vietnam by meeting with them, he also actively pusued
promulgating their propaganda concerning US commited atrocities and then
became a strong proponent for their demand that the US pull out unilaterly
from South East Asia.
I am sure you have seen pictures of the current tribute paid by the Vietnamese
Communist Party in the "War Crimes Museum" in Ho Chi Minh City to Kerry for
the way in which he supported their means of prevailing to win the war.
In his 1971 testimony, he first openly admits that he met with and adopted
the positions of the North Vietnamese enemy, and then blatantly advocates
that the congress accept and act on the eight-point plan for surrender that
was proposed by the communist regime.
| Kerry testified / wrote: |
I have been to Paris. I have talked with both delegations at the peace talks
that is to say the Democratic Republic of Vietnam and the Revolutionary
Government and of all eight of Madam Binh's points it has been stated time
and time again, and was stated by Senator Vance Hartke when he returned
from Paris, and it has been stated by many other officials of this Government,
if the United States were to set a date for withdrawal, the prisoners of war
would be returned.
I think this negates very clearly the argument of the President that we
have to maintain a presence in Vietnam, to use as a negotiating block for
the return of those prisoners. The setting of a date will accomplish that.
As to the argument concerning the danger to our troops were we to withdraw
or state that we would, they have also said many times in conjunction with
that statement that all of our troops, the moment we set a date, Will be
given conduct out of Vietnam. The only other important point is that we
allow the South Vietnamese people to determine their own future and that
ostensibly is what we have been fighting for, anyway.
I would, therefore, submit that the most expedient means of getting out of
South Vietnam would be for the President of the United States to declare
cease-fire, to stop this blind commitment to a dictatorial regime, the
Thieu-Ky-Khiem regime, accept a coalition regime which would represent
all the political forces of the country which is in fact what a government is
supposed to do and which is in fact this Government here in this country
purports to do, and pull the troops out without losing one more American,
and still further without losing the South Vietnamese.
---
I think if we were to replace the Thieu-Ky-Khiem regime and offer these
men sanctuary somewhere, which I think this Government has an obligation
to do since we created that government and supported it all along. I
there would not be any problems. The number two man at the Saigon talks
Ambassador Lam was asked by the Concerned Laymen, who visited with
them in Paris last month, how long they felt they could survive if the States
would pull out and his answer was 1 week. So I think clearly we do have to
face this question. But I think, having done what we have done to that
country, we have an obligation to offer sanctuary to the perhaps 2,000,
3,000 people who might face, and obviously they we understand that,
might face political assassination or something else.
But my feeling is that those 3,000 who may have to leave that country --
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Subsequent history has proven just how wrong Kerry was in siding with
the North Vietnamese communists:
a) War Crimes by the US Military were not wide spread as he and the
communists portrayed. Later investigations by the US have shown that
criminal activity by American military men was no greater than in any
other conflict ... which is to say very small and unusual.
b) Just as soon as the Congress stopped all support to South East Asia, the
communist regimes invaded and took over Vietnam, Laos, and Cambodia
using the resources provided by Russia and China with no fear of outside
opposition. They never had any plans to abide by the terms they provided
Kerry with.
c) Instead of retribution against only 3,000 people as Kerry testified, the
death toll from the re-education camps reached hundreds of thousands in
Vietnam and millions in Cambodia and Laos.
During his testimony before Congress, Kerry lamented that he was concerned
that Americans placed less value on Oriental lives than on Western ones.
His actions above belie that concern.
On a personal note, my wife's father was one of the uncounted thousands
that perished without a trace in the Vietnamese camps. I have a personal
reason to believe that John Kerry should not be president in this time of
grave danger to the world.
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Indianbaboon
Lieutenant
Joined: 04 Jul 2004
Posts: 234
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:55 am Post subject: |
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busstards,
I know in the pretty little new world that liberal educators have smothered us with, you can't see the fallacy in your statement:
[quote]the way i take most of this is that kerry was opposed to the war and opposed the govenment carrying it out. I don't see where he says he opposes or condems the foot soldiers. [quote]
Simple human psychology, on both sides of the conflict. Opposing a war and opposing a govt the way he did both aided and abetted the enemy while at the same time ensuring that the soldiers who returned did not get the hero's welcome they deserved.
Ever play team sports? When a player on your team has a fatalistic attitude and openly says "the other team is better," your team flags. When you don't believe you can win the game yourself, your fans lose their enthusiasm. This is in essence disrespecting and encouraging non-players to disrespect the players.
If the other team sees this player's lack of confidence, it gains confidence. It becomes emboldened saying "look, even they know they can't win/are in teh wrong". THis is aid and comfort to the enemy.
Kerry in essence told civilians that our ssoldiers were not honorable men defending the american way and the freedom of the world but petty barbarians. Vikings and huns who raped, pillaged, and burned for the sheer joy of it. He was the kindling of the fires that raged against our troops on their return home
Kerry told the NVA that he believed in them, supported them, and wanted them to win. The NVA thought, well if even americans want us to win, then that's a shot in the arm of confidence.
KERRY KILLED SOLDIERS, KERRY ALIENATED SOLDIERS, KERRY DISPARAGED, INJURED, AND DESTROYED SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO I LOOK UP TO MOST. Indirect action is still action.  |
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buzzards27
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I think you will find that kerry's connection to 'baby killers' is by way of the media of the era's paraphrasing what he said at winter soldier.
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hist/student; again, i'm here looking for credible information. not distortion and revisionary history. from what i've read kerry did not 'testify' a winter soldier. i think you mean what he said about winter soldier was paraphased, like the alteration of the kerry quote from "They told the stories at times they had personally raped..." to "... they raped...". Why is this quote altered, here and elsewhere?
as to the genesis of "baby killer", based on Haldeman quote in the 'tapes' it's use must have been common before 1971. "He was a Navy lieutenant, j.g., on a gunboat, and he used to run his gunboat up and shoot at, shoot babies out of women's arms," Haldeman said. God, here you have the white house calling kerry a baby killer... [nixon said later on the same tape that there weren't any Navy casualites]. |
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