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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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 Posted: Thu May 13, 2004 11:51 pm Post subject: |
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"That is clearly Kerry admitting to committing acts in violation of the laws of warfare prohibiting it. "
But those were all things he was ordered to do from the top down. Zumwalt down to the average grunt spoke regularly about and acted regularly on these orders. There was not a war zone in Vietnam where this wasn't a daily and routine occurrence that admirals down to galley hands weren't aware of. These were written orders and were routinely reported in American newspapers.
And the only people speaking out about what you call "war crimes" were the protesters at home! That says a lot about those who supported the war, eh?
Was the war in Vietnam so completely in violation of the laws of warfare? Were our military leaders so capable of issuing standing orders to commit "war crimes"?
Personally, I respect those who, out of conscience, avoided the war and protested instead. While serving out of a sense of duty was honorable, refusing to carry out such routine and commonplace orders was the more civilized action.
When soldiers are asked to burn villages, use harassment and interdiction fire, take part in search and destroy missions, etc..., the moral thing to do would be to refuse. Those things shouldn't have happened and I'd support anyone who committed mutiny against those orders.
It's too bad that Kerry concluded AFTER he left Vietnam that those commonplace and pervasive orders "from the top" were morally wrong. And it's also too bad that he concluded afterwards that these orders were not, in and of themselves, not "atrocities."
And he never said "I committed war crimes." |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 12:01 am Post subject: |
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"ALL Vietnam veterans are murderers, rapists, and arsonists because this decorated war hero said so. "
But he didn't say that. He never said "all vietnam veterans are....." More later tonight. |
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NecAsperaTerra
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 12:08 am Post subject: No "War Crimes" -- Roy Hoffmann Made It All Legal |
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This guy sure got around then, just like he gets around now. Meet the leader of this "indignant" and "offended" "political action committee":
| Quote: | Delta Platoon was assigned to the Navy's Task Force 115, based at Cam Ranh Bay and commanded by Capt. Roy Hoffmann, a favorite of Adm. Elmo Zumwalt Jr., the Navy's top man in Vietnam. Hoffmann was a cigar-chomping officer who brandished an M-16 assault rifle and wore a revolver when he visited troops in the field. "He was the classic body-count guy...Bunkers destroyed, hooches destroyed, sort of scorekeeper."
In the summer of 1968, Hoffmann complained to his superiors in Pearl Harbor that the prevailing rules of engagement were too constrictive. "This was war," Hoffmann said in an interview last month. "This wasn't Sunday school." He made what he said was a pro forma request for looser rules, which was granted.
Previously, Hoffmann said, military personnel had not been permitted to fire unless they were fired upon. Under the new rules, he said, they could attack if they felt threatened. "I told them you not only have authority, I damned well expect action," Hoffmann recalled. "If there were men there and they didn't kill them or capture them, you'd hear from me." |
What Happened at Thanh Phong: http://www.mishalov.com/Kerrey.html (No, not a misspelling.)
Hoffmann, center. "He was the classic body-count guy."
That guy (how old is he now? Does he have his memory?) is the one who made it legal for them to perform these acts! Then THEY come home and feel guilty all their g-damned lives, hating themselves, suffering from PTSD, never having a real life, often ruining their childrens' lives, while HE comes home happy as a clam, then one day goes on TV to accuse one of his men of admitted that he did what he ordered them to do!
Is there an audacity left in this country, or is all in Washington, DC? |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 4:19 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | "ALL Vietnam veterans are murderers, rapists, and arsonists because this decorated war hero said so. "
But he didn't say that. He never said "all vietnam veterans are....." More later tonight. |
Can't hardly wait.
I love it when you have to leave important words out of a quote to make your point.
Quote the whole thing O Mighty One and then make your point.
While you're at it , why don't you tell us where Kerry got that 50 calibre M-16.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 5:28 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: |
And he never said "I committed war crimes." |
You're right he never used those exact words, but what he did say as I outlined above is a claim by Kerry that he committed acts that were war crimes.
The Nuerenburg defense and all the other tangents you tried to take off on don't change that fact.
Personally I believe he was lying in that as you point out in several of your post those acts aren't really war crimes and he knew they weren't at the time he made that statement.
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri May 14, 2004 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | | sparky wrote: | "ALL Vietnam veterans are murderers, rapists, and arsonists because this decorated war hero said so. "
But he didn't say that. He never said "all vietnam veterans are....." More later tonight. |
Can't hardly wait.
I love it when you have to leave important words out of a quote to make your point.
Quote the whole thing O Mighty One and then make your point.
While you're at it , why don't you tell us where Kerry got that 50 calibre M-16. |
Still waiting. You promised more.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 2:42 am Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | , and millions of people are left with the impression that ALL Vietnam veterans are murderers, rapists, and arsonists because this decorated war hero said so.
For your information, I do not now nor have I ever believed that Kerry committed murder by killing this man.
Thanks for your help. |
There's the real wording, Sparky.
You left out " and millions of people are left with the impression that ..."
With those words there, you have no point.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: |
But those were all things he was ordered to do from the top down. |
What has that to do with anything?
I refer you to the Nuremberg trials. Orders are not a valid excuse for the commission of warcrimes.
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De Oppresso Liber |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 8:14 am Post subject: |
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Here it is! Carbo freaked because I didn't repeat the same consecutive sentence. The original
| Quote: | Some conservative here "quoted" Kerry: "ALL Vietnam veterans are murderers, rapists, and arsonists because this decorated war hero said so. "
I responded:
But he didn't say that. He never said "all vietnam veterans are....." More later tonight. |
Carbo then responded:
| Quote: |
I love it when you have to leave important words out of a quote to make your point.
Quote the whole thing O Mighty One and then make your point. |
Like leaving out something ten pixels above matters, Carbo. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| sparky wrote: | Here it is! Carbo freaked because I didn't repeat the same consecutive sentence. The original
| Quote: | Some conservative here "quoted" Kerry: "ALL Vietnam veterans are murderers, rapists, and arsonists because this decorated war hero said so. "
I responded:
But he didn't say that. He never said "all vietnam veterans are....." More later tonight. |
Carbo then responded:
| Quote: |
I love it when you have to leave important words out of a quote to make your point.
Quote the whole thing O Mighty One and then make your point. |
Like leaving out something ten pixels above matters, Carbo. |
Sparky, you old quote changer ,you.
I'm sure everyone interested in this little fracas can read the last couple of pages of this thread and make up their own mind.
Did you ever find out where Kerry got that 50 Cal M-16?
In the meantime , I just urge everyone on the forum to be sure and check your quotes for alterations.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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The bandit
Commander
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 349
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | | carpro wrote: | , and millions of people are left with the impression that ALL Vietnam veterans are murderers, rapists, and arsonists because this decorated war hero said so.
For your information, I do not now nor have I ever believed that Kerry committed murder by killing this man.
Thanks for your help. |
There's the real wording, Sparky.
You left out " and millions of people are left with the impression that ..."
With those words there, you have no point. |
This is a good illustration of "impressions" that people were left with about the Vietnam War:
"Once upon a time, in the land of milk and honey, Memorial day was our proudest holiday. We honored the dead, those who'd died in the line of duty protecting OUR freedom. It was the least we could do for such a great sacrifice.
Sadly, Vietnam has tarnished this national observance. For there is an unspoken question that lingers,perhaps out of our remaining innocence but nevertheless stays there in our conscience just the same, like a worrisome growth:
When we honor the dead, do we honor the murderers as well!"
Written by Dan Bodine and published in The Cleburne Times Review editorial section sometime between 1985 and 1988.
John Kerry helped instill that impression in peoples hearts and minds.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | | carpro wrote: | , and millions of people are left with the impression that ALL Vietnam veterans are murderers, rapists, and arsonists because this decorated war hero said so.
For your information, I do not now nor have I ever believed that Kerry committed murder by killing this man.
Thanks for your help. |
There's the real wording, Sparky.
You left out " and millions of people are left with the impression that ..."
With those words there, you have no point. |
This is a good illustration of "impressions" that people were left with about the Vietnam War:
"Once upon a time, in the land of milk and honey, Memorial day was our proudest holiday. We honored the dead, those who'd died in the line of duty protecting OUR freedom. It was the least we could do for such a great sacrifice.
Sadly, Vietnam has tarnished this national observance. For there is an unspoken question that lingers,perhaps out of our remaining innocence but nevertheless stays there in our conscience just the same, like a worrisome growth:
When we honor the dead, do we honor the murderers as well!"
Written by Dan Bodine and published in The Cleburne Times Review editorial section sometime between 1985 and 1988.
John Kerry helped instill that impression in peoples hearts and minds.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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ROTC DAD
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 12 May 2004
Posts: 147
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:07 pm Post subject: |
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carpro,
I wonder what you have to say to all those on this site who have gone after Kerry winning a Bronze Star by saying that a Bronze Star is worthless as they were given out like candy? If Bronze Stars are worthless as they were given out like candy, and therefore Kerry's is worthless, doesn't that make everyone's who ever received one worthless?
Yet to denigrate Kerry, that very logic has been used on this forum. So, it appears, it's okay to denigrate the sacrifice of of Vets - Veitnam and otherwise - if you do so to attack Kerry's military service. |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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Hey ROTC.
Where you been?
I said ,with an enlisted man's bias, that they were like "officer candy".
Sadly, the ease of an officer obtaining a bronze star does call them all into question. The "V" would denote one awarded under combat conditions, but the bar was still lower for an officer than an enlisted man and the "V" was easier to obtain for an officer with no heroism involved than for an enlisted
man.
They are not ALL worthless but too many were handed out that were.
Kerry's deserved? Maybe. I'm sure the man in the water thought so and he's the one that recommended it.
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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