SwiftVets.com

[Ohio Voter]

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-parumsfeld09dec09,0,7208140.story?coll=sfla-news-palm

The story on Rumsfeld being questioned by troops about the lack of proper armored vehicles is bringing the issue into the public forum. I would like to know what we, us, I, can do to put politicians and the military top brass on notice that we want our guys taken care of first, before we grease the palms of diplomats or keep our comforts at home.

Here is one bloggers firsthand point of view which disturbs me.

[Copied from another board]

> Rumsfeld, 72, said all organizations had equipment, materials, and spare
> parts of different vintages, but he expressed confidence that Army leaders
> were assigning the newest and best equipment to the troops headed for combat
> who needed it most.

********.


According to the guys in my unit over there, the command staff and
officers have all the uparmored humvees (and they just putter around the
base with them) while the guys out on patrol have old,
poorly-maintained, and unarmored vhiecles.

During my training at Fort Lewis, I can confirm this -- I was the one
who drove the Captain around and he talked about this both with us
little guys and the other leadership.

Oh, and the National Guard gets screwed in every respect by the regular
army. There's "what the army tells the public" and "what really happens".

> ===> Moreover, he said, adding armor to trucks and battle equipment did not
> make them impervious to enemy attack. "If you think about it, you can have
> all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can be blown up," he said.
> "And you can have an up-armored Humvee and it can be blown up."

That's very true. Armor's over-rated. It's rather fun to see how my
buddies over there are handling things. The guys who have been tank
crewmen their entire careers are welding more and more metal to their
vehicles in an attempt to make them light tanks. The guys who are
Rangers/SF qualified but have cross-trained as tankers are stripping all
the bodies off their humvees and turning seats 90° so the troops can see
and shoot in all directions simultaneously. The threat of return
firepower is, to them, far more important than hunkering down.

That said, I'd much rather be in a tank than in a humvee, uparmored or
not.

[End of copied material]

Ok so this is not what I think happens on the battlefield. But humans being human even in a war zone, there are going to be top brass taking all the goodies off the top and doleing out crumbs to the "pee-ons". I want to put someones feet to the fire so someone else is making those decisions. And I want our tax paying dollar to go where it will protect the soldiers on the front line.

Any comment?

[PhantomSgt]

President Bush today sent a supplemental appropriation request to Congress for the purchase of 300,000 M-1 tanks. A White House spokesman said; "It is the President's hope that every soldier has his own personal M-1 Tank for protection". He went on to say; "The multi trillion dollar request will only add slightly to the National debt".

Are these the same Humvees we used in the 1st Gulf War? I never heard any complaints then.
_________________
Retired AF E-8

Independent that leans right of center.

[GM Strong]

This is a Strawman argument.

US Military Combat Engineers and Troops have a long record of meeting the challenge in the field. Unexpected conditions and challenges have always been overcome by the ingenuity of the American soldier. Whether it was Grant's men at Vicksburg or the breaking through the Hedgerows at Normandy with improvised tanks or now adapting the HumVee, they have always come through. Given the resources, they will meet the challenge and take the initiative.

The HumVee was designed as a replacement for the Jeep. Never meant to be an armored combat vehicle, it is being found it needs to be modified for that purpose. Field modifications work back to procurement source. It is not instantaneous. Needs are being met. If liberals like sKerry and harpies like San Fran Nan would quite whining and get with the program, this would be a moot point.

This 300,000 M-1 number on the face of it sounds excessive. Somebody needs to vett it.
_________________
8th Army Korea 68-69

[carpro]

This pertains to your subject. You might get some useful and up to date info from it.



http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/breaking_10.html
U.S. Central Command has added armor to 22,000 of its 30,000 fleet



SPECIAL TO WORLD TRIBUNE.COM
Friday, December 10, 2004
The United States has satisfied about 70 percent of the military's combat armored vehicle requirements in the Middle East and surrounding regions.

Officials said that over the last year the U.S. Army has vastly increased the number of combat and support military vehicles that received armor. They said the aim was to armor every vehicle deployed by the U.S. military in the Middle East, Persian Gulf, South Asia and Central Asia regions.

Officials and soldiers said the accelerated rate of production has been insufficient to achieve the army's goal to armor its entire vehicle fleet in Iraq. They said the result has been a significant shortage of armored vehicles particularly among transport and support units, which has affected supplies to U.S. troops in Iraq.

At the same time, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld echoed the Pentagon assessment that armored vehicles don't guarantee troop safety. He cited the destruction of U.S. main battle tanks from mines, and other officials said 120 up-armored Humvees were destroyed by insurgency attacks in Iraq, Middle East Newsline reported.

"You can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can be blown up," Rumsfeld said.


Defense Department officials said U.S. contractors were cranking out hundreds of armored Humvees per month for the army. They said that only 15 months ago production of armored Humvees was about 30 per month.
On Dec. 8, Rumsfeld, meeting U.S. forces in Kuwait, was told that army units were digging through local landfills for "pieces of scrap metal and compromised ballistic glass to up-armor our vehicles."

Rumsfeld responded that production capability marked a key element in the acquisition of up-armored kits for military vehicles deployed in Iraq.

"The army has been pressing ahead to produce the armor necessary at a rate that they believe," Rumsfeld said. "It's a greatly expanded rate from what existed previously — but, at a rate that they believe is the rate that is all that can be accomplished at this moment."

The U.S. military set a requirement of 8,100 up-armored Humvees, of which about 6,000 were being produced, officials said. They said that about 22,000 of Central Command's fleet of 30,000 vehicles have received some form of armor.

Over the last few months, the army has expanded the up-armor effort to include non-combat vehicles in Iraq, officials said. They said the army has added armor to 507 heavy tactical trucks, 492 medium tactical vehicles, two heavy equipment trailers, eight M-915 trucks and 187 palletized load system vehicles that serve in Iraq. The army has operated four depots, two arsenals and one ammunition plant for the production of the armor kits.

Lt. Gen. Steve Whitcomb, commander of the U.S. Third Army, outlined three levels of up-armoring. In a briefing on Thursday, Whitecomb said Level One, manufactured in the United States, provides glass and other armament on the side, front, rear, top and bottom of the vehicle. He said slightly under 6,000 vehicles have received such protection.


Another 10,000 vehicles have received Level 2 protection, or the installation of add-on armor on existing vehicles. Whitcomb said such work has taken place in Iraq and Kuwait. Whitcomb said Level 2 does not provide protection at the top or bottom of the vehicle.

The lowest level, regarded as an interim measure, was termed Level 3, or hardening. This involved the welding of steel plates on military vehicles.

"Our real focus for the Level 3 armor is not the Humvees," Whitcomb said. "It's really the series of trucks that the army uses in combat operations. We're not doing it in large numbers yet. We're doing it where we can. We're building a capacity to be able to do that more frequently, to refurbish the fleet. But that is an issue."

Officials said the army has decided to produce armor add-on kits for all wheeled vehicles deployed to Iraq and the rest of the area under U.S. Central Command. The command is responsible for most of the Middle East, Persian Gulf, Central Asia and South Asia.

Pentagon spokesman Larry Di Rita said the decision to launch add-on armor production took place around August 2003 amid in an increase in insurgency bombing attacks on U.S. combat vehicles and covoys in Iraq. Di Rita said army commanders determined that combat troops and support units were not sufficiently protected from rocket-propelled grenades, mortars and roadside bombs, known in the military as improvised explosive devices.

In Iraq, Di Rita, said, commanders no longer permit unarmored vehicles to drive alone. Instead, they have been placed in convoys with combat armored vehicles.

"Commanders there at that point started to face this growing improvised explosive device challenge and said that they would like to have higher numbers of armored Humvees than they had originally projected," Di Rita said.

In December, the Pentagon awarded a $6.6 million contract to O'Gara-Hess & Eisenhardt Armoring Armoring for support of up-armored Humvees for the army. The Fairfield, Ohio-based company was contracted to complete the project by December 2007.

Officials said that in 2004, the army has been producing about 450 armored Humvees per month. They said the armor add-on kits were being fitted on to the 19,000 Humvees in the U.S. Central Command area of operations.

So far, 15,000 Humvees have been fitted with armor. The command has a total of 30,000 vehicles and officials said about 8,000 of them have no form of armor protection.

"While armor provides protection, it is not the be-all and end-all for security," Pentagon spokesman Maj. Paul Swiergosz said. "The army's IED Task Force and the Center for Army Lessons Learned have provided as much, if not more, protection for our forces by sharing tactics, techniques and procedures to help counter IED attacks."
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service."

[GM Strong]

[Ohio Voter]

Well that is good to hear. Doesn't really matter if the MSM knows beans about anything, I just want to be sure there is no politicing and rank pulled leaving the soldiers in more harms way than necessary. Shining light on the problem will shape them up quick, if there are any generals in the field running around in armor while the lowely foot soldier is being shot at.

It only takes one such general to give them all a bad name, as we have seen with the prison abuse issues in the news.

And shining the light on the issue has given President Bush a nudge too. I honestly think he would do anything and everything within his power to insure the military have what they need. The problem is getting the needs to the president without it being filtered through a line of yes men.

[Armybrat/Armymom]

My son is one of these young men who has been taken out of the M1A1 and being put into a Humvee. He has recently arrived in Iraq and I am scared to watch the news. I know we are there for a good cause but.......keep my son safe too.

[mtboone]

Army Brat/Army Mom

My son is one of these young men who has been taken out of the M1A1 and being put into a Humvee. He has recently arrived in Iraq and I am scared to watch the news. I know we are there for a good cause but.......keep my son safe too.

I remember my mother the night before I left for VN, she cried and through up all night, and I heard this all. I can only imagine what you are going through, these men and woman are trained and better equiped than we were and probably have more cohesion because they go in together and come out together. My first crew left one month after I got there. Here am I, a NF Guy and then they were gone. His training will kick in and he will be okay. You will worry but he will be okay. Trust in him and HIM.
_________________
Terry Boone PCF 90
Qui Nhon 68-69

[greasepaint]

Chop up a surplus destroyer,
or something.

[GM Strong]

There is no armor shortage. Take a look at other postings. What is being dealt with is tactical change and adaptation. Our guys are extremely good at it.
_________________
8th Army Korea 68-69