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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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 Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:32 am Post subject: NYTimes piece 23 Jan 2005 |
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http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/arts/23rich.html?th
Published: January 23, 2005
(Deleted By Admin)
Admin note: This is your second cut and paste from a source and publication generally accepted as left-wing and antagonistic towards SVPT and their (our) political leanings. Like your first, it contained no comment from you either in support or in rebuttal of the content. Lest you are left with the impression that the unedited, uncommented upon articles from sources such as this are appropriate for this forum, you are quite mistaken.
As with Moore, Krugman, Dowd or any other left-wing source, limited use of selected quotes with your comments and a link to the source may, on occasion, be appropriate. Please refrain, however, from any further unedited reproduction of such source material.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation. |
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ROCK71553
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Oct 2004
Posts: 8
Location: Illinois
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| Posted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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Quote:: "....Nobody seems to be listening," Mr. Danner said last week, as he prepared to return to Iraq to continue reporting on the war for The New York Review. That so few want to listen may in part be a reflection of the country's growing disenchantment with the war as a whole. (In an inauguration-eve Washington Post-ABC News poll, only 44 percent said the war was worth fighting.) The practice of torture by Americans is not only ugly in itself. It conjures up the specter of defeat. We can't "win" the war in Iraq if we lose the battle for public opinion in the Middle East. At the gut level, Americans know that the revelations of Abu Ghraib coincided with - and very likely spurred - the ruthlessness of an insurgency that has since taken the lives of many brave United States troops who would never commit the lawless acts of a Charles Graner or seek some ruling out of Washington that might countenance them...... "
My comments:
Admitting that the insurgency was spurred when the pictures were published and still want to give more publicity to this issue??? Could a war ever be won using their scrutiny? The only conflict lost by the US was due to loss of internal public opinion and not around the world. Liberals are innocent until proven guilty but the officers and conservatives are smeared in the media and then have to be prove themselves innocent of crimes. I hear of echos of Kerry from many years ago. Maybe John and Mary Public are so caring about the health of the soldiers that political leanings are cast aside and that negative publicity that will endanger lives is believed to be improper these days. Maybe there is hope that the MSM will be the losers this time around. Mr. Danner and Mr Rich have behavior that is pathetic in a time of war. |
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:24 am Post subject: Re: NYTimes piece 23 Jan 2005 |
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| Bob51 wrote: | http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/23/arts/23rich.html?th
Published: January 23, 2005
(Deleted By Admin)
Admin note: This is your second cut and paste from a source and publication generally accepted as left-wing and antagonistic towards SVPT and their (our) political leanings. Like your first, it contained no comment from you either in support or in rebuttal of the content. Lest you are left with the impression that the unedited, uncommented upon articles from sources such as this are appropriate for this forum, you are quite mistaken.
As with Moore, Krugman, Dowd or any other left-wing source, limited use of selected quotes with your comments and a link to the source may, on occasion, be appropriate. Please refrain, however, from any further unedited reproduction of such source material.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation. |
Thanks for the advice on forum etiquette. In China, we often forget that copying and pasting has different intellectual property connotations than just providing a link. I suppose Americans see the former as theft whereas the latter constitutes an introduction to the source.
Actually the idea that such niceties are so sensitive is the reason why I try to avoid comment or even the appearance of comment when interacting with Americans these days. At a recent dinner in Hong KOng before your election, the two American guests at the table held very opposing political views and their vehement argument destroyed the social occasion to the amusement of some and the annoyance of others.
I originally spotted this site as a byproduct of the usual random websurfing. The mention of 'veterans' and 'truth' caught my attention since the very few journalists I know despise their profession and the others in it. The content was commentary on issues to do with the American election but I watched the film about "Honour" and the experiences of POWs in Hanoi.
This particularly interested me since I met with some former North Vietnamese Army soldiers in Hanoi in the early 90s. At this time they were building up businesses and made the surprising observation to me that "the wrong side won". Since then I've always been interested in comments directly from veterans.
Back to interacting with Americans. It's now a general rule here to avoid any mention of politics. In fact, any interaction at all seems fraught with social danger. It's a bit like being in Wanchai when sailors have shore leave. "Oh so you're American then?" "Yes, want to make something of it??"
For international groups of expatriates, the American use of political terms seems completely alien. For example, "liberal" is apparently a loaded term whereas for England and most to the rest of the world, "Liberal Parties" are kind of middle of the road somewhat irrelevant middle class professional social groupings somewhere between conservative and labour. "Left-wing" has little meaning anymore. Ask your average entrepreneur making money as fast as he can in Shanghai whether the Communist Party in Beijing is "left-wing" and he won't have any idea what you are talking about even after consulting his dictionary.
You mentioned that American newspapers are considered to be biassed in various ways. That's normal, I suppose, just try reading China Daily for extremely distorted coverage of political events here. For those of us who are not Americans, there is no way for us to discern how the publications are classified and with current sensitivities we are not going to ask our American friends since the labels, language and names are unknown to us. I have no idea what a "GOP" is and here we only have the international editions of the International Herald Tribune and the New York Times. Cable television gives us CNN and BBC World. They all seem much the same.
You referred to Moore. I assume this is the filmmaker who made "Bowling for Columbine". Haven't seen it but I glanced at one of his books where he had some statements to make about Ireland and England. Puerile drivel was the phrase that came to mind.
Krugman was, I thought, an economics professor. Did you mean Friedman? Oddly enough, I noticed while reading his piece this morning his comment that much of Iranian youth would welcome a U.S. inspired change in their country. I'll get you the link for that if I can find an online version.
Never heard of Dowd so can't comment there.
Anyway, time to start work in this part of the world.
Admin note: BBCode enabled to display "quote" |
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mtboone
Founder
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 470
Location: Kansas City, MO.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:15 am Post subject: |
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To Bob51
It sometimes amazes me that you are posting from the other side of the World and your statement that some Vietnames thought "The wrong side won."
I went back to Vietnam two years ago and was so amazed at the people and how their lives had changed. They are such a great people, so beautiful and gracious. Thank you for your comments and I hope you can enlighten me to the thoughts from other Nations.
_________________
Terry Boone PCF 90
Qui Nhon 68-69 |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:16 am Post subject: |
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Bob51, your inability to converse with Americans about politics is because of two major reasons. The American you are trying to speak with understands what the cost of freedom and liberty is, whereas you probably take it for granted. Secondly, that American holds anyone in contempt for taking said freedom and liberty for granted, because he or she knows the reason you have it is because of their sacrifice. To further the contempt they have for you for their sacrifice is your silence of their sacrifice. Worse yet is your attack upon their sacrifice, because it doesn't fit into your utopian view of the world not realizing the only reason you have the abilility to dream the utopian ideal is that same American and the sacrifice they make to keep the world not a utopians dream but a realists paradise.
Concerning Paul Krugman, he is not an economist. He might of recieved a degree in economics, but he is at his heart a collectivist communist. He believes in Pol Pots cummunal sharing as the ideal economic system. He is a raving lunatic who hates America and any company which employs someone to make money. Pure fanatic.
Concerning Thomas Friedman who wrote the book 'From Beirut to Jerusalem, read this book and you will discover America is to blame for the Palestianian Israel conflict. Nowhere in his book does he discuss how the UN in 45-present day has armed Israels enemies while trying to keep Israel unarmed. The UN has been the source of problems in the middle east, not the US. I suggest you read a book called 'A New Hope' to get a better perspective on the formation of Israel and the cause of problems in that area of the world as opposed to Friedmans propoganda. Although 'A New Hope' is fiction, it is based upon what happened, similar in vien to the books written by Mitchell? such as 'Texas'.
More often then not the only way to find truth is to read fictionalized accounts based on truth as opposed to supposed scholars published propoganda.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:23 am Post subject: Re: NYTimes piece 23 Jan 2005 |
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| Bob51 wrote: | | Thanks for the advice on forum etiquette. In China, we often forget that copying and pasting has different intellectual property connotations than just providing a link. I suppose Americans see the former as theft whereas the latter constitutes an introduction to the source. |
Bob51...
"Fair use" litigation is certainly not unknown in this country, but my edit was prompted not so much by copyright considerations as by a desire to limit the unrestricted posting of material from sources generally considered to be in opposition to the initiative of SVPT.
As a rather "high profile" organization during our recent campaign year, this forum has had little problem attracting it's fair share of antagonists and naysayers who would (and did, for a time) run amok in here posting contentious material. Hence we elected to exercise some subjective control over the content of postings to the forum. Not being an American, I can certainly understand your unfamiliarity with many of our pundits and it appears that I may have misunderstood your intent. In the future, should you continue to wish to participate here, please feel free to use selected quotes to comment on rather than unedited reproduction with no comments. We'd all like to know your rationale (and anyone elses for that matter) for reproducing material in the forum that might generally be considered "against the grain" rather than having to speculate.
| Quote: | | Actually the idea that such niceties are so sensitive is the reason why I try to avoid comment or even the appearance of comment when interacting with Americans these days. At a recent dinner in Hong KOng before your election, the two American guests at the table held very opposing political views and their vehement argument destroyed the social occasion to the amusement of some and the annoyance of others. |
Many of us felt we were fighting for the very survival of our country as we've come to know it. I'm quite sure the number of prematurely ended dinner engagements may be gastro...I mean astronomical (not to mention friendships and family relations)
| Quote: | | I originally spotted this site as a byproduct of the usual random websurfing. The mention of 'veterans' and 'truth' caught my attention since the very few journalists I know despise their profession and the others in it. |
Tell us more.
| Quote: | | The content was commentary on issues to do with the American election but I watched the film about "Honour" and the experiences of POWs in Hanoi. |
Tell us more.
| Quote: | | This particularly interested me since I met with some former North Vietnamese Army soldiers in Hanoi in the early 90s. At this time they were building up businesses and made the surprising observation to me that "the wrong side won". Since then I've always been interested in comments directly from veterans. |
Scott Swett might love to hear this anecdote. He's our webmaster who's deeply involved in correcting the specious historical picture that's been painted of the U.S. involvement in Vietnam & SE Asia.
I'll let someone else respond to the rest. Interesting post tho...welcome to the forum.
Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Fri Jan 21, 2005 9:17 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Bob51,
Allow me to apologize for GenXr's misplaced paranoia. His diction and syntax speak for themselves.
Like Old Ichi Ban above, welcome to the board and hope to hear more. Literate, dispassionate observations are much needed. |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Fri Jan 21, 2005 11:49 pm Post subject: |
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| I B Squidly wrote: | Bob51,
Allow me to apologize for GenXr's misplaced paranoia. His diction and syntax speak for themselves.
Like Old Ichi Ban above, welcome to the board and hope to hear more. Literate, dispassionate observations are much needed. |
Your making fun of my Chomsky there are no rules writing style. Guess I need to study the Trivium.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:49 am Post subject: |
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| mtboone wrote: | To Bob51
It sometimes amazes me that you are posting from the other side of the World and your statement that some Vietnames thought "The wrong side won."
I went back to Vietnam two years ago and was so amazed at the people and how their lives had changed. They are such a great people, so beautiful and gracious. Thank you for your comments and I hope you can enlighten me to the thoughts from other Nations. |
Terry
I was also greatly charmed by all parts of Vietnam but especially the children in rural parts of North Vietnam. My driver for trips around Hanoi and Haiphong was the former NVA soldier I mentioned as building up a tourist business. He was still trying out ideas in 1993 and liked to test them on me. This meant I got to visit places that no tourist had yet been to. He then wanted me to advise on whether foreign tourists would be interested. Because of this, I got to know him better and met his family. Although he had a government minder with him it didn't seem to restrict him much at all from expressing his views.
Here's another comment from him that surprised me. I had already read the book on the Cu Chi tunnels since they were on the itinerary. He was talking about the tunnels in the South and how, when the B52s came over, they preferred to get to the entrances of the tunnels rather than take the chance of being buried alive. For some reason, I asked if he ever had nightmares about those years. His answer was very surprising given the presence of his 'minder'. "No, the only nightmare years were the years of communism". Remember this was 1993 and the location was Hanoi...
I still have his business card and, if I get back there, I'll certainly look him up. He seemed to have plenty of entrepreneurial spirit.
Here's a quote you might like from another book on Vietnam that I read at the time:
"For a' that and a' that,
It's coming yet for a' that,
That man to man, the warld o'er,
Shall brothers be for a' that."
1759-56
Any thoughts on who wrote this and where it is displayed? |
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Bob51
Seaman
Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 1:57 am Post subject: |
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| GenrXr wrote: | | Bob51, your inability to converse with Americans about politics is because of two major reasons. The American you are trying to speak with understands what the cost of freedom and liberty is, whereas you probably take it for granted. |
Fish would be inarticulate on the attributes of water. Similarly my known environment has always had the attributes of freedom and liberty to the point where any reasonable constraints on my individual actions were not apparent. There were always some who took liberties but they were generally permitted that freedom.
| Quote: | | Secondly, that American holds anyone in contempt for taking said freedom and liberty for granted, because he or she knows the reason you have it is because of their sacrifice. To further the contempt they have for you for their sacrifice is your silence of their sacrifice. |
The Chinese have an two ideogram expression in Putonghua which dictionaries render as "to reproach with contempt". Always wondered what that meant but now I understand. Interesting that you feel contemptous on behalf of a stereotypical third party of my undisclosed but inferred to be contemptible views.
The first film I ever saw was "A Hard Day's Night", featuring a foursome from Liverpool known as the Beatles. Not so much GenX, whatever that is, but self-styled as the irreverent cheeky chappie Beat Generation. Although too young for finely-honed war sensitivities, I remember being struck by this dialogue extract from the film:
"Man on train: Don't take that tone with me young man. I fought the war for your sort.
Ringo: I bet you're sorry you won."
Reminded me a little of an old book I once discovered in a Belfast bookshop. It was a cry from the heart from a veteran who had been wounded in the First World War. In his struggle to come to grips with his experiences he railed against the lack of appreciation for the sacrifices made by him and his comrades. He was particularly aggrieved about a minority at home who had sold out the heroes of the struggle and became very obsessed about the issue. Schickelgruber eventually moved onto other things but in the 1930s when my version of the book was printed his views were seen as controversial.
I found the same issue to the fore in Hue and Danang where I was given two much younger guides. In discussing places to visit they mentioned that foreigners often wanted to see museums about the war. They hadn't been and had no interest in going. Their main complaint was that a Bryan Adams' concert ticket was overpriced. They didn't want to hear stuff from parents about sacrifices and freedom and how they were privileged to grow up in a different era.
Later, at Cu Chi, when the young tour guides went back to listen to U.S. pop music on the van cassettes, I spoke to some old Viet Cong fighters. They gave me the other side on how they liked to meet U.S. veterans. Their take on it was that, as teenagers, they did what they were told to do and they assumed it was the same for Americans teenagers. Now they had a common topic for discussion: the younger generation's lack of appreciation for their sacrifice in the cause of freedom.
| Quote: | | Worse yet is your attack upon their sacrifice, because it doesn't fit into your utopian view of the world not realizing the only reason you have the abilility to dream the utopian ideal is that same American and the sacrifice they make to keep the world not a utopians dream but a realists paradise |
.
Can't remember the attack. Probably a symptom of advancing years. I grew up in Northern Ireland in the 50s and 60s where all the bombs made it a slightly dysfunctional utopia but we could dream untempered by day-to-day realism. If you've been there, you'll appreciate that for newspapers of a particular "grain", "republican" connotes "terrorists in government", while for newspapers of contrary grain, "democrat" (as in the Democratic Unionist Party) connotes ultra-conservative religious fundamentalist fellow-travellers with fascist paramilitaries (the "progressive" splinters off the "democratic" core. My adolescence was spent with friends in all of these and many other creatively-labelled groups. The "workers paradise" activists attempted to forge links across the sectarian divide but we realists were quick to expose such utopian dreams.
Thanks for your indulgence here. Time to return to the pursuit of ultra-capitalism in the world's most powerful communist country :wink: |
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Schadow
Vice Admiral
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 936
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 2:53 am Post subject: Re: NYTimes piece 23 Jan 2005 |
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| Bob51 wrote: | | ....here we only have the international editions of the International Herald Tribune and the New York Times. Cable television gives us CNN and BBC World. They all seem much the same. |
You are quite correct, Bob51. These 'news' outlets are very much the same in their political commentary. If you are free to use the internet uncensored, I would suggest you do some reading in "The Weekly Standard" and "The Washington Times."
http://weeklystandard.com/
http://www.washtimes.com/
These and others will serve to provide some balance to your current choices.
Let me add my welcome to this forum. I think you will be a valuable contributor.
Schadow
_________________
Capt, 8th U.S. Army, Korea '53 - '54 |
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fastrock
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 122
Location: Union, KY
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:16 am Post subject: Bob51 |
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Bob51,
Welcome aboard.
I have cousins in Switzerland and Germany to provide perceptive on the US. Some is not kindly, but I am very pointed as to my negative opinion of Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder of Germany.
Be sure to ask if you need an explanation of a term or phrase. You are welcome to post here or PM me.
GOP means Grand Ole’ Party which is also the Republican Party. You probably already know this, but President Bush is a member of the GOP.
Again, Welcome,
_________________
"It is never right to do wrong, even if sanctioned by law" Abe Lincoln
The Last True Cruiser
www.usslongbeach-assoc.org |
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