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Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896
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 Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 2:41 pm Post subject: Terri Schiavo - Opening The Eyes of a Conservative |
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Admin slapped my hands so I withdraw from this discussion.
God Speed
Last edited by Fort Campbell on Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:57 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome back, Fort C and I hope you stick around. Differing opinions, even if yours is a minority, is essential to arriving at a sound decision on matters, I think. As to part of your post;
| Quote: | | As you seem to think that removing these feeding tubes is tantamount to murder I have to wonder why you have not mounted a crusade against their removal years ago? |
I can only answer for myself on this. Simply removing a feeding tube isn't necessarily the point for me. If someone has left written instructions or made it very clear that they desire to pass on, as in they are terminally ill or injured, that is their clear choice and right.
However, in this particular case, it isn't clear at all. Several matters have come to light as to what her real wishes were if she even had any. A passing comment made several years prior doesn't qualify as "clear and convincing evidence," to me, anyway. Terri isn't on any life support, her body is functionaing fine without assistance, she only requires nutrition, what we all require.
The circumstances of this "collapse" are in question as is the fact that after receiving quite a tidy settlement, earmarked for her care, all therapy and rehabilitative care were cut off by the husband, the same one wanting her life ended. Evidence to the contrary of what he and his family say are her wishes was denied and when it was pointed out the judge was in error in his decision, wrongfully setting a date they must have spoke of it, he refused to reconsider.
Several other people have been coming forward in this case with evidence that her husband wasn't the caring, concerned loving spouse he claims to be and they have been ignored by the same court. Add to that, financial conflicts of interest from the judge and attorney for the husband.
The main doctor claiming she doesn't have an adequate quality of life is noted for making these claims all over the country in a quest to institute euthanasia. Other docotors who have made more detailed examinations and recommended therapies are also ignored by the same judge.
For the past 12 years, no therapy at all has been given the lady to ascertain if she may even be rehabilitated to a degree that communication could be established and her actual current wishes made known.
The above and some other reasons are why I believe there is a strong possibility this is a crime in progress. As to why strong objections have never been raised before, this is the first time I've heard of this practice.
Beyond that, the rising culture of death really disturbs me. Over the past decades, we have allowed human life to become cheapened to the point that we can now decide to end a life simply beause it is cheaper and a convenience. Christopher Reeves fought for years before he died. Were he someone like Terri Schindler/Schiavo, would he have been euthanized years ago? We currently have the Pope also having eating difficulties at 84 years old and look at the measure being taken on his behalf. Should he just be allowed to wither away?
What makes their lives more important that hers or anyone elses? I honestly feel every effort is mandated to accurately ascertain her actual wishes, not just rely on hearsay passing comments made several years before.
Each case of "death with dignity" needs to be looked at individually by it's own merit, not have a broad brush applied to suit others.
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Clark County Conservative |
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tony54
PO2
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 369
Location: cleveland, ohio
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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If you were happily married and by some freak accident you became paralyzed and bedridden in a hospital, but you could talk and listen.
Then after five years of assuming you had a loving husband you were told he moved in with another woman and had 2 kids with her.
Would you still have him control your final wishes?
Would you still consider him you loving spouse?
Would you let him manage the money you received in a malpractice suit?
Would you let him pay for an attorney that was trying to en your life out of your money that was awarded you for rehab?
Or would you rather have your loving parents take over your care?
Their have been numerous people and kids arrested not because they wanted to reinsert the tube, but because they were trying to bring Terry a few drops of water.
DRINKING WATER OUT OF A BOTTLE is not considered life support by any court in the world, and its definitely not ARTIFICIAL LIFE SUPPORT.
Any court that forbids giving water to a invalid woman is basically COMMITTING MURDER.
The only other time I ever heard of such despicable inhumane acts was in AUSCHWITZ!!!! |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:24 pm Post subject: |
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This case has inflamed people and passions on both sides.
Comments made about Schiavo needing to fry - I see those as being similar to the comments made about the fate of the kind of monsters who have recently kidnapped and brutalized and murdered two little girls.
This IS murder, to some of us.
All the more horrific because this MURDER is happening with the full sanction our judiciary, Michael Schiavo's full accomplices.
A little perspective is in order. You're complaining about the level of rhetoric. We're complaining about a string of human rights abuses that lead to MURDER.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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Fort Campbell,
Sorry you've been offended. The rhetoric has been over the top on both sides of this issue. I can't understand abortion clinic bombers anymore than the ghouls with rapturous talk of starvation (including one whack job who said the Pope has hung around too long).
There was a famous case of a Londoner who publicly flogged his wife in the 1880s and Common Law was powerless to stop or punish the act. What's bizarre? If you starved your dog in Pinellas you'ld go to jail and the Humane Society would take custody of the animal.
I'm not against ending a terminal situation. I've had family members unplugged (dialysis and oxygen) which lead to a grizzly, 45 minute death. Why can't humans be accorded the humane injections that have put my aged dogs to sleep. Why not a humane act of commission instead of the cruel act of omission?
An aging Boomer, I am concerned about the subjects raised beyond the specifics of this case. Trusting no one will read my 'living will'; will I have to pull a Hunter Thompson, will I be able to pull a Hunter Thompson before I'm surrendered to medical protocols and legal obfuscation? |
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SBD
Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 1022
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:34 pm Post subject: |
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Fort Campbell,
Thank you for the ever inciteful post and I respect your opinion. I agree that the current law regarding next of kin clearly puts the husband in that roll. In most cases, this is how it should be where a husband and wife have started a family, but as the saying goes, "Blood is always thicker than water". I think that my parents who raised me for over 25 years would know what I would have wanted rather than my spouse which only knew me for a few years.
I have recently been through several deaths of both friends and family. In fact, I will be attending 3 funerals this week alone. Today's funeral is for my sister-in-law's aunt who I knew well. She died from Leukemia after much suffering. The reason I bring this up is because her husband was asked a few days ago to pull the plug on her and let her die. The doctors said that she was gone and the only thing that was still alive was her heart. He decided to go through with it, but kept delaying the final decision. The doctor kept asking every few hours if he was ready until he came back the last time and said she was about to go on her own soon. The family all went into her room and stayed with her watching her heart monitor slowly begin to stop until the point when it did stop. At that point, she opened her eyes and looked at everybody in the room one last time, then closed her eyes and passed with a smile on her face. She had been in a coma for over a week until that last moment.
Last month, my aunt passed away from cancer. She was supposed to have died five years ago, but she fought with all that she had. I must say that I had no idea the magnitude of watching the suffering of someone with cancer would entail. I saw a once strong woman whither away to a skeleton because she could no longer eat. The cancer was eating away at her body, but in the end, I think she actually died from starvation. My uncle stayed up all night making sure she was comfortable, giving her water, making sure her lips were moist and feeding her ice cubes. She was on morphine for the pain, but it wasn't enough to subdue the pain. Watching someone basically starve to death was the most horrific experience I have ever been through but at least my aunt had the loving care of my uncle and our family at her side through out the entire experience.
They are starving Terri to death and the only people by her side are police officers making sure no one even tries to feed her ice cubes or moisten her lips.
That is just wrong.
SBD |
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RogerRabbit
Master Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 748
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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Just can't trust somebody who cannot keep their promise
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"Si vis pacem, para bellum" |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| tony54 wrote: | If you were happily married and by some freak accident you became paralyzed and bedridden in a hospital, but you could talk and listen.
Then after five years of assuming you had a loving husband you were told he moved in with another woman and had 2 kids with her.
Would you still have him control your final wishes?
Would you still consider him you loving spouse?
Would you let him manage the money you received in a malpractice suit?
Would you let him pay for an attorney that was trying to en your life out of your money that was awarded you for rehab?
Or would you rather have your loving parents take over your care?
Their have been numerous people and kids arrested not because they wanted to reinsert the tube, but because they were trying to bring Terry a few drops of water.
DRINKING WATER OUT OF A BOTTLE is not considered life support by any court in the world, and its definitely not ARTIFICIAL LIFE SUPPORT.
Any court that forbids giving water to a invalid woman is basically COMMITTING MURDER.
The only other time I ever heard of such despicable inhumane acts was in AUSCHWITZ!!!! |
Thank you! There is no comparison between the two cases you bring up here Fort Campbell. Each should be looked at individually. If I am terminally ill, in a vegative state, I have no problem dying, but I have a problem being starved to death. You would be prosecuted for this if it was an animal this had been done to. No excuses, as a Christian it is against all Biblical teachings. It is God who gives life and God who takes life...who are we to decide when someone is not a viable valuable human being? That is real Christian like...what man wants before what God says in His word. My father lived in Europe during WW11, this is what the Nazi's did to the retarted and disabled. I would hate to think we are repeating history, but my Father said it has begun. God help us.
BTW Fox News reported today that the Congress will seek to impeach the Judges in the 11th Circuit Court. Since when are judges allowed to rule on heresay seven years after the fact and not allow all evidence to be presented? Since when can these Justices snub the senate and congress who put the laws they are to uphold in the face when they were appointed? It is wrong. It is time we take our country back from the immoral and bring accountability and morals back...which is what our founding fathers based this country on, oh yeah, and on the Bible to, to all those that profess to be Chrisians, REALLY READ THE BIBLE. Thank God the Pope is in Italy....God forbid he lived in the US...they would want to pull his feeding tube! Yes this is so much like what happened during WWII and my father lives to tell it and lives to see it begin happening again. It hurt me to hear how he cried.  |
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kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 7:44 am Post subject: |
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Doll, touching comments about your Dad. We can not imagine the horror of what the eyes of those from that generation have seen.
My Dad never spoke of what horrors he saw in Germany, when his '14th' liberated 250,000+ souls.
reflection on the words of Pastor Martin Niemöller
| Quote: | First They Came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me. |
have seen several moderized verisions floating around the net, ie
| Quote: | First they came for the unborn,
and I was unconcerned because I had already been born.
Then they came for the deformed and defective
and I was unconcerned because I was normal.
Then they came for the elderly and infirm
and I was unconcerned because I was young and healthy.
Then they came for Terri because she was disabled and helpless.
I was unconcerned because I was awake and aware . . . .
And so it goes until they come for me |
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one of..... We The People |
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Guest
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| Posted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 10:17 pm Post subject: |
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| What you quoted Kate is so very true....by the grace of God go I. |
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Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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Admin slapped my hands so I withdraw from this discussion.
God Speed
Last edited by Fort Campbell on Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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tony54
PO2
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
Posts: 369
Location: cleveland, ohio
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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I agree with most of what you said but:
Even if Terri had said she didn't want to live on life support,
The feeding tube was not considered life support in the state of Florida till 1999 when Felos and Schiavo petitioned the Florida legislature to include the feeding tube in "life support measures", I wonder why they did that!
Also, no country in the world prohibits a person on a death bed from food or water, and Judge Greer did just that when he ordered the feeding tube removed he also ordered no water orally, he had no authority to do that.
Felos and Schiavo wanted to end Terri's life in the worst way, even if it meant breaking the law to do so, and they did. |
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Fort Campbell
Vice Admiral
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 896
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| Posted: Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Terri Schiavo - Opening The Eyes of a Conservative |
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Admin slapped my hands so I withdraw from this discussion.
God Speed |
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