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jim1982
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 2
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 Posted: Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:44 pm Post subject: hi swift forum |
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hi this is my firt post here as you can see, and i was wondering, do swiftee veterans really think that atrocities never really happend in vietnam? Or is it that kerry was too over the top with what he was saying about them? thanks for you time and any info will help.
--"This is what you've been waiting for - search and destroy - and you've got it."
Lt. William Calleys first words before entering My Lai-- |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 12:25 am Post subject: |
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Welcome aboard.
We've had many discussions here regarding war atrocities.
Please feel free to browse or search our conversations and if there's something that isn't clear, we'd be happy to answer specific questions.
A current discussion in the geedunk involves this question:
http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19165
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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LewWaters
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Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 1:01 am Post subject: |
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Jim, no one has ever said that atrocities never happened in Viet Nam. But, sKerry testified to false charges of daily atrocities taking place with approval of higher command. His exact words were:
| Quote: | I would like to talk, representing all those veterans, and say that several months ago in Detroit, we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans (several of these "veterans" were subsequently shown to have either never served in Vietnam, never served in the military or their service was not what they claimed. One has come forward and signed an affadavit reporting Kerry's actions forcing him to lie about atrocities) testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia (Congress ordered a full investigation by Naval Intelligence into these claims. Although all were offered amnesty, not one would support these claims and like was said above, several were not even veterans. Read Stolen Valor by B.G. Burkett), not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.
They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. (again, these calims could not ever be supported)
...The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history;...
...there is nothing in South Vietnam, nothing which could happen that realistically threatens the United States of America. And to attempt to justify the loss of one American life in Vietnam, Cambodia, or Laos by linking such loss to the preservation of freedom,... (did he forget the Southeast Asia Treaty? Much like NATO, we promised to help nations preserve their freedom against the spread of Communism. After the fall of Saigon in April of 1975, millions of Vietnamese, Cambodians and Laotians were slaughtered, thousands died fleeing South Viet Nam in boats and any other way they could.)
We saw that many people in this country had a one-sided idea of who was kept free by our flag, as blacks provided the highest percentage of casualties. (a blatant lie.) Subsequent studies showed 86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races. (3)and (5)
Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler, in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue. Black fatalities amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia - a figure proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. population at the time and slightly lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the war." (4)
3. [CACF] (Combat Area Casualty File) November 1993. (The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, i.e. The Wall), Center for Electronic Records, National Archives, Washington, DC
4. [All That We Can Be] All That We Can Be by Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler
5. [Westmoreland] Speech by General William C. Westmoreland before the Third Annual Reunion of the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association (VHPA) at the Washington, DC Hilton Hotel on July 5th, 1986 (reproduced in a Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association Historical Reference Directory Volume 2A)
We saw America lose her sense of morality as she accepted very coolly a My Lai and refused to give up the image of American soldiers who hand out chocolate bars and chewing gum. (uh, did he somehow miss the trial of Lt. Calley for this atrocity? Did he also miss out that it was an American Helicopter crew that saw what was happening and landed between the soldiers and the Vietnamese villagers and put a stop to it?)
We learned the meaning of free fire zones, shooting anything that moves, and we watched while America placed a cheapness on the lives of orientals. (a total misrepresentation of what "free fire zones" were. As for who placed a cheapness on Oriental lives, who encouraged abandoning them to Communism and oppression?)
We watched the U.S. falsification of body counts, in fact the glorification of body counts. We listened while month after month we were told the back of the enemy was about to break. (subsequent publications by General Vo Ngyuen Giap and Colonel Bui Tin have both admitted that they were willing to sacrifice as many lives as they had to win. Both have also admitted they were ready to negotiate a surrender after their defeat in Tet of 68, but saw the anti-war left claims that they had won Tet and afterwards, fed the anti-war left propaganda to continue turning public opoinion against the war effort. In effect, the anti-war left prolonged the war by 5 years costing almost 40,000 more American lives and untold numbers of Vietnamese.)
Now we are told that the men who fought there must watch quietly while American lives are lost so that we can exercise the incredible arrogance of Vietnamizing the Vietnamese. (more misrepresentation. Vietnamization was arming and training and supporting Vietnamese forces to take over the war and allow Americans to withdraw, as being demanded by the anti-war left. According to both Giap and Tin above, it wouldn't have been necessary at all, except for the unrest from the anti-war left) |
I'll stop picking apart his 1971 testimony there, since there are over 25 more pages to go. But, that should give you some idea of why almost 90% of Viet Nam veterans opposed his candidacy.
Since you ask about atrocities, please look up the atrocity of Hue and compare it to My Lai.
I am curious as to your signature quote. Can you supply us a documentation to it, or is it something you just heard?
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LewWaters
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Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:59 am Post subject: |
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Jim, here is a letter I ran across at a blog that you and some others may find interesting;
| Quote: | As I have mentioned before in a previous note, your article is spotless. I can only add few more facts are well known within the Vietnamese but rarely known from the outside world for whatever the reason.
1) During the repatriated period of 1956, the North had exercised maximum control to restrict the movement of people migrating to the South. In large cities near the port of Haiphong, where foreign observers were present, movement was fairly unrestricted but outside those cities, movement was utterly restricted. You could not leave your town or village without a pass by a VC high ranking official, and it's almost impossible to get that pass. My parent-in-law left the town in Thai-Binh province outside of the foreign observer's watch, by a note from my mother-in-law's brother who was a very high ranking VC official asking her and her family come to visit him. Only then the local officials allowed them to leave.
2) In the South, in the area where they controlled, the VC staged a force marriage en mass to marry local woman with the repatriated soldiers. Their purpose is to impregnated woman to establish a family relationship for the fathers to coming back later in the insurgency period.
3) South Vietnam has never had a chance to have a good government. In all fairness, Diem's government is the least corrupted government. His downfall started when he began to "cap" the reformists as VC. Many reformists were not the VC and were also religious leaders of Buddhists, CaoDai and HoaHao. When he started capping the Buddhist leaders, the **** hits the fan. My wife's 1st cousin is the famous girl being killed at Saigon protesting Diem's regime and her statue was erected afterward in middle of Saigon capital. Her death is the final call to arm to Buddhists in Vietnam, considering more than 80% of the population is Buddhists. Few months later, Diem was overthrown and the country was falling in even deeper ****.
We, the principle soldiers of South Vietnam, did the right thing to defend our freedom, with your help, the principle soldiers of America. Losing that war is nothing to be ashamed. Our battle was staged utterly wrong from the beginning and spiraled down the slippery slope. You and your comrade in arm have never betrayed us. We fought for the right thing side by side, and losing that war did not negate our principles. We are forever in debt for your blood and suffering.
Your friend,
Lan Nguyen
A proud South Vietnam Aviator fighting alongside you guys to the bitter end. |
The history he is responding too can be found here: http://www.tinyvital.com/BlogArchives/000354.html
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jim1982
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 26 Apr 2005
Posts: 2
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| Posted: Wed Apr 27, 2005 4:51 am Post subject: |
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| wow thanks a lot for you replies guys |
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