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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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 Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 1:36 pm Post subject: Lt. Pantano Hearing (update- Col. Winn's Decision) |
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yahoo.com/news
| Quote: | Defense Witnesses Say Marine Model Officer
By WILLIAM L. HOLMES, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 39 minutes ago
CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. - A Marine accused of murdering two Iraqi detainees was a zealous worker but never abusive, witnesses said at a pretrial hearing.
Two witnesses testified Thursday that 2nd Lt. Ilario Pantano was widely respected within his unit, yet several jokingly referred to him as "motardivated" — Marine slang for colleagues motivated to the point of mental retardation.
The Article 32 hearing, the military equivalent of a civilian grand jury, will help determine whether Pantano, 33, will face a court-martial. If convicted, he could get the death penalty.
"He's a great Marine," testified former Marine Martin McPherson, who served under Pantano in Iraq. "He had the attention to detail you need to bring back your men alive. He knew exactly what he needed to do, and he did it."
Pantano, a former Wall Street trader who rejoined the Marines after the Sept. 11 attacks, has said he shot the detainees in self-defense during an April 2004 search outside a suspected terrorist hideout in Iraq. He says the men had moved toward him in a threatening manner.
Prosecutors have introduced testimony that Pantano believed the men were insurgents who had attacked his unit, but had been ordered to release them.
Six Marines or former Marines who served with Pantano in Iraq praised him as an able leader who remained cool in combat, amiable with Iraqi nationals and protective of his troops. Pantano wiped away tears at one point during the testimony.
Five of the six Marines also heaped scorn on Pantano's chief accuser, Sgt. Daniel Coburn, a 10-year veteran. They described him as a weak Marine who's bitter about Pantano removing him from a leadership role within his platoon and making him a radioman, a job usually reserved for the youngest Marines.
Coburn is expected to return to the stand Friday. The sergeant abruptly left the stand Wednesday after investigating officer Maj. Mark E. Winn accused him of giving interviews about the case when he was ordered not to.
Military prosecutors have said they do not intend to charge Coburn, Winn said. Coburn has informed Marine officials he won't return to the stand unless he is granted immunity from prosecution.
Another witness, Cpl. Spencer Stringham, recalled Thursday that Pantano mockingly threatened to kill an Iraqi detainee who had feigned an inability to speak English. The man ultimately asked Pantano — in English — not to shoot him.
Stringham also recalled Pantano ordering a pair of detainees to roll off the back of a moving Humvee. He acknowledged under cross-examination that he never considered Pantano's behavior abusive. |
shawa ..edited thread title/kate
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Another witness, Cpl. Spencer Stringham, recalled Thursday that Pantano mockingly threatened to kill an Iraqi detainee who had feigned an inability to speak English. The man ultimately asked Pantano — in English — not to shoot him.
Stringham also recalled Pantano ordering a pair of detainees to roll off the back of a moving Humvee. He acknowledged under cross-examination that he never considered Pantano's behavior abusive. |
So then why bring it up?! |
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AMOS
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 30 Jul 2004
Posts: 558
Location: IOWA
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| Posted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 2:40 pm Post subject: Crapola |
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| This case against Pantano is a load of crap. Makes me wonder if the military will ever be able to figure out why they have trouble meeting their recruiting quotas. |
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 1:54 am Post subject: |
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Did anyone see this story in New York Magazine last week?
It's a long (7pages) interview with Pantano and a small
interview with Coburn, his accuser.
I was particularly interested in learning more about Sgt. Coburn--
What was his grudge against Sgt. Pantano??
Exerpt:
| Quote: | When Pantano’s platoon had arrived in Iraq the previous month, Sergeant Coburn had been in charge of one of its three squads. “Coburn was a nice guy,” said Staff Sergeant Glew, the senior sergeant. Coburn had been a Marine for close to nine years, but leading men in war probably wasn’t what best suited his talents. “He seemed kind of weak,” said a squad member, who recalled Coburn being nonplussed at incoming mortars.
To Coburn, the problem was mainly a style issue. He didn’t like to yell. “In the infantry, you get looked down upon if you’re not a yeller,” says Coburn. Among officers, though, Coburn’s problem was also one of judgment. His performance was widely considered marginal—a company captain said it; other lieutenants in the company knew it. Sergeant Glew used the word “incompetent.” And Pantano hovered nearby, micromanaging.
“He’d always ask me,” says Coburn, referring to Pantano, “ ‘Hey, how you doing? You okay? Any problems?’ ”
Leave me alone! thought Coburn.
Listening to Pantano and Coburn, it could seem as if they were fighting in different wars. Coburn’s war, like his personality, was milder. “We’re over there to get them on our side, not to show our muscle and smack them around,” he says even today. “That was our mission: Go over there, shake hands, give candy to the kids, try to help out the Iraqi people.”
Coburn didn’t really get Pantano and his 9/11 fervor. “One of those thespian-type people,” Coburn says. To Coburn, it almost seemed that the enemy materialized only when Pantano was around, as if perhaps his zeal attracted them.
Coburn wasn’t entirely wrong. On patrol, Pantano would sometimes fire in the air to draw the enemy out, then fight his way back. “Often you’re walking a beat, getting hit, responding,” Pantano says. “In essence, [you have] to be the walking ambush . . . You almost ask to be attacked.”
Not Coburn. Coburn wasn’t in a firefight in Iraq. He doubted he’d killed anybody. He thought he fired his weapon once. “We were taking fire, and I just tried to aim at . . . tried to find a target to shoot at,” he says. “I just started shooting.”
One day on patrol, Coburn’s squad stopped for a break. There’d been enemy activity in the area. His guys were taking off their helmets within sight of unsearched buildings. “Men follow men into combat because they believe that they can keep them alive,” Pantano believes, and kind of flipped out. “Pantano is going to do it right,” explains one officer. “He has no sympathy for someone who’s not up there. He doesn’t take it easy on anybody.”
Pantano called the squad in. Why hadn’t Coburn posted security? Coburn told him the buildings had been checked yesterday. “You’re ******* fired,” Pantano recalls telling Coburn. “We’re parked in the middle of a kill box,” he told the squad. “It’s a miracle that we’re not all in a bag right now.”
Pantano and Sergeant Glew talked it over. “We could have very easily told the company commander he was incompetent as a sergeant and requested a reduction in rank,” says Glew. “We gave him the benefit of the doubt because he still gave his all, he still had good intentions.” So Coburn was reassigned. He might not be a warrior, an emasculating fact in this tribe; still, he was smart. He’d be the radio operator, tagging along with the medic and Pantano.
Coburn would later say that he was transferred to radio operator to help out with a platoon problem. “I went to the radio ’cause . . . I knew what I was doing on the radio,” Coburn says. “If I got fired . . . it didn’t sound like it to me.” But every Marine knows that radio operator is a job two or three pay grades below sergeant. |
and another:
| Quote: | Coburn has a pretty clear idea of himself. He’d like to transfer out of the infantry. He prefers to work on his own—“something that will complement my personality better,” he says. He wants the kind of job where, as he put it, “nobody’s going, ‘I want this done now.’ ” Coburn prefers a job where, as he explained, “I’m doing something because I want to do it. I don’t like to be told to do something when I’m already doing something.”
Standing in Coburn’s way are two negative evaluations of him initially written by Pantano. One covers a period before the incident. Another, the more severe, was written after. “In the unforgiving classroom of combat operations he was extended myriad opportunities to learn and to grow,” says that second evaluation. “Instead of developing, the opposite occurred and now he is solely responsible for managing the radio.”
Coburn sits straight as a chair. “It’s a career-ender,” he says. Coburn is trying to get the bad paper—both of the evaluations—removed from his file, which is possible, particularly if the judgment of the officer doing the evaluation or the circumstances surrounding it are in question. “They’re saying things about me that aren’t true,” Coburn says. “They all think that I’m the guy with a grudge on my shoulder,” says Coburn. “I got fired so I’m blaming him for something that didn’t happen. Whatever.” |
Read the full article at:
http://newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/people/features/11774
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 3:16 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Coburn has informed Marine officials he won't return to the stand unless he is granted immunity from prosecution. |
Now that is telling. What charges is he afraid of?
Giving false witness, perhaps? Perjury? Conduct unbecoming? Refusing to follow lawful orders? What is up his sleeve?
It is, indeed, looking more like a grudge match with every story I read. 
| Quote: | | Coburn: He prefers to work on his own—“something that will complement my personality better,” he says. |
Oh, gag! It's the USMC, for heaven's sake, not a prep school!  Give me a %#$& break! 
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 4:45 am Post subject: |
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The Hearing has concluded.
This blogger has written a lot about the hearing:
http://euphoria.jarkolicious.com/journal/category/2-lt-ilario-pantano/
| Quote: | | ~snip~The Article 32 hearing of 2 Lt. Ilario Pantano wrapped up Saturday with perhaps more questions than when it started. The prosecution’s chief witness, Sgt. Daniel Coburn, performed poorly on cross-examination, giving yet another version of the events that contradicted several already problematic statements. Perjuring himself on more than one occasion, Coburn first denied that he had made statements to the media or posted on blogs; but in a stunning move, defense attorney Charles Gittins produced a few bombshells: The entire transcript of an interview Coburn did with Steve Fishman, an editor for New York Magazine, and a page from this blog showing the comments he made. Coburn finally admitted that he had in fact done the interviews, and that he had made the statements he was quoted as saying; including that Pantano was “kind of gay”. Testimony from his company commander and fellow Marines showed Coburn to be unintelligent, arrogrant, cowardly, and on a level far below that of the minimum performance standards set by the Marine Corps. Coburn admitted to violating direct orders not to talk about the case, and even stated that he wasn’t “really paying attention” to the orders as they were given. When asked about a letter to his wife written a few days after the incident, Coburn stated he didn’t realize at the time the letter would be used later in a hearing, implying that had he known, his version would have been different. Indeed, the second half of Coburn’s testimony was only obtained after special immunity, requested by the defense, was given to him. Without it, Coburn refused to re-take the stand after having his testimony halted and being apprised of his rights due to incriminating statements he was making....~snip~ |
I really like this blogger!! I just stumbled onto him when googling for
the New York Magazine article.
I'm going back to his site to find the
comments that Coburn posted there. More lies?????
Must be, if it was used against Coburn by Pantano's lawyer.
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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DLI78
PO3
Joined: 10 Nov 2004
Posts: 273
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| Posted: Wed May 04, 2005 6:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | He wants the kind of job where, as he put it, “nobody’s going, ‘I want this done now.’ ” Coburn prefers a job where, as he explained, “I’m doing something because I want to do it. I don’t like to be told to do something when I’m already doing something.” |
Well, let's see. There's bus driver, taxi driver, unarmed security guard.... Um, that's about it. Security guard sounds about right. You go to a parking lot. You yell, "Stay! Play Dead!" You watch that parking lot for 8 hours. It doesn't move. All secure. You go home.
| Quote: | | "I don’t like to be told to do something when I’m already doing something.” |
Well, you could try doing it faster, you know?
_________________
DLI 78
Army Linguist
1978-1986 |
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KitJarrell
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | I really like this blogger!! I just stumbled onto him when googling for
the New York Magazine article.
I'm going back to his site to find the
comments that Coburn posted there. More lies?????
Must be, if it was used against Coburn by Pantano's lawyer. |
Just for you:
http://euphoria.jarkolicious.com/journal/2005/03/19/160/
It's my blog, and I truly appreciate the kind words. God knows that this has been horrifying for Pantano, and I'm glad I can help get the word out for him. I've had the opportunity to exchange a few emails with him, and let me just say that he is an incredibly inspiring individual. Has more class in his little finger than Coburn has in his entire body.
At any rate, I post developments in the Pantano case within minutes of their being released; and Pantano and his lawyer have agreed to be interviewed by me when this is over, so stay tuned.
And feel free to drop by to visit anytime - I have, unfortunately, a few trolls that could use a good vet beating. 
Have a great day!
oh, and PS: I'm a "she". |
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Rdtf
CNO
Joined: 13 May 2004
Posts: 2209
Location: BUSHville
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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Welcome Kitjarrell!!!
By the way - I read the link you just provided, revealing how Coburn had been posting crapola on your blog for a while - have you tried to alert Pantano's lawyer to it? - There could be a lot of ammo there to prove his motives!!
Keep up the good (no - GREAT!) work! |
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KitJarrell
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 05 May 2005
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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Actually, I alerted them right away.
http://euphoria.jarkolicious.com/journal/category/2-lt-ilario-pantano/
There's a lot of links on my blog covering the hearing, but that one wraps everything up.
Pantano's lawyers asked to fax them a copy of the parts of my blog where he commented, and then confronted him with the information on the stand. At first Coburn denied it, but he ended up admitting that he did in fact make the comments.
He's quite a piece of work. If you read the NY Metro story, you'll see a lot fo things he says and you just wonder how the ---- he stayed a Marine for 10 years. My husband is a Marine, and bringing up Coburn's name around him is like flipping a profanity switch. |
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Thu May 05, 2005 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Kit, sorry for the 'gender' error.
I went back and spent time exploring your Blog last night, and saw
one of your comments (referring to your husband being a Marine)
and realized my error. I should have corrected my post here. Sorry.
I also noted your support for Terri Schiavo. Wish I had discovered you
long ago. It's a GREAT BLOG!!! I'll be visiting often!!
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Fri May 13, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject: |
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Drop murder charges, Pantano prober urges
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Exclusive
| Quote: | An investigating officer has recommended that the Marine Corps drop murder charges against 2nd Lt. Ilario Pantano, who shot to death two Iraqi insurgents a year ago during a raid on an insurgent hideout in the "Triangle of Death."
The 16-page report from Lt. Col. Mark E. Winn castigates as unreliable the prosecution's chief witness, Sgt. Daniel L. Coburn, whom Lt. Pantano had removed as squad leader weeks before the April 15, 2004 shooting. |
| Quote: | Col. Winn recommended to Maj. Gen. Richard Huck that all criminal charges be dropped, including murder and destruction of the Iraqis' vehicle.
Col. Winn recommended that Lt. Pantano face administration punishment for firing too many rounds at the two men.
Gen. Huck can accept the recommendations or overrule them and order a court-martial of Lt. Pantano. |
full story hereWashingtonTimes
> to the military types, what's the firing too many rounds all about....felt they had to come up with some charge?
_________________
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one of..... We The People |
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 12:31 am Post subject: |
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This great news!!
KitJarrell is posting all information at her site:
http://euphoria.jarkolicious.com/journal/2005/05/13/345/
| Quote: | 2 Lt. Ilario Pantano did not commit murder, and Sgt. Daniel Coburn is clueless.
That’s the nutshell version of Maj Mark Winn’s opinion, given in a 16-page report that I will be posting later today.
The key findings of the report were posted at Defendthedefenders.
That the Government offered no credible evidence to contradict Lt Pantano’s statement that he acted in self defense in response to a hostile act;
That Lt Pantano’s shooting of the two Iraqis was justified in accordance with the then-prevailing Rules of Engagement;
That there was no credible evidence that Lt Pantano acted with premeditation;
That Lt Pantano was not derelict in his duties in the handling of Iraqi prisoners;
That Lt Pantano’s use of the “No Better Friend, No Worse Enemy was poor judgment but not criminal and not conduct unbecoming an officer; and,
That Lt Pantano did not act in a manner unbecoming an officer in his handling of the Iraqi prisoners.
However, Maj. Winn did not believe that Pantano acted 100% blamelessly in all areas. He did find that the number of rounds expended was excessive, and due to this only, recommended that Pantano receive non-judicial punishment for conduct unbecoming an officer. [Note: It is interesting that he recommended that, since Pantano was not even charged with this originally.]
Again, when I get the report I’ll post it in its entirety.
- Drudge Report coverage.
- Michelle Malkin has an article that mentions Euphoric Reality’s role in the case.
- The idiot at the AP has another story on the case, and yes, he still thinks Pantano fired because he thought the two men were “launching mortars”. |
You can click on all the links at her site.
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 1:22 am Post subject: |
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I know I should just be grateful for the fact that LT Pantano was absolved of the crimes of which he was accused, but I'm wondering why there was a recommendation that he stand further charges for what seems to be such an inconsequential thing?
I'm not saying that the judge was wrong - I don't know enough about it to say, one way or the other. But is overuse of ammunition sort of a crappy little charge? (I'm asking honestly - I don't understand the basis for it.)
Is this a way to get him on SOMETHING, since the harsher charges were not proven, or is this a way of showing the media that military justice isn't as completely inadequate as they portray it or something else? I don't get it. 
In the meantime:
Thank Heavens the LT has been exhonerated!
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Sat May 14, 2005 3:10 am Post subject: |
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From Kit Jarrell at Euphoric Reality:
| Quote: | As promised, I have a copy of the Article 32 report.
It’s what we’ve all been waiting for - a detailed account of the happenings that takes into evidence all the statements given. It’s a story of Hollywood proportions, and filled with the kind of intrigue that those of us familiar with the case have come to expect.
Certainly the most amusing parts of the report deal with Sgt Daniel Coburn and his numerous attempts to pick a story that would get Pantano in the most trouble. His lack of integrity was not lost on Winn, who states: |
Read it all at:
http://euphoria.jarkolicious.com/journal/2005/05/13/348/#more-348
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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