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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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 Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:31 am Post subject: NY Times Star Wars Review |
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http://movies2.nytimes.com/2005/05/16/movies/16star.html
This is the part I have a problem with,
| Quote: | | "This is how liberty dies - to thunderous applause," Padmé observes as senators, their fears and dreams of glory deftly manipulated by Palpatine, vote to give him sweeping new powers. "Revenge of the Sith" is about how a republic dismantles its own democratic principles, about how politics becomes militarized, about how a Manichaean ideology undermines the rational exercise of power. Mr. Lucas is clearly jabbing his light saber in the direction of some real-world political leaders. At one point, Darth Vader, already deep in the thrall of the dark side and echoing the words of George W. Bush, hisses at Obi-Wan, "If you're not with me, you're my enemy." Obi-Wan's response is likely to surface as a bumper sticker during the next election campaign: "Only a Sith thinks in absolutes." You may applaud this editorializing, or you may find it overwrought, but give Mr. Lucas his due. For decades he has been blamed (unjustly) for helping to lead American movies away from their early-70's engagement with political matters, and he deserves credit for trying to bring them back. |
Thomas Jefferson on July 4, 1776 wrote the declaration of independance.
Quote,
| Quote: | We hold these truths to be self–evident,
That all men are created equal,
That they are endowed by their Creator
with certain unalienable Rights,
That among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.–
That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
Deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. |
Dr. John C. Munday Jr,
http://www.avantrex.com/essay/freetalk.html
| Quote: | In 1772, four years before the Declaration was signed, Samuel Adams wrote a short piece entitled “Rights of the Colonists as Men”. His words included the following:
Among the natural rights of the Colonists are these:
First, a right to life; Secondly, to liberty; Thirdly, to property;
together with the right to support and defend them
in the best manner they can. These are evident branches of,
rather than deductions from, the duty of self–preservation,
commonly called the first law of nature. All men have a right
to remain in a state of nature as long as they please;
and in case of intolerable oppression, civil or religious,
to leave the society they belong to, and enter into another.
When men enter into society, it is by voluntary consent.…
Every natural right not expressly given up, or, from the
nature of a social compact, necessarily ceded, remains.
All positive and civil laws should conform, as far as possible,
to the law of natural reason and equity. As neither reason requires
nor religion permits the contrary, every man living in or out of
a state of civil society has a right peaceably and quietly
to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience.
In case this excerpt is not sufficiently explicit concerning the origin of the rights so mentioned, further words from this same piece by Samuel Adams will make the point more clearly:
Just and true liberty, equal and impartial liberty,
in matters spiritual and temporal, is a thing that all men
are clearly entitled to by the eternal and immutable
laws of God and nature, as well as by the law of nations
and all well–grounded municipal laws,
which must have their foundation in the former...
The natural liberty of man is to be free from any
superior power on earth, and not to be under the will
or legislative authority of man,
but only to have the law of nature for his rule. |
In conclusion, our founding fathers understood liberty to come after life and that both were rights granted by God. They also understood absolutes as determined by natural law as governed by Judeo-Christian belief and not the libertine fantasies of the NY Times, Padme or G. Lucas. Why the left continues to dream of no absolutes and Liberty as a counter to current conservative actions is both naive and dangerous. If someone looks back in history at how facist, totalitarian and communist governments form they all start with a utopian libertarian appeal absent natural law as defined by Judeo-Christian belief.
Wonder if Natalie Portman knows that Pol Pot took the illiterate Khmer Rouge young and dumb and promised them with liberty. What ensued was the wholesale slaughter of a country by a minority who had no belief in something greater then their leader who filled them with Michael Moore proletariat BS.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:42 am Post subject: |
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GenXr, you got to remember, the movie comes out of Bush hating leftwinged Hollyweird. They have been producing more propaganda movies over the past decades than we realize. Think of the movies that come out during election years and you will always find one or more bashing right wing conservatives and values.
For me, I doubt I will go see it.
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Clark County Conservative |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: | GenXr, you got to remember, the movie comes out of Bush hating leftwinged Hollyweird. They have been producing more propaganda movies over the past decades than we realize. Think of the movies that come out during election years and you will always find one or more bashing right wing conservatives and values.
For me, I doubt I will go see it. |
Lew I love Star Wars though,
It really pisses me off G. Lucas had to get political in this movie. America has always been founded upon our main principle of Freedom as defined by natural law as opposed to Frances founding principle of Liberty.
I have a freedom to live as opposed to your libertine right to shoot me dead, yet the Left has been brainwashed by radicals into a demented way of thinking.
And they had to do it in Star Wars. grrr
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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GoophyDog
PO1
Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 480
Location: Washington - The Evergreen State
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 6:30 am Post subject: |
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Genxr, its much more subtle than that and perhaps if applied in this light your trust can be restored:
A federation of united planets fail to act when one-by-one planets are attacked and absorbed by the "dark side". The enemy uses all sort of dirty tricks and such to win.
Now, turn the clock back and reflect on the actual first Star Wars movies where the apathy of the citizenry is turned around by bold action and a coilition of freedom seekers who unite to overthrow the oppressive rule.
Hmmm, now does it sound more familiar and perhaps in a different light? If taken in the order Lucas invisioned, you could virtually plug the whole series into to our time-frame beginning in 1993 to present. Haven't won yet but the idea is there. Hopefully we won't take two steps back and fall once again into apathy.
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Why ask? Because it needs asking. |
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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An interview with George Lucas.
IMHO, Lucas sounds like another Michael Moore, only more finessed and talented.
I am sure the movie will be a big success, but I will not contribute the
price of a ticket to watch subliminal propaganda.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5194283-103690,00.html
| Quote: | Final Star Wars bears message for America
Lucas wins festival trophy - and hopes his epic will awaken US to democracy in peril
Charlotte Higgins in Cannes
Monday May 16, 2005
Guardian
The republic is crumbling under attack from alien forces. Democracy is threatened as the leader plays on the people's paranoia. Amid the confusion it is suddenly unclear whether the state is in more danger from insurgents, or from the leader himself.
It sounds more like a Michael Moore polemic than a Star Wars movie. But George Lucas, speaking as his latest epic was given its world premiere at Cannes yesterday, confirmed that Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith, could be read as a parable about American politics.
When he conceived his series of films in the 1970s, he says, he was thinking about Vietnam and Nixon, investigating "democracy, and how a senate could give itself over, could surrender itself to a dictator".
He found historical echoes down the ages. "I looked at ancient Rome, and how, having got rid of kings, the Senate ended up with Caesar's nephew as emperor ... how democracy turns itself into a dictatorship. I also looked at revolutionary France ... and Hitler.
"It tends to follow similar patterns. Threats from outside leading to the need for more control; democracy not being able to function properly because of internal squabbling."
"I hope that situation never arises in our country," he said. "Maybe the film will awaken people to this danger."
Asked whether Star Wars Episode III openly alluded to the Iraq war, he said: "When I wrote it Iraq didn't exist. We were funding Saddam Hussein and giving him weapons of mass destruction. We were going after Iran. But the parallels between what we did in Vietnam and what we are doing in Iraq are unbelievable."
Lucas yesterday received, amid enormous hoopla, one of the highest honours Cannes can bestow: the Trophy of the Festival, which he was awarded on the world's largest ocean liner, the Queen Mary 2.
His film was screened out of competition at Cannes before its London premiere tonight. Lucas said: "I am happy the film doesn't have to compete [for the Palme D'Or], because it probably wouldn't win."
But he was bullish about the tepid critical reception of the more recent Star Wars films.
"I see it all as one movie; I don't pay much attention whether people like individual chapters or not," he said.
"There are two groups of fans for my films: one group over 25, and the other under 25. The people in their 30s and 40s love the first three, and they are in control of the media and the web.
"The more recent ones are fantastically adored by people under 25 and the devotion of each group is about equal ... but one group can express themselves more loudly than the others.
"It will be interesting to see what happens in 10 years when the younger group has grown older." |
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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nccjones
Ensign
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Virginia Beach
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| Posted: Mon May 16, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="GenrXr"] | LewWaters wrote: |
It really pisses me off G. Lucas had to get political in this movie. America has always been founded upon our main principle of Freedom as defined by natural law as opposed to Frances founding principle of Liberty.
I have a freedom to live as opposed to your libertine right to shoot me dead, yet the Left has been brainwashed by radicals into a demented way of thinking.
And they had to do it in Star Wars. grrr |
Wow....someone who I agree with. I just posted almost exactly the same thing on the Hannity MB and got slammed! Big time! All I said is that I hate that politics have to come in to movies that I like as entertainment and escape from the real world.
Movies are entertainment....they should not be a political soap box. But like LemWaters said, it's been done for years. I never really knew it until the past few years. I guess I just looked at movies through rose colored glasses and I must have misplaced them... |
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wwIIvetsdaughter
Captain
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 513
Location: McAllen, Texas
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:49 am Post subject: |
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| The Loony Left will see justification of the rabid anti-Bush template in any popular movie, so as to advance their adjenda. Do not forget they saw parallels to post 9/11 in "Minority Report" and the remake of "Manchurian Candidate". Doubtlessly they will see more in "War of the Worlds" (even though it was written 100 years ago) and Cruise/Spielberg will obligate by inserting their two cents worth. The Truth is Star Wars is the same story as is Lord of the Rings and the Chronicles of Narnia for that matter, the eventual triumph of good over evil. It all started with the one book most of Hollywood ignores, the Holy Bible. |
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PhD candidate
Former Member
Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 56
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 3:54 am Post subject: |
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okay, as a star wars fan, I have to put in my $0.02.
from what I know, lucas had the plot written for 9 movies when the original star wars was filmed back in 1976. A lot of his insporation for this story was drawn from joseph campbell and his power of myth book. whatever lucas is saying today, I have no clue.
I have my tickets already. |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 7:02 am Post subject: |
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| PhD candidate wrote: | okay, as a star wars fan, I have to put in my $0.02.
from what I know, lucas had the plot written for 9 movies when the original star wars was filmed back in 1976. A lot of his insporation for this story was drawn from joseph campbell and his power of myth book. whatever lucas is saying today, I have no clue.
I have my tickets already. |
I thought the 9 segments were written in a short novella by a British author, but regardless my problem with the movie is the use of words. Words actually do mean something even though few people are educated in the world today. I mean it takes a silver spoon in your mouth to learn the difference between Freedom and Liberty in today’s educational climate. And sad thing is even the spoon fed children of privilege are being dis-enfranchised by the radical left wing indoctrination of their masters.
There was a reason why Gibson yelled "Freedom" while having his bowels removed by a hook on the slab in 'Braveheart', as opposed to yelling liberty. He was killed by the liberty of his oppressors while fighting for his freedom.
I have a serious issue anytime liberty is placed before freedom. We all should.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 9:13 am Post subject: |
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Whoaaaaaa! Major smackdown from Chrenkov's blog!!!!!
| Quote: | http://haloscan.com/tb/chrenkoff/111628344030510174
An Open Letter to George Lucas
Dear Mr Lucas
This might be a good opportunity to thank you for many hours of entertainment that your two "Star Wars" trilogies have provided for me with. I'm not one of the "Star Wars" fanatics, but I've watched the five films so far several times over the years. I most fondly remember watching the first trilogy in the late 1970s and the early 80s at the movies, when I was a boy living in the then communist Poland. Your space saga of Luke Skywalker and his fight against Darth Vader, the Empire and the Dark Side has proved as big a hit on the other side of the Iron Curtin as it did in the West.
You might be aware that all of us who saw the "Star Wars" trilogy throughout the communist world saw it as an entertaining, yet still nonetheless powerful commentary on the current world events. We simply couldn't escape the conclusion that the militaristic and freedom-crushing Empire with its legions of stormtroopers is a futuristic version of the Soviet Empire, which had conquered and enslaved hundreds of millions of people like myself. For us, of course, Luke Skywalker, Han Solo and all the others fighting to restore the Republic were brave oppositionists and freedom fighters in the truest sense of the word. Like the Western movie goers, we too cheered when the Death Star was destroyed (twice), but whereas for our counterparts in the Free World this was just a great cinematic climax, for us it embodied the hope ("A New Hope", if you pardon the pun) that one day the specter of totalitarianism will vanish and we will be free again.
Apparently, however, we were wrong - we didn't read your movies correctly.
I noted with interest your recent remarks in Cannes:
> > "Star Wars" director George Lucas says that although he wrote the original film during the Vietnam War, his six-part saga could apply to the war in Iraq.
> > "In terms of evil, one of the original concepts was how does a democracy turn itself into a dictatorship," Lucas told a news conference at Cannes, where his final episode had its world premiere.
> > "The parallels between what we did in Vietnam and what we're doing in Iraq now are unbelievable.
> > "On the personal level it was how does a good person turn into a bad person, and part of the observation of that is that most bad people think they are good people, they are doing it for the right reasons."
Yes, we were very wrong indeed - to you, the Empire was the United States of America, and if that's the case, then the brave rebels could only be all those people around the world fighting the American Empire - the Castros, Che Guevaras, Ho Chi Minhs, Pol Pots, and by extension, the Brezhnevs and the Mao Tse Tungs of this world. You, of course, live in the Free World, and as such you have the right to believe that your country is the most powerful force for evil operating in the world. But just for the sake of completeness and historical accuracy, can I just mention that whatever the sins of the United States - and I certainly understand well enough that no country is perfect - your rebels, both when fighting for power and when finally in power, ended up being responsible for the death of tens of millions and enslavement of hundreds of millions; the Luke Skywalkers and Han Solos of the last century gave us gulags and re-education camps, terror famines and political prisons; they institutionalized cults of personality, stifled every human freedom and impoverished whole nations.
May I also add that whatever your thoughts about the United States and its supposed descent from a democracy into empire, had the Rebels won, you would have never had a chance to film a critical allegory on your own government. At best, your artistic output would have consisted of short features about the 150% increase in the wheat harvest, and at worst - if you had stayed true to your conscience - you would be dreaming your "Star Wars" trilogy from behind bars.
Over the course of the last three years, the United States and her allies have managed to depose two truly despicable regimes in Afghanistan and Iraq and today are trying to bring the gift of freedom and democracy - things that you enjoy every day probably without giving them much thought - to tens of millions of people who have never known them before. You might well think that Anakin Skywalker's painful transformation into Darth Vader is somehow a perfect analogy for the political journey of George W Bush, but I have a sneaking suspicion that movie fans in Baghdad will have already recognized Darth Vader as one of their own - with a moustache rather than a black helmet. He, too, had two children, although they didn't turn up quite as cute as Luke and Leia. They names were Uday and Qusay.
I will still go and see "The Revenge of the Sith" when it opens in Australia in a few days' time, and I will not stop enjoying the other five films just because I read their message differently to what you intended.
But if in your mind, it's the United States that has slowly transformed itself into an evil Empire, and therefore, logically all those who stand up to it are our story's true heroes, than I have to say that the Dark Side is very strong indeed, and I have crossed over a long time ago. If America is the Empire, then please prepare a black helmet and uniform for me too. |
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 11:47 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for posting that, EJ. Excellent commentary!!
Like so many in Hollywood, Lucas should have kept his mouth shut.
People could take from the movie what they want to see in it.
But now that he has translated that it could define the evil of President Bush and America, he will turn off a lot of fans.
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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nccjones
Ensign
Joined: 05 Sep 2004
Posts: 62
Location: Virginia Beach
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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This is an interesting article written in 2002 at the time of the Attack of the Clones release. Alot of what he says in this article are things I thought about years ago. I remember thinking back in the early 80's that the Empire had control of the galaxy and kept order even though it was through fear and I never understood what the Rebels main intent was except to defeat the Empire. This is really interesting.
The more and more I read about what Lucas' intent was and what we as movie goers saw are two different things. I thought the Empire was an oppressive regime (which it is) and the Republic were freedom fighters. But as we know today, freedom fighters are not always good. I'm having fun reading into the politics of all this.
I have to add this edit... Sometimes I wish I could be that 13 year old girl again going to see a movie about a boy and a cute scoundrel who rescue a princess from the bad guys. I liked the innocense of that....
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/248ipzbt.asp?pg=1 |
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BuffaloJack
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1637
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Excellent catch finding Chrenkov post, EJ, reading it was pure enjoyment.
Thanks for sharing with us !!
_________________
Swift Boats - Qui Nhon (12/69-4/70), Cat Lo (4/70-5/70), Vung Tau (5/70-12/71) |
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msindependent
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 891
Location: Colorado
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| Posted: Tue May 17, 2005 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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| They really do just need to shut up and sing (or whatever). After hearing Lucas flap his stupid jaws, I'm not going to see it. |
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wwIIvetsdaughter
Captain
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 513
Location: McAllen, Texas
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| Posted: Thu May 19, 2005 4:41 am Post subject: |
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| I heard a Hollywood commentator today on KTSA opine that Lucas' first three Star Wars films succeeded because they incorporated humor (remember wisecracking Han Solo?) into the story. The two prequels (so far) were not as well liked by fans because they lacked any joy and instead were rather dour movies. Ewan McGregor is reported to have tried to ad lib some lighter lines into his dialouge for part III and was stopped by Lucas. This reporter said the "darkness" of the three prequels in his opine can be traced back to events in Lucas' personal life since the original three films. For example, his adultulerous wife (with a Lucas employee) divorced him and took off with 50 million of his money. He lives a secluded existence on the Skywalker ranch and although gives many interviews, is never seen going out, vacationing or in general, enjoying life. To this reporter, Lucas is projecting his apparently unhappy life into his work moreso than any intented political adjenda. |
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