SwiftVets.com

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

It would be too easy, wouldn't it? It couldn't be this simple. Could it? I'm afraid to get my hopes up though, so can I toss out some doubts?

Isn't it possible that a base in which so many tons of such documents were churned out would have had a word processor capable of justification in 1978?

Also, it's a very small sample, but if you look at the "Pr" in "President," and the "Co" in "Component," the miniscules are not "tucked in" under the capital letters, the way that they are in modern Windows type-faces. And the "e" that follows the "R" in Reserve is either touching or almost touching the letter before it.

The word-spacing is accounted for by the justification but the letter spacing doesn't look "off" to me - it looks like a normal mono-spaced font from the Selectrics we used back then, with the OCR font at the top and bottom of the document.

Don't get me wrong - no one would be happier than I if this is a fake. But, we should be cautious. Can we find someone who is an expert in typewriters and typology to look at this?

I'd really hate to be popping corks only to find out that this is an entirely legitimate document. In the meantime, here's hoping I'm wrong on all counts!
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother

[Wing Wiper]

Oh no, looking at that crappy copy it's impossible to make an absolute statement that it's a fake. As I said, if possible, the best plan would be to send it to John Warner with your thoughts/suspicions and see what he has to say about it. I'm assuming he's one of the "good guys". If he agreed that it was suspicious, he could easily demand to see the original to verify authenticity. It wouldn't be hard to spot a fake, and I doubt Senator Warner would be in the least bit amused by it.
Having both margins justified like that document wasn't really something that was easily done in 1978, though if one had a state-of-the-art typewriter and was willing to put in the time doing a lot of calculating of word spacing, it would be possible.

[shawa]

My theory.
When I first saw Essayons post, I figured Kerry pulled all his docs because
he is ready to release his SF-180. He has spent the last six months
scrubbing his records and now will release them, but he does not want
any old documents left on the net for us to make comparisons and note
changes he has made.
We know he is running again in 2008, and he knows he has to release
his records to get the controversy over with.
In his MTP interview he indicated that he would sign the 180 AFTER HE
REVIEWED (and scrubbed) HIS RECORDS!!

"So when we get--I'm going to sit down with them and make sure that they are clear and I am clear as to what is in the record and what isn't in the record"

I remember watching the interview and he said 'So when we get' (PAUSE)
as if catching himself and biting his tongue when he almost admitted
he was having all his records sent to HIM!!!

From the transcript:

[SBD]

I have been saying that these docs are fakes and even pointed to a few of them that were made with Photoshop which is embedded in the doc. I kept getting told that they probably just cleaned up the doc to make itreadable. ya right!!

My theory is that all of the docs labeled with Official Record Copy are fakes and some of them were even made from HTML pages as seen on page number 49 through 54 of the Doc I posted which have the markings of Internet Explorer on the top where it says Document Pages and at the bottom where it says file:///D:\viewDocument.html

The D drive is probably a CD ROM with the original docs whch were then viewed in Internet Explorer, possibly edited with the Official Record Copy background in the HTML, and then saved again to PDF on their computer.

SBD

[Wing Wiper]

Well, it's really lucky that we saved copies of his web site "official records" then, because if Kerry was dumb enough to doctor them and append the original signature, that's a clear case of forgery. Now he'll release a different version of the record with the same signature?
Oh, this could get good. And the fake has "Official Record Copy" stamped across it? Somehow I don't think that will cut the mustard.
The rabid Liberals will give him a pass on it (of course), but revealing the fact that he faked his "official Navy records" on his campaign site will change enough people's minds about his honesty to really do some damage to his campaign, assuming he can avoid criminal charges. You know he's going to feign outrage, though. "One of my campaign workers doctored the documents and I was unaware of it." What a crook.

[FireFox]

Any chance that this was a typeset form with the
name and other changing details typed in? The
spacing between the words looks a little funny as
Word could add little bits of space between the
letters in a word to make the spaces between words
not seem as big.

[Essayons]

The two documents posted by rbshirley are 4 years apart – 1974 and 1978. There were some special “computers” (stand alone units) used in law offices by 1976 that had some features that may have allowed right justification. Unfortunately, I have no way of confirming what those capabilities were nor do I know the manufacturer. Anyone who was a legal secretary in the 1976-77 timeframe may be able to help.

There is one line on page 144 of the PDF file thttp://www.swiftboatarchives.com/docfile/johnkerrymilitaryrecords.pdf that SBD pointed me to. The last entry reads as follows:

Discharged for U.S. Naval Reserve 16 February 1973

Possibly “for” is a typo. No matter, since this discharge document has never surfaced on Kerry’s web site that I am aware of. If it had been an “honorable discharge” then why did Kerry not post it on his web site?

Kerry’s postings of his military records raise more questions than they answer and that needs to be addressed. Kerry has spent the last 36 years saying whatever he wished about his military career and getting away with it because he counted on the fact that there was no way that anyone could counter his statements – until last year.

My apology for this brief and possibly confusing entry. I will have time available over the weekend to do some further research and hopefully post a clearer picture of my thoughts.

Regards,
Dick
_________________
Essayons - Let us try - the code of the Army Engineer. Sappers First, the code of the Combat Engineer.

[SBD]

Well, I found this and posted it in the main forum. I think he got his discharge upgraded and used section 1162 and 1163 to make it Honorable as it seems that the Ford/Carter Amnesty just cleared the bad discharge but in order to become officially honorable it had to be proven to be "Honorable" on its' own merits.


Title 32----National Defense
Subtitle A----Department of Defense
CHAPTER VI----DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY SUBCHAPTER C----PERSONNEL
PART 730----ADMINISTRATIVE DISCHARGES AND RELATED MATTERS
CONCERNING SEPARATIONS FROM THE NAVAL SERVICE
Subpart B----Marine Corps

§ 730.72 Giving and recording of advice to a respondent, both when the respondent is and when he is not under military control.

32 CFR 730.72
(a) Requirements. Whether or not a respondent is under military control, no administrative discharge under conditions other than honorable, and, in the case of a member with 8 or more years of continuous active duty no administrative discharge by reason of unsuitability, will be effected unless the respondent is tendered the advice prescribed below:

(1) Advice to respondent under military control. In each case where a member on active duty and under military control is recommended for an undesirable discharge, or has 8 or more years of continuous active military service and is recommended for a discharge by reason of unsuitability, or requests a discharge for the good of the service within the purview of § 730.70, the officer empowered to convene an administrative discharge board having jurisdiction over the member will take or cause to be taken the following action:

(i) Notify the member, in writing, of the proposed discharge action and the general and specific bases therefor.
(ii) Advise the member of the purpose and scope of the Navy Discharge Review Board and the Board for Correction of Naval Records. See § 730.50(c)(2).
(iii) Advise the member that he has the following rights, which will, unless he waives such rights in writing, be afforded him: To present to and have his case considered by an administrative discharge board of not less than three officers, at least one of whom will be a field grade officer, and composed in accordance with § 730.73(b); to appear in person before such board, subject to his availability; and to be represented by military counsel, who will be a lawyer within the meaning of article 27(b)(1) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice unless appropriate authority certifies in the
permanent record the nonavailability of a lawyer so qualified and sets forth the qualifications of the substituted nonlawyer counsel. Advise the member that if he does not waive a hearing before an administrative discharge board, and upon the hearing of his case before such board, he will be entitled to those rights set forth in § 730.73(c) (2) through (5), (12), (14),
(15), (1; (f), and (g). The advice as to the respondent's rights contained in the cited paragraphs of § 730.73 may be given in a summarized form. Further advise the member that before waiving any of these rights, in writing, it would be to his advantage to consult with counsel and that he will be given the opportunity to do so.
(iv) Advise the member who indicates that he wishes to submit a request for discharge for the good of the service,
pursuant to § 730.70, that, if such request is accepted, he may receive a discharge under other than honorable conditions
without administrative discharge board action, and further advise him of the adverse nature of such discharge and the possible consequences thereof. Before a member is permitted to actually submit a request for discharge for the good of the service, he will be advised that it would be to his advantage to consult with counsel and he will be given the opportunity
to do so.

(2) Advice to respondent not under military control. In each case where a member on active duty is recommended for an undesirable discharge, or has 8 or more years of continuous active military service and is recommended for a discharge by reason of unsuitability, and the member is not under military control because of either his continuous established
unauthorized absence of more than 1 year, or because of his confinement by civil authorities, the officer empowered to convene an administrative discharge board having jurisdiction over the member will take or cause to be taken the following action: (Where the member is not under military control because of the continuous established unauthorized absence of more than 1 year, the action prescribed by paragraph (a)(2)(ii) of this section will ordinarily be taken or caused to be taken by the Commandant of the Marine Corps. See § 730.54(c)(1).)

(i) Where the member is not under military control and is unable to appear before an administrative discharge board because of his confinement by civil authorities, advise the member, in writing and by registered mail sent to the civil institution where the member is confined:
(a) Of the proposed discharge action and the general and specific bases therefor.
(b) Of the type of discharge certificate that may be issued.
(c) Of the purpose and scope of the Navy Discharge Review Board and the Board for Correction of Naval Records. See § 730.50(c)(2).
(d) Of the fact that administrative discharge action has been suspended to give him the opportunity to exercise the following rights: To request the appointment of a military counsel, who will be a lawyer within the meaning of article 27(b)(1) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice unless appropriate authority certifies in the permanent record the nonavailability of a lawyer so qualified and sets forth the qualifications of the substituted nonlawyer counsel, and to have such counsel represent him, and in his absence, present his case before an administrative discharge board; to submit statements in his own behalf; and to waive the foregoing rights, either in writing, or by the failure to reply to the letter of notification within the prescribed time limit specified therein.

(ii) Subject to the provisions of Title 10, U.S. Code 1163, where the member is not under military control by reason of a continuous established unauthorized absence of more than 1 year, advise the member, in writing and by registered mail sent to the current home of record address of the member, or the current address of his next of kin as reflected in the
member's service records, as appropriate:
(a) Of the proposed discharge action and the general and specific bases therefor.
(b) Of the effective date of the proposed discharge action.
(c) Of the type of discharge certificate that may be issued.
(d) Of the purpose and scope of the Navy Discharge Review Board and the Board for Correction of Naval Records. See § 730.50(c)(2).

(3) Recording advice given respondent under military control. In each case where a member on active duty and under military control is recommended for an undesirable discharge, or has 8 or more years of continuous active military service and is recommended for discharge by reason of unsuitability, or requests discharge for the good of the service within the purview of § 730.70, and after the advice prescribed in paragraph (a)(1) of this section has been given and the opportunity
to consult with counsel has been afforded, the permanent record will contain either the following, or in lieu thereof, a certification by the officer taking the action prescribed by paragraph (a)(1) of this section that such action has been accomplished:
(i) A copy of the written notification to the member of the general and specific bases for the proposed discharge action.
(ii) The member's written acknowledgement of the advice given him of the purpose and scope of the Navy Discharge Review Board and the Board for Correction of Naval Records.
(iii) The member's written acknowledgement that he was given and understands the advice prescribed in paragraph (a)(1) (iii) and/or (iv) of this section.
(iv) The member's written waiver of any or all of the rights prescribed in paragraph (a)(1)(iii) of this section, and/or the member's written request for discharge for the good of the service, together with the member's written acknowledgement that he was afforded the opportunity to consult with counsel prior to effecting such waivers and/or request for discharge.
The member's written acknowledgement will include the fact that he either chose not to consult with counsel prior to effecting such waivers and/or request for discharge, or, if he did so consult with counsel, the specific identity of the counsel and his legal qualifications.

AND HERE IS WHAT IS IN HIS RECORD THAT HE DOES NOT WANT US TO SEE

(4) Recording advice given respondent not under military control. In each case where a member on active duty is recommended for an undesirable discharge, or has 8 or more years of continuous active military duty and is recommended for a discharge by reason of unsuitability, and the member is not under military control because of his continuous established unauthorized absence of more than 1 year, or because of his confinement by civil authorities, and after the advice prescribed in paragraph (a)(2) of this section has been given, the permanent record will contain the following:

(i) A certified copy of the registered letter or letters sent to the member pursuant to paragraph (a)(2) (i) or (ii) of this section, including a certification as to the date any letter was mailed and the address to which it was sent.

(ii) The complete reply or replies of the member and/or his next of kin to the registered letter or letters sent pursuant to paragraph (a)(2) (i) or (ii) of this section, or a certification that no reply from the member and/or his next of kin was received by a specified date.

(iii) Evidence that the registered letter or letters sent pursuant to paragraph (a)(2) (i) or (ii) of this section was delivered, or was not delivered, or was undeliverable.

(iv) The member's written waiver, if any, of any or all of his rights prescribed by paragraph (a)(2) (i)(d) of this section.

(5) Advice to a respondent who is a member of the Marine Corps Reserve on inactive duty.

(i) In each case where a Reservist on inactive duty is recommended for an undesirable discharge, or where such Reservist has 8 or more years of continuous active duty and is recommended for discharge by reason of unsuitability, the officer empowered to convene an administrative discharge board having jurisdiction over the member will take or cause to be taken the following action, in the form prescribed in paragraph (a)(5)(ii) of this section:

(a) Notify the member, in writing, of the proposed discharge action, the general and specific bases therefor, and the type of discharge certificate that may be issued.

(b) Advise the member of the purpose and scope of the Navy Discharge Review Board and the Board for Correction of Naval Records. See § 730.50(c)(2).

(c) Advise the member that if he is reasonably available to appear before an administrative discharge board, he has the following rights, whichf will, unless he waives such rights in writing, be afforded him: To present to and have his case considered by an administrative discharge board of not less than three officers, at least one of whom will be a field grade officer, and composed in accordance with § 730.73

(b); to appear in person before such board, subject to his availability;
and to be represented by civilian counsel at no expense to the Government, or to be represented by military counsel, who will be a lawyer within the meaning of article 27(b)(1) of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, unless appropriate authority certifies in the permanent record the nonavailability of a lawyer so qualified and sets forth the qualifications of the substituted nonlawyer counsel.

NOTE: Despite the fact that military counsel who is a lawyer within the meaning of article 27(b)(1), UCMJ, will not normally be on active duty within a reserve unit, the availability of such counsel must, nevertheless, be determined in each case in accordance with the general principles contained in § 730.73(f). Advise the member that if he does not waive a hearing before an administrative discharge board, and upon the hearing
of his case before such board, he will be entitled to those rights set forth in § 730.73(c)(2) through (5), (12), (14), (15), (1; (f), and (g). The advice as to the respondent's rights contained in the cited paragraphs of § 730.73 may be given in a summarized form. Further advise the member that before waiving any of these rights, in writing, it would be to his advantage to consult with counsel and that he will be given the opportunity to do so.

(d) Advise the member that if he either fails to reply to the letter of notification and advice within the prescribed time limit specified therein, or if he replies to such letter and does not waive in writing his right to appear in person before an administrative discharge board but, after being notified of the time and place of the meeting of the board, fails to appear, he will be considered to have effectively waived all of his rights before the board and the board will proceed in his absence with the appropriate disposition of his case.

(e) Advise the member that if he does choose to appear in person before an administrative discharge board, such appearance will be at no expense to the Government.

(ii) The giving of the notification and advice required by paragraph (a)(5)(i) of this section will be accomplished by the mailing of a registered letter, containing such notification and advice, addressed to the member concerned at the mailing address which the records of the activity mailing the letter indicate as the most recent one furnished by the member as
an address at or from which official mail will be received or forwarded to him. In addition to, or under appropriate circumstances in lieu of, a letter so addressed, a registered letter addressed to the member concerned containing this notification and advice may be directed to any of the following:
(a) The city, town, or community in which the member has last been reported to be residing, or the post office address apparently nearest his last reported place of residence, or
(b) In care of any person whom the member has at any time designated in his service records (i.e., in blocks 16--18 of DD Form 93--1), as a beneficiary or as one to be notified in the event of his serious injury or death, sent to the mailing address which the records of the authority originating the letter indicate as the most recent one furnished by the member concerned for such person, or
(c) In care of any institution in which the member has been reported to be hospitalized or confined. Neither the absence of an indication of delivery, nor the return as undeliverable, of a registered letter addressed as outlined above, will negate the legal efficacy of such letter as the notification and advice required by paragraph (a)(5)(i) of this
section to be given to the member concerned. It is the responsibility of each member of the Marine Corps Reserve to ensure that the records pertaining to him accurately and currently reflect a mailing address at which he can be reached.

(6) Recording advice given to a respondent who is a member of the Marine Corps Reserve on inactive duty. In each case where a Reservist on inactive duty is recommended for an undesirable discharge, or where such Reservist has 8 or more years of continuous active duty and is recommended for discharge by reason of unsuitability, and after the
notification and advice prescribed by paragraph (a)(5) of this section has been given and the opportunity to consult with counsel has been afforded, the permanent record will contain the following:

(i) A certified copy of the registered letter or letters sent to the member pursuant to paragraph (a)(5) of this section, including a certification as to the date each letter was mailed and the address to which it was sent.

(ii) The complete reply or replies of the member and/or others acting on his behalf to any registered letter sent to him pursuant to paragraph (a)(5) of this section, or a certification that no reply from the member and/or others acting on his behalf was received by a specified date.

(iii) Evidence that any registered letter was delivered, or was not delivered or was undeliverable.

(iv) Evidence that a respondent, who did not waive, in writing, his right to appear before an administrative discharge board, after being notified of the time and place of the meeting of the board, failed to appear. In this event, all the known circumstances relating to such nonappearance should be reflected.

(v) The member's written waiver of any or all of his rights prescribed by paragraph (a)(5)(i)(c), together with the member's written acknowledgment that he was afforded the opportunity to consult with counsel prior to effecting such waivers, or a certification reflecting that such opportunity was afforded the member. Certification will be made of the fact that the member chose not to consult with counsel prior to effecting such waivers, or if he did so consult with counsel, the specific identity of the counsel and his legal qualifications.

(b) Member's refusal. Should any member affirmatively refuse to either request or waive his rights, and persist in such refusal, an entry in explanation thereof will be made in the record of the case, and the member's case will be disposed of as if he had requested all of his applicable rights.

SOURCE: 31 FR 16528, Dec. 28, 1966
AUTHORITY: Secs. 280, 1162, 1163, 6291--6298 70A Stat. 14, 89, 391--393, as amended, 76 Stat. 508, 517, sec. 301, 80 Stat. 379; 5 U.S.C. 301, 10 U.S.C. 133, 280, 1162, 1163, 1168, 6291--629

Sounds pretty close to me, doesn't it:?:

SBD

[kate]

where there's smoke SBD...

see my post in SBD's other thread re a reporter asking Kerry about a dishonorable discharge in a 1971 interview

http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=150352#150352


edit: moving this to the main forum with other topics re kerry discharge
_________________
.
one of..... We The People

[I B Squidly]

The first Apple and the Z80 chip running CPM were availible in '78. It took considerable skill just to get them to talk to a printer forget about kerning and justification. For that you needed a Wang or OmniGraphic typesetter which were dedicated 'minicomputers' costing several 10s of thousands and an education that cost almost as much to operate them. A decade later Bother typewriters with memory were common for 'boilerplate' material but mine is still done on a non-justifing, fouled key typewriter with triplicate carbons.
_________________
"KILL ALL THE LAWYERS!"

-Wlm Shakespeare

[Me#1You#10]

OK folks...let's get this thread back on topic. Should you wish to discuss aspects unrelated to the removal of Kerry's documents, please find an appropriate thread or start another.

TIA

Me#1

[Stevie]

fyi

I have them all copied on to my hard drive also....
didn't trust him...

Is this the doc that when I copied it, it 'copied' in 2 parts sort of?
you all remember anything about that at the time we were really
checking this doc out?
I seem to remember a doc copied in like 2 parts.... the overprint
(the official...) layered on like an overlay (that's what I thought of
at the time).
unfortuantely, my WORD is not working right now....I'll do a 'repair'
on it later and see if I can get it to work.
_________________
Stevie
Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage
morale and undermine the military are saboteurs and should
be arrested, exiled or hanged.

[Essayons]

Last night I started a new thread where I posted a replication of the text of Kerry’s 1978 discharge. It has been moved to the R&R forum.

What you will see is my attempt using MS Word 2003 to duplicate the text. I placed my attempt below the original document text for comparison purposes. I believe you will find it interesting.

Regards,
Dick
_________________
Essayons - Let us try - the code of the Army Engineer. Sappers First, the code of the Combat Engineer.