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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:41 am Post subject: |
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I can't believe a 20 year Navy veteran has so little understanding of the words "served with" that he wants to limit it to just the closest 5 people.
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"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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retire05
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 26
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:14 am Post subject: Re: Smear campaign |
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| Kevins wrote: | | As a 20-year Navy veteran, I find it ironic that this site in its faq tells us not to believe the sailors who actually served on the boat commanded by Kerry. Hey, how would they know, they were only there. The ad is even funnier. These officers get on who never served on Kerry’s boat saying “I served with Kerry,” and the caption below the photos lists the medal they won. Those medal don’t mean anything if Sen. Kerry’s medals don’t. What the false attack ad does is call into question every medal won by every veteran. I know officers tend to get the majority of medals, but they don’t award them to themselves. This smear campaign by this so-called “swift boat veterans for truth” is lacking in just that: the truth. |
Excuse me Kevins, but how many of these SwiftVets threw their metals (or ribbons) across the White House fence? How many of these SwiftVets threw someone else's metals across the While House fence? Perhaps their metals mean too much to them to throw away.
Do you think the Swifties lived on their boats? Never went for supplies, never carried out missions together? Their boats were not the size of the Enterprise. Or the Reagan. So use some good ole' Navy savey. How do you know what the truth is? Where you there?
How about giving these guys a chance? Let them prove what they are saying and stop being so biased. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:45 am Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | | I can't believe a 20 year Navy veteran has so little understanding of the words "served with" that he wants to limit it to just the closest 5 people. |
No doubt!
DH was twice an instructor pilot in a Primary Flight Training squadron.
There were probably twice as many pilots in the Squadron, but you knew within a couple of weeks of arrival who was going to be a no-load and who was going to deliver the goods.
He could look at pictures today and tell you who was hard on students, who he did or did not want to fly formation flights with, who could recover from anything the student got them in without losing their cool and who could not do that without screaming at the student.
Instructor pilots did not often fly in the same airplanes - they were two-seaters. So, with this insane rationale, the only people in the squadron my DH actually can claim to have "known" were the students - who he often saw on only a few occasions during the stage of training that he happened to be teaching at the time.
Pretty silly.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:53 am Post subject: |
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The sole station to refuse the advertisement from the “527” group is WBAY, ABC Channel 2, in Green Bay, Wisconsin, a key battle state.
There are other ways to reach the battleground state of Wisconsin. This newspaper, in Green Bay
http://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/
Just happens to have a forum, and quick look at the forum is a Vets section.
Maybe one of you Vets could make a quick post over there, and invite them to see the Ad here.
Just takes one, to start getting the word out and passing the news along.
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one of..... We The People |
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Dabba55
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 84
Location: Westchester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | As a 20-year Navy veteran, I find it ironic that this site in its faq tells us not to believe the sailors who actually served on the boat commanded by Kerry. |
I think this is a legitimate observation which Kerry's supporters will successfully use to defend him. And that is why these men must be heard above and beyond a 60-second soundbite. In fact, they did serve WITH Lt. Kerry. Kerry has a photo of him WITH them. He lived, ate, bunked with them in Can Rahn Bay and during his entire 3 mos. One of them, Van O'Dell, was right there for the incident that Kerry later got a medal for...O'Dell was a gunner (elevated, with a panoramic view) in a Swift Boat right there next to Kerry's...participating. So, I would say, the "truth" has only been partially told. What I wonder is, why didn't Douglas Brinkley interview these guys. He is vociferously denouncing these men, and he never spoke to them. This supports their claim that for years they declined all offers to denounce Kerry, that they had no interest in outing Kerry until he put himself up for the job of Commander in Chief, touting his military record as evidence of integrity. |
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Tony
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 01 Jul 2004
Posts: 119
Location: Jacksonville, FL
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 3:28 pm Post subject: Re: Smear campaign |
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| Kevins wrote: | | As a 20-year Navy veteran, I find it ironic that this site in its faq tells us not to believe the sailors who actually served on the boat commanded by Kerry. Hey, how would they know, they were only there. The ad is even funnier. These officers get on who never served on Kerry’s boat saying “I served with Kerry,” and the caption below the photos lists the medal they won. Those medal don’t mean anything if Sen. Kerry’s medals don’t. What the false attack ad does is call into question every medal won by every veteran. I know officers tend to get the majority of medals, but they don’t award them to themselves. This smear campaign by this so-called “swift boat veterans for truth” is lacking in just that: the truth. |
Kevins - a few comments on your findings of irony.
I put much more weight on what Kerry's fellow junior officers (the other OICs) think of him. Not sure what you did in the Navy - but I was a junior officer who served aboard a Cruiser and a Hydrofoil. A lot of stuff that went on in the wardroom, stayed in the wardroom. We were honorable men and professionals - and if one of our fellow JOs was a dirtbag - the crew certainly didn't need to know about that, although many of them were wise to figure it out. The fact that Kerry's fellow OICs and chain of command has come out against him is more telling than what the enlisted men in his crew might think.
As for medals. All of us who served can recount a story of someone who didn't earn a medal who should have and someone else who earned one they didn't deserve. Regardless of whether Kerry earned his (and I think there are some serious doubts on a few of them) - the fact that he chose to thrown them away in protest (or at least throw someone's medals away) is the key point.
For me - this isn't about Kerry's medals and in fact it's not even about his service. It's about the way he is representing his service in a close political race trying to be something he is not. He's trying to ignore his senate record and portray himself as a war hero capable of being President. He's also trying to portray strong support from Vets which is a distortion of the truth in the worst way. Every vet I know (and I know a lot) feels differently.
You seem to be the exception - so I'd love to hear how after twenty years in the Navy you can support a man who calls you (that's right us vets are all in this together) a war criminal.
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Dabba55
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 18 Jul 2004
Posts: 84
Location: Westchester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:39 pm Post subject: |
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Tony, the media and the general public does not understand military culture. This is why Kerry was rather confident about releasing lackluster fitness reports. To the untrained eye, they look pretty good. To anyone who knows how to read them and what to look for, they say, Do not promote this man.
Speaking of which, Kerry defenders should ask themselves, why won't he release ALL of the paperwork surrounding these medals and the events therein? He told Tim Russert he would, then didn't. If the Swifties are lying, then why would THEY want the paperwork released? Why would Kerry unleash lawyers to quash public speech? He can bring these charges to a halt by releasing the papers.
My concern: This will not go away. If Kerry is elected, this controversy will continue, perhaps even worsen, because the media thrives on it and Bush will no longer be there for them to focus on...Our country simply cannot afford to have a presidency under seige...We have important battles to fight as a united country...the war on terror.
Kerry supporters: Join us, as Americans, and demand he release his complete military records so we can put this all to rest. |
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captjenk
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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| from an outside view, I am talking. of course you all believe it is going to do well, you guys were behind it. But listening to the radio here in Chicago, I am telling you it did more harm than good. Now granted you will probably say the message was intended for the swing vote states, but it is really doing more harm than good here in Chicago especially when they are struggling to find a republican to canidate to run against Obama. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Your full of cr*p. if you listen to the news Captjenk then you would know that it is doing very well, and how do I know that you are full of cr*ap because two day's ago they announced Key's as the Republican nomination to run against Obama. That was they day after this add ran. So no you have not been listening to the news and you are not informed. You are just trolling the DU line to make it sound like we are hurting the CIC. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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RIslander
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 29 Jul 2004
Posts: 14
Location: Rhode Island
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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Guys, write to the the station at wbay@wbay.com. I sent the following and posted it in the Vets Only section, also.
As a Viet Nam veteran and career soldier, I wish to comment on your decision not to run the ad produced by the Swift Vote Veterans for Truth. But, let me start with a question.
Was your decision not to run the ad based on a legal decision, or, was it based upon a political view? Either way, you are being totally disingenuous to those who view your station.
When a member of the media decides to show only one side of any argument they are being nothing more than political hacks. It is, after all, the Kerry/Edwards campaign which has chosen to ignore his political career and make his rather short period of time in Viet Nam the cornerstone of his run for the Presidency.
With such behavior, one has to question, when the matter is given some thought, the licensing of a station such as WBAY. Being quite blunt, are you, by your actions, serving as an active agent in Kerry's political campaign, or, are you so totally without courage as an organization? Regardless of which it is, your action is disgraceful.
My comments are mine and mine alone, but as I stated above, I was career military. You in the media love to cite your Constitutional rights. So, does that mean, your voice may be heard, but if someone might disagree, that voice should be stifled? Answer the question, please. One of the reasons I served all of those years was to defend your rights, as a news organization, to show all sides of the story. Apparently, the threat of legal action is all that is required for you, as a station, to feel free to modify your interpretation of our rights.
Brave and good men have been vilified by the Kerry camp because they wish to disagree with the Kerry machine, and you are acting as nothing more than a tool. I hope, somehow, you gain the courage needed just to stand in their presence.
I remain, |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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If the ad wasn't doing well, the Democrat attack machine wouldn't be out in full force attacking those who spoke and this group. The high level of attack against it shows it's effect and it hurt them.
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Acksiom
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 14
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:48 pm Post subject: |
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| captjenk wrote: | | from an outside view, I am talking. of course you all believe it is going to do well, you guys were behind it. |
I wasn't and am not. I'm undecided. So here's your opportunity to make your case to a neutral observer.
| captjenk wrote: | | But listening to the radio here in Chicago, I am telling you it did more harm than good. |
Again, how, please?
| captjenk wrote: | | Now granted you will probably say the message was intended for the swing vote states, but it is really doing more harm than good here in Chicago especially when they are struggling to find a republican to canidate to run against Obama. |
Again, how, please? |
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McCloud
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 44
Location: Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:09 pm Post subject: Another station that caved in |
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| WTVG in Toldeo, Ohio also caved in and refused to run the ad on the advice of their legal counsel. I am going to send their management a letter and ask if they have also decided not to run any commercials from MoveOn.org or ACT or the Media Fund. The fight goes on! |
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Theresa Alwood
Rear Admiral
Joined: 05 Jun 2004
Posts: 631
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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Can you post their e-mail address. I will write them.
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Born to raise a little hell! |
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prdCOmom
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 104
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Kevins wrote:
As a 20-year Navy veteran, I find it ironic that this site in its faq tells us not to believe the sailors who actually served on the boat commanded by Kerry. Hey, how would they know, they were only there. The ad is even funnier. These officers get on who never served on Kerry’s boat saying “I served with Kerry,” and the caption below the photos lists the medal they won. Those medal don’t mean anything if Sen. Kerry’s medals don’t. What the false attack ad does is call into question every medal won by every veteran. I know officers tend to get the majority of medals, but they don’t award them to themselves. This smear campaign by this so-called “swift boat veterans for truth” is lacking in just that: the truth. |
These Kerry supporters are really starting to worry me a bit here.
I used to think that they were just not capable of more complex thought processes but now it seems the problem is much worse. It seems that even the most basic of thought processes seem to be out of their reach.
These folks want us to believe that there is something sinister in the fact that these Commanding Officers (Kerry's direct peers) did not actually stand on a boat with John Kerry, so how could they know what they are talking about.
Now that brings up some interesting questions for a housewife from CO.
1. Do all swift boats work without cover from other boats?
2. Is there a so many ft. one must be to know what the guy on the boat next to him is doing?
3. Are you only allowed to speak or hang out with the swiftvets on your own boat? (No cross swiftvetting)
4. Have they ever been camping and boating and hung out on the lake with their buddies. (Did they know what their buddies were doing?)
5. Does one have to be Kerry's bunkmate to say they served with Kerry?
(That one scared me a bit)
6. Is this all they have?
Maybe if they put their protest signs down and did a little research.....This TRUTH might not seem so foreign to them.
Is this a Republican Site?
Geeeez guys, I thought this was a Navy site!
And one more thing.....What was Kerry doing in Cambodia on Christmas Eve?
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