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VoiceOfReason
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:39 am Post subject: Evidence, please |
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I'll probably get flamed for this post. I ask that people please read it and keep an open mind.
Let me start off by thanking the Swift Boat Veterans for their service to the country. I am too young to have been alive for much of Vietnam, so I wasn't there firsthand to witness it, but I believe the way many people treated you on your return home was disgraceful. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting your lives on the line for the United States.
Let me also start off by stating that I will vote for President Bush to be reelected. I believe he's done a good if not perfect job, and I believe he deserves another term. I was planning to vote for Bush before I even heard of SVBfT, and I'm still planning to now.
That being said...
Your advertisement raises some very serious accusations. It is unconscionable that your website, which is mentioned prominently in the ad, doesn't lay out the evidence for every one of these accusations.
When Al French says that John Kerry is lying about his record, what incident is he referring to? When Van Odell says that Kerry lied to get his bronze star, which he knows because he was there and he saw it, exactly what lies did Kerry tell? When Jack Chenoweth says that Kerry's account differed from reality, his account of what? When what chips were down could Larry Thurlow not count on John Kerry? What did he do to lose Bob Hildreth's trust?
The details behind Louis Letson's allegations are laid out well both on your website and in the sample chapter of Unfit for Command that's being circulated... although honestly, they seem to violate a privilege. And it's pretty clear that the accusations of "betrayal" refer to his conduct once back from Vietnam.
I believe your accusations are probably true, because I find it hard to believe that so many decorated combat veterans would attach their names to a lie. And I want your accusations to be true, because they would certainly harm Kerry's quest for the Presidency. But my beliefs and wants don't constitute proof.
It's been reported that you're distributing a thick pack of documents and affidavits to TV stations with your ad. Why aren't you sharing that evidence with the rest of us?
You've made your accusations. Now please, make your case. Nobody should have to buy a book to find out the details of serious allegations of impropriety on the part of a Presidential candidate. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:48 am Post subject: |
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I'm not going to flame you and I'm going to give you a little slack..
The answers to this are all over this bulletin board. Please read through the archives.
More answers are found out there on the internet.
Just read and listen to what these vets are saying. They were there. They served alongside this man who wants to be President.
They suffered from his actions.
Please don't come in with one post and demand that all your questions be answered - some of us don't have time to provide instant answers. If you want the answers, they are here, but you may have to do your own research to find them.
There is a search function at the top of the page. Use it to help you find the posts that you are most interested in.
Good luck and I hope you learn what you need to learn.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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tngator
Lt.Jg.
Joined: 03 Aug 2004
Posts: 105
Location: Tn
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 5:54 am Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: |
There is a search function at the top of the page. Use it to help you find the posts that you are most interested in.
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And unlike 'some' sites that will remain nameless, you do not have to be a donor to use the search. I had the same thoughts when I first came here and after reading through the archives for nearly 3 hours, it was a real eye opener.
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Click 4 SEC Sports Talk
Kerry Fled While Brave Men Bled |
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VoiceOfReason
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:00 am Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | If you want the answers, they are here, but you may have to do your own research to find them.
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That's not acceptable. Suppose I said, "Navy_Navy_Navy likes little boys. The proof is out there, but you'll have to do your own research to find it." I doubt you or anyone would find that tolerable. The burden of proof is on those who make the accusation.
| Quote: | | Please don't come in with one post and demand that all your questions be answered - some of us don't have time to provide instant answers. |
SBVfT is running the ad with these allegations, it is SBVfT's job to provide the evidence. Not only is this the right thing to do, it's the smart thing to do as well. People who see that ad and wonder, "Whoa, what's this all about?" will visit the website and look for answers. They won't necessarily dig through a message board and try to find the proof for themselves.
| Quote: | | Good luck and I hope you learn what you need to learn. |
I don't "need to learn" anything, I'm voting against Kerry regardless. It's the swing voter who is made curious by the ad and visits the site that I'm worried about. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:11 am Post subject: |
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| VoiceOfReason wrote: |
That's not acceptable. |
 Sorry, that's the best you're going to get from me tonight - my son just walked in the door - he's home on leave from the world's greatest aircraft carrier. (Go NAVY!!!!)
People who are curious about the ad are going to find all the answers they seek right here on the front page.
For those who do not, the search function is an acceptable mode of finding what they seek.
If they are confused on a specific point, they are free to ask and someone who knows or has a cite will answer. This is a very helpful bunch to anyone with pleasant manners and a sincere question.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:26 am Post subject: |
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If you vote it is your responsibility to know the facts. If you run for President on a war hero claim then it is your responsibility to prove it. Kerry could easily prove his point if he signs the 180 form and releases all of his records. The fact is that if he does that it will prove the SVFT point. Everything is easily available on the front page, the net, wintersoldiers.com. Funny how nobody has to prove all the attacks on President Bush's military record. And those attacks came from John Kerry's mouth. Funny how noone asked the democrats to speak out about that. Kerry is learning that attacks are not fun especially when they are true and directed at him for a change. Kerry lied and good men died. Semper Fi.
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Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:37 am Post subject: |
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| VoiceOfReason wrote: |
The burden of proof is on those who make the accusation.
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If you want evidence buy the book. You can wait 4 days. We've been waiting 33 years for JFnK to supply evidence for slanderous lies.   
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:47 am Post subject: |
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VoR, if you are really seeking answers, they can be easily found here and elsewhere. Much of what has been stated in the ad is available through the home page for SBVT and there are several other web sites set up by vets exposing Mr. Kerry, as well as the upcoming book, "Unfit For Command," by John O'Neill.
Here is one site;
http://www.vnsfvetakerry.com/
Within this site are several links to other sites including SBVT, Wintersoldier.com and several others.
Since you state that the burden of proof is on the one making the accusations, I'd like to hear what proof Mr. Kerry used when he stated we "had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Ghengis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war...." "on a day to day basis."
The general public, even by your own words at the first post in this thread, seems to have accepted his words openly and we have been feeling their disdain and suffering, silently, for the most part, for well over 30 years now because of that.
My question to you is, why, after all this time, are we being asked to prove what we say and Mr. Kerry never has been? Are the 23 that stood alongside him at the convention to be more believed than the several thousands that are now speaking out?
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VoiceOfReason
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | | If you vote it is your responsibility to know the facts. |
Perhaps. But an awful lot of people shirk that responsibility, and their vote counts for as much as yours.
If you advocate voting for (or against) a candidate, it is your responsibility to make your case. That includes providing proof for your allegations. | Quote: | | If you run for President on a war hero claim then it is your responsibility to prove it. Kerry could easily prove his point if he signs the 180 form and releases all of his records. |
I wholeheartedly agree that Kerry should do this. I'm highly disturbed by the absence of certain files from his released records. But their absence doesn't constitute proof. | Quote: | | The fact is that if he does that it will prove the SVFT point. |
You can't know that, unless you've seen evidence I haven't. You're probably right. But it's not John Kerry's responsibility to make SVFT's case for them.
| Quote: | | Everything is easily available on the front page, the net, wintersoldiers.com. |
I listed several things that are not backed up on the front page. People who come here seeking facts should not have to dig through a message board to find them. Can you imagine how jury trials would go if prosecutors just told the jury, "Here's a huge stack of stuff, find the evidence for yourself, it's in there?"
SVFT is incorporated under Chapter 527 of the Internal Revenue Code, meaning it is an advocacy group. To advocate something is to promote it and to make the case for it. You don't advocate by saying, "Go dig for the truth yourself."
| Quote: | | Funny how nobody has to prove all the attacks on President Bush's military record. etc etc double standard |
This is wholly irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I'll just say that I hope your mother taught you that two wrongs don't make a right and leave it at that. | Quote: | | Kerry lied and good men died. Semper Fi. |
I mean absolutely no disrespect to the United States Marine Corps, nor to the men and women who serve in it, truly the finest our nation has to offer. I was not good enough to serve, so I can only remove my hat to you and give you my respect.
That being said...
Spouting catchy slogans will not win us the undecideds.
Please try to understand that I am on your side. I want to see Kerry defeated as much as any of you. But (warning: rough language ahead) sitting here circlejerking will not accomplish that goal. I'm sure the Marines never took a hill by sitting around smugly telling each other how rotten the enemy was. What's needed is what's needed in any operation: a cold, hard look at strategy.
Serious claims have been made. The public is interested. And the public should be getting flooded with detail, especially the affidavits signed by the veterans who appeared in the ad. Those should be readily available in a big fat link from the front page. Or this ad will not have nearly the effect it should have, and may even backfire. Is that what anybody wants?
| JN173 wrote: | | If you want evidence buy the book. |
No, no, and no. In the first place, it is SVFT that's running the advertisement, and it is not SVFT that is publishing the book. In the second place, nobody should have to buy a book to get this information. | Quote: | | You can wait 4 days. |
I can. Hell, even if I never saw the evidence, I'd still vote against Kerry, for reasons having nothing to do with his Vietnam service. But the general public, the swing voters who are seeing this ad, may lose interest. Or may not want to fork over a double-sawbuck for a book. | LewWaters wrote: | | VoR, if you are really seeking answers, they can be easily found here and elsewhere. |
I'm not seeking answers. I'm seeking evidence. And, more to the point, I'm seeking it from the people who are making the accusations. The specific people. What did they say in their sworn affidavits?
| Quote: | | as well as the upcoming book, "Unfit For Command," by John O'Neill. |
I'll be in line to buy it the day it is released. But the book is not affiliated with SVFT, and if SVFT wants credibility, SVFT will back up its claims itself.
| Quote: | | Since you state that the burden of proof is on the one making the accusations, I'd like to hear what proof Mr. Kerry used when he stated we "had personally raped, cut off ears..." |
Can't you people understand that I'm not defending John Kerry?
| Quote: | | The general public, even by your own words at the first post in this thread, seems to have accepted his words openly and we have been feeling their disdain and suffering, silently, for the most part, for well over 30 years now because of that. My question to you is, why, after all this time, are we being asked to prove what we say and Mr. Kerry never has been? |
You seem offended that the general public accepted John Kerry's claims uncritically, yet now you want the general public to accept SVFT's claims uncritically.
| Quote: | | Are the 23 that stood alongside him at the convention to be more believed than the several thousands that are now speaking out? |
It depends what they say. If I accuse you of murdering your wife, I have no right to act offended when asked to present evidence of my accusation. Nobody's word should be taken uncritically, and every claim should require evidence. It has nothing to do with credibility.
If I should happen to get banned for this post, remember that I am not the enemy. Kerry is. And he'll win, unless we're smart.
Last edited by VoiceOfReason on Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:05 am Post subject: |
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| You seem to be fixated on the notion of your being banned. Why is that? |
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VoiceOfReason
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:12 am Post subject: |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: | | You seem to be fixated on the notion of your being banned. Why is that? |
Because I've found that a lot of times on message boards that are dominated by political partisans, there is often a strong backlash against anyone who doesn't unhesitatingly spout the party line, or for that matter says anything critical of a friendly organization.
After my first post here, I received a warning from you. You seem to have edited it out. But it didn't at all make me less worried that I might get banned. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Actually it was after about your third post...but why quibble. What time is it where you are? |
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VoiceOfReason
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:20 am Post subject: |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: | | Actually it was after about your third post...but why quibble. What time is it where you are? |
Bedtime. Good night, and I sincerely hope that some of these affidavits we've heard so much about get posted to the front page this weekend. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:24 am Post subject: |
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| Now THAT'S reasonable. |
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jack white
Seaman
Joined: 04 Aug 2004
Posts: 179
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| Posted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 7:25 am Post subject: |
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Voice of (T)Reason writes:
<<You seem to be fixated on the notion of your being banned. Why is that?<<
Hmmm...could it be the DNC threats to the television stations that were scheduled to broadcast this commercial? Or it that paranoia?
Your people screwed up, VOR, when they tried to suppress this spot. What could have been a minor irritation has become a PR nightmare, and the SBVT didn't really cause it. The next time you curse an old dude who cuts you off, think twice. |
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