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Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
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 Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 1:33 am Post subject: We Need A Fence! Illegal Immigration Is Out Of Control |
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Emphasis mine: Great site that truly explains the problems involved in illegal immigration and goes one step farther than other sites, it offers a solution!
We Need A Fence! Illegal Immigration Is Out Of Control
The Fence:
What kind of fence are we proposing?
(Image deleted)
note: Please re-size images to a maximum width of 600 pixels. Thanks/me#1
The Problem:
Understanding the illegal immigration problem: [Learn More]
We Need A Fence!
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The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!" |
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Schadow
Vice Admiral
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 936
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:37 am Post subject: |
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I think I would make the dead zone a little wider with the addition of mines, or at least the suggestion of mines, with copious signs stating "¡Peligro! Minas explosivas." 
Schadow
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Capt, 8th U.S. Army, Korea '53 - '54 |
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PhantomSgt
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 972
Location: GUAM, USA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 9:08 am Post subject: |
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Put several thousand hungry Pit Bulls in the center for dramatic effect.
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Retired AF E-8
Independent that leans right of center. |
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sdmoel
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 02 Sep 2004
Posts: 44
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| Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2005 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| How much would something like this cost. I can't even imagine. |
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PhantomSgt
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 972
Location: GUAM, USA
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| sdmoel wrote: | | How much would something like this cost. I can't even imagine. |
Far less than the annual billions of dollars paid by the states and federal governments on illegal immigrants and their support. We should break even within a couple years after erecting the fence.
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Retired AF E-8
Independent that leans right of center. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | SOMETHING there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
"Mending Wall" by Robert Frost |
We already have a wall. It's called "The Law", and it's the application of that Law that needs mending, not some medieval monstrosity the length of our southern border. |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| As much as I agree we need to stem the tide of Illegal Immigrants, seeing the proposed wall instantly reminded me of the fences I patrolled between Western Germany and Eastern Germany and Chzecklosovokia (sp). Of course, theirs were to keep their people in. |
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Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
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| Posted: Thu Dec 15, 2005 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Me#1You#10 wrote: | | Quote: | SOMETHING there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun;
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
"Mending Wall" by Robert Frost |
We already have a wall. It's called "The Law", and it's the application of that Law that needs mending, not some medieval monstrosity the length of our southern border. |
You make a very well made point. Having said that, it made me re-think this issue about the wall. If we do not as you put it, "The Law", and it's application of that Law that needs mending," I would imagine the wall would not be the best solution. IMHO the only reason we hear about putting up the wall is because our government does not mend the Law, they actually find ways themselves to break it. People are frustrated and when a government allows its people to become as frustrated as those on the southern borders are, you get The Minutemen, and like organizations polarizing for a "wall". I find it rather sad.
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Anker-Klanker
Admiral
Joined: 04 Sep 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Richardson, TX
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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There are lots of "simple-minded" solutions (IMHO) being offered, but none of them really address the underlying problem, and failing that, none will be successful. (Have no doubt about it - I'm for anything that will solve the problem, or at least seriously abate it.)
First of all, whatever we do, it will have to be maintained for years and years - and perhaps forever. The solution is not a quick, one-time, few weeks or few months effort.
The Wall, in whatever form it takes, will be tremendously expensive to build, but that's not the end of it. It will also have to be maintained - forever, remember! - and improved - to foil human ingenuity's capacity to get through it, over it, under it, or around it. But at least temporarily, it would slow down illegal immigration, but not stop it.
Now if I were an enterprising entrepreneur with no conscience, knowing that such a wall were going to be built, know what I'd do? I'd invest in boats that could regularly ply the coasts of Texas (& LA & MS), and California to deliver human cargo from Mexico around that wall. So much for the effectiveness of such a wall or fence to solve the illegal immigration problem...
The illegal immigration problem - from Mexico and Central America, anyway - is very much the old supply and demand problem. There is simply NO WAY that it can be stopped until, somehow, it becomes much less attractive for illegal immigrants (a.k.a. "cheap labor") to come to the US. The magnet or demand side of the equation is all the thousands and thousands of small businesses that hire them (contrary to another myth, it's not generally "big" business - it's our friends and neighbors in our own communities, and us, when we patronize such businesses). Find a way to kill the demand and the problem will be largely solved; conversely, it emphatically will not be solved until the demand side of the equation is "fixed." (It's just like the miserably failed "War on Drugs".) And destroying another myth in this controversy, it's really not a Federal problem, it's very much a local one! (when one recognizes that The Problem is the demand for cheap labor).
IMHO, when the problem is analyzed and correctly attributed, I'm not at all sure that we're ready to deal with this - because - bottom line - the problem is "us." |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Fri Dec 16, 2005 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Anker-Klanker wrote: |
IMHO, when the problem is analyzed and correctly attributed, I'm not at all sure that we're ready to deal with this - because - bottom line - the problem is "us." |
Spot-on Anker...well written. Unfortunately, you'll never lose any money underestimating the ease with which the house can turn with the prevailing political wind....
| Quote: | US House votes to wall up Mexico border
Fri Dec 16, 2:43 AM ET
WASHINGTON (AFP) - The House of Representatives voted to build a wall along the US border with Mexico to stop illegal immigration.
The 260-159 voice vote on an amendment to a bill on illegal immigration "mandates the construction of specific security fencing, including lights and cameras, along the Southwest border for the purposes of gaining operational control of the border.
"Fencing has been designated in sectors that have the highest number of immigrant deaths, instances of drug smuggling and illegal border crossings," because of the large number of would-be immigrants who die in the desert attempting to cross the US border.
The US border with Canada was not forgotten. The bill "includes a requirement for the Secretary of Homeland Security to conduct a study on the use of physical barriers along the Northern border."
The US-Mexico border is 3,200 kilometers (2,000 miles) long.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051216/pl_afp/uspoliticsmigrationmexico_051216073139 |
...and here's a longer offering from the NYT...
| Quote: | House Votes for 698 Miles of Fences on Mexico Border
By RACHEL L. SWARNS
December 16, 2005
WASHINGTON, Dec. 15 - House Republicans voted on Thursday night to toughen a border security bill by requiring the Department of Homeland Security to build five fences along 698 miles of the United States border with Mexico to block the flow of illegal immigrants and drugs into this country.
The amendment to the bill would require the construction of the fences along stretches of land in California, New Mexico, Texas and Arizona that have been deemed among the most porous corridors of the border.
The vote on the amendment was a victory for conservatives who had long sought to build such a fences along the Mexican border. But the vote was sharply assailed by Democrats, who compared the fences to the Berlin Wall in Germany. Twelve Republicans also voted against the amendment.
Representative David Dreier, Republican of California, hailed the fences as a necessary tool to ensure border security. Construction of the barriers is to include two layers of reinforced fencing, cameras, lighting and sensors near Tecate and Calexico on the California border; Columbus, N.M.; and El Paso, Del Rio, Eagle Pass, Laredo and Brownsville in Texas.
The border security bill, which cracks down on illegal immigration and now mandates the construction of the fences, is expected to pass the House on Friday.
"Border fences are a security tool with proven results," Mr. Dreier said. "This amendment allows us to target our federal resources where they are needed most: five specific border crossings with the highest number of immigrant deaths, instances of drug smuggling and illegal crossings.
The vote on the amendment came on a day when the tough border security bill survived an unexpected tactical challenge from several Republicans. The bill was criticized by some moderates because it does not grant millions of undocumented workers the right to work temporarily in the United States and by some conservatives who argued that the measure was not tough enough.
The unusual revolt highlighted the schism within the Republican Party over the volatile issue of immigration. Business leaders, traditional allies of the party, have lobbied fiercely against the bill, which contains strict employment verification requirements that many executives view as a burden.
Republican leaders stamped out the rebellion after an emergency meeting. But one Republican, Jim Kolbe of Arizona, said he and his allies would continue to try to stop the bill, which has been endorsed by the Republican leadership and some conservatives but attacked by business executives, church leaders and advocates for immigrants.
The bill would require mandatory detention of many immigrants, stiffen the penalties for employers who hire them and broaden the immigrant-smuggling statute to include employees of social service agencies and church groups who offer services to undocumented workers.
It would not create the temporary guest worker program that President Bush has urged to legalize the status of the 11 million illegal immigrants believed to be living in this country.
Seeking to sink the legislation, several Republicans took the tactical step on Thursday of voting against a rule that had to pass to allow the measure to go up for a vote. Some conservatives, who felt the bill was not tough enough, also voted against the rule.
"Unfortunately, the bill before us today does nothing to solve the real problems of immigration," Mr. Kolbe told lawmakers. "But we are going to go down this path, continue this charade, continue lying to the American people, continue pretending we are doing something to prevent illegal immigration."
In addition to Mr. Kolbe, six other Republicans voted against the rule: Representatives Fred Upton of Michigan, Christopher Shays of Connecticut, Jim Leach of Iowa, Heather A. Wilson of New Mexico, J.D. Hayworth of Arizona, and John Hostettler of Indiana.
Mr. Kolbe spoke as faxed letters from the United States Chamber of Commerce warned lawmakers that in its annual ratings of members of Congress, it would penalize any legislator who voted for the rule that would allow the measure to go to the floor for a vote.
By midafternoon, the party's leaders had beaten back the challenge, at least for the day. Representative F. James Sensenbrenner Jr., Republican of Wisconsin, sharply criticized those expressing support for what many conservatives describe as an amnesty for illegal immigrants.
"This bill doesn't give amnesty to illegal aliens and it shouldn't because that would reward someone for breaking our laws," said Mr. Sensenbrenner, who had introduced the border security bill.
NY Times |
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