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MrYack
Seaman Recruit

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Columbia SC

Posted: Sat Dec 31, 2005 10:16 pm Post subject: theoretical vs demonstrated

Quote:

The Islamofacist Terrorists slaughtering innocents today are hiding behind their perversion of the Qur’an, not unlike groups of the past who have hidden behind and justified oppression of women and slavery of the Black people by their perversion of the Holy Bible.

I could be wrong here, but I think it was the Christians of the day who fought against slavery in activities such as the "underground reilroad".

Today, however, we have radical Islam involved in slavery, in Darfur, I believe.

Here's my dilemma in trying to figure out how to think about this subject:
- You are correct, Lew, in your assertions about generalizations; not denegraging our service people; and possible simialrities to other religous abuses in the past.

- However, from the Phillipines, Bali, Australia, Ethopia, Sudan, Pakistan, Chechnya, Boania/Kosovo, Iraq, Spain, England, New York ... we see, in practice, that Islam is being used in the manner attributed by the Koran passages cited earlier. And I think we see no pervasive denunciation by other segments of Islam.

So, while your argument seems to be correct on a philosophical level, I cannot reconcile it with what I see demonstrated at a pratical level.

LewWaters
Admin

Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:46 am Post subject:

Quote:

I could be wrong here, but I think it was the Christians of the day who fought against slavery in activities such as the "underground reilroad".

Indeed it was, MrYack. However, it was also Christians of the Day enslaving them. Groups such as the Ku Klux Klan also claimed scriptural high ground in their actions against the Blacks throughout the 20th Century and some White Supremacist groups even today claim scriptural backing for their views.

Which brings me back to what I originally said, various groups have misused and misinterpreted Holy Books to fit their own views throughout history.

The animosity between religions on this earth is not new, it has been going on forever. The worst part is that when we get right down to it our actual teachings aren’t all that different.

To hold any one entire group responsible due to the actions of a minority is simply wrong. We know that not all Christians are Klan members nor do they all wish a return to the witch-hunts or inquisitions of centuries ago. Yet, if others viewed us Christians as we seem to be viewing them that is exactly what all Christians are like.

We viewed Japanese as all bad and interned them during WW2. Yet, when allowed to fight in Europe, they defended our country with a zeal many others did not have.

Blacks were seen as even less capable of fighting then. Yet, they too, once allowed, performed with bravery and courage unparalled, fighting for a country that declared them second-class. Even during the Civil War, Black slaves fought on the side of the Confederacy protecting their homeland, even though it had made them slaves and mistreated them.

To me, repeating this with all Muslims today is just that, a repeat of past errors that was wrong then and is wrong today. Arabs and Muslims have fought defending America in every single war this country has fought. They died right alongside of Christians and Jews defending our ways. And now, we wish to declare them as lower beings associated with Bin Ladin?

Never forget, there are a lot of Iraqi Muslims dieing and fighting against Al Qaeda today. Their sacrifice cannot be any less than others in this fight.

As for denunciations, all you need do is look for them, they are out there, even if our leftstream media chooses to ignore them.

PhantomSgt
Vice Admiral

Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 972
Location: GUAM, USA

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 1:22 am Post subject:

We will lose this War on Terror if we try to fight a 21st Century War against a group who is living life in the 1st Century. _________________ Retired AF E-8 Independent that leans right of center.

MrYack
Seaman Recruit

Joined: 22 Aug 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Columbia SC

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:08 am Post subject:

Quote:

You are absolutely correct, LewWaters.
I just absolutely ignored, forgot, didn't consider groups like the KKK.
My bad.

GM Strong
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy

Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1579
Location: Penna

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:19 am Post subject:

PhantomSgt wrote:

We will lose this War on Terror if we try to fight a 21st Century War against a group who is living life in the 1st Century.

These are the finest minds of the 10th Century. In many ways, things were a bit more civil in the 1st before Jihad was invented.
_________________
8th Army Korea 68-69

GM Strong
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy

Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1579
Location: Penna

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:23 am Post subject:

MrYack wrote:

Quote:

You are absolutely correct, LewWaters.
I just absolutely ignored, forgot, didn't consider groups like the KKK.
My bad.

Please do not equate KKK (Senator Byrd was one.), White Supremecists etc as Christian people of faith. It was a ruse if they invoked scripture just as the same as Jihadi's are doing now. Fanatics are fanatics no matter if of a religous affiliation or atheistic Communists, anarchists or Dictators.
_________________
8th Army Korea 68-69

LewWaters
Admin

Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:27 am Post subject:

Quote:

Fanatics are fanatics no matter if of a religous affiliation or atheistic Communists, anarchists or Dictators.

This is my point, GM. Every group has fanatics and they have misused teachings to further their own ill conceived plans. Innocents that do not adhere to their fanaticism should not be lumped into the same realm as the fanatics.

GM Strong
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy

Joined: 18 Sep 2004
Posts: 1579
Location: Penna

Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject:

LewWaters wrote:

Quote:

Fanatics are fanatics no matter if of a religous affiliation or atheistic Communists, anarchists or Dictators.

Affirmative. Too many make the guilt by association jump and get it all wrong.
_________________
8th Army Korea 68-69

Bob51
Seaman

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:34 am Post subject:

LewWaters wrote:

various groups have misused and misinterpreted Holy Books to fit their own views throughout history.

... when we get right down to it our actual teachings aren’t all that different.

Lew,

I think you would find the article: "The Zeal of Phinehas - The Bible and the Legitimation of Violence by John J Collins" very interesting given your rational approach to investigations on this topic.

http://www.sbl-site.org/Publications/JBL/JBL1221.pdf

It's somewhat ironic that Islam sites and discussion fora took umbrage at the idea that the Quran was anywhere near as strong in endorsing violence as the Bible...

Quote:

There's nothing quite so hypocritical as an Evangelical Christian criticizing the Qur'an for (allegedly) advocating indiscriminate violence. In order to participate in this exercise in self-delusion, one not only has to turn a blind-eye to the unambiguous views of 1,400 years of mainstream Islamic scholarship, but it's necessary to pass over quite a number of explicit verses in the Bible and large portions of Christian history as well. This is discussed in a forthright and learned manner by a Yale University scholar in the following article published in the Journal of Biblical Literature:

The Zeal of Phinehas: The Bible and the Legitimation of Violence

However, in spite of the overall merits of this article, it seems that the author couldn't quell the temptation to take a swipe at the scripture of Islam. After informing us of a view that holds that the Bible is the "most dangerous" of all books, the author opines that "…other books, notably the Qur'an, are surely as lethal". Well this statement is "not quite true", regardless of the author's claim, since even though both the Bible and the Qur'an have been abused and misinterpreted, if one looks at history there's no way to justify the statement that the Qur'an is "as lethal".

http://www.mereislam.info/2004/10/bible-and-legitimation-of-violence.html

The comment tree reflects the usual disagreements over which misguided adherents of competing holy texts can claim divine sanction for their murderous impulses. Of course, there but for the grace of God go all of us...

Bob51

LewWaters
Admin

Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:53 am Post subject:

Quote:

The comment tree reflects the usual disagreements over which misguided adherents of competing holy texts can claim divine sanction for their murderous impulses.

Interesting discussion over there. Of course, many still don't get it, from either religion. If decent people from both religions could put their religious prejudices aside and join forces, terrorists wouldn't stand a chance.

Just as the ledership of the Democratic party are today politicizing the war on terror to regain power, too many from religion politicize the other religion to hopefully also gain power.

Bob51
Seaman

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:08 am Post subject:

It's a strange world when Islamic scholars are recommending that good Muslims should read C.S. Lewis.... (not sure which smiley matches this discovery)

Quote:

a couple of months ago a traditional Islamic scholar that I respect immensely recommended reading The Screwtape Letters to the Muslims attending his class. This was done in the context of a discussion about understanding how the Devil works and how he deceives us, and this erudite scholar felt Lewis’ book would be valuable in this regard.

http://www.mereislam.info/2004/09/ziauddin-sardar-c-s-lewis-and-mere.html

Bob51
Seaman

Joined: 13 Jan 2005
Posts: 156
Location: Belfast

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:17 am Post subject:

Here's another interesting piece on how "the other side" sees it:

Quote:

"the idea to "kill everyone" was an idea that the Old Testament brought to the Middle East long before Muslims showed up. I wonder if Ann has ever read the Old Testament? Hasn't Ann Coulter ever heard of the Crusades? As far as I know, the only religious text which contains a story of a God-approved murder-suicide of civilians is the story of Samson in the Bible (Judges 16:23-30). Even in recent times, the largest massacre of civilians in the Middle East was carried out by Philangist Meronite Christians in Lebanon (with Israeli assistance, of course). This more than proves my case, since Ann didn't present any evidence to support hers. In regards to religions who like to "kill everyone", dare I mention the fact that the Hutus and Tutsis, who savagely massacred each other several years ago, were overwhelmingly Christians who lived in a country which contained Africa's highest percentage of Christians? Need I mention the blood thirsty Serbs who used a three-fingered Trinitarian salute when massacring tens of thousands of Bosnian Muslims?

Needless to say, and this might stretch Ann's ability to reason to the limit, if the Muslims had "killed everyone" when they conquered the Middle East, the Lebanese Christians who massacred about 1,800 Palestinians back in 1982 would not even have existed. Perhaps Ann would enjoy reading what happened to non-Christians and non-Christian religions that refused to accept Christianity back during the Dark Ages. It might ease her conscious to know that these forced conversions and massacres were sometimes based on St. Augustine's understanding of Luke 14:23 "...compel them to come in, that my house may be filled". "

http://www.mereislam.info/2004/09/why-does-ann-coulter-think-that-jesus.html

LewWaters
Admin

Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 8:20 am Post subject:

Maybe it shows that they are just as varied as we are. I did notice doing my digging for earlier replies here that several Imans issued fatwas against terror, several others issued fatwas saying it was okay for Muslims to fight and kill fanatical Muslim terrorists and still more Imans issued fatwas saying it wasn't okay. It makes me believe these fatwas aren't as rigid as we make them out to be.

PhantomSgt
Vice Admiral

Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 972
Location: GUAM, USA

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 11:23 am Post subject:

LewWaters wrote:

Maybe it shows that they are just as varied as we are. Confused

I did notice doing my digging for earlier replies here that several Imans issued fatwas against terror, several others issued fatwas saying it was okay for Muslims to fight and kill fanatical Muslim terrorists and still more Imans issued fatwas saying it wasn't okay. It makes me believe these fatwas aren't as rigid as we make them out to be. Wink

As we try to figure out who’s on first when it comes to religion. Millions of young Muslim males around the world are sitting in Saudi Wahabbi Sect sponsored Madrassas studying the Qur’an. They are not sitting there reading passages and thinking of peace on earth, goodwill toward men or anything remotely like what you or I think of at a church school.

They are thinking of the 610 A.D. when the Prophet Muhammad had his first sit down meeting in a cave with the Angel Gabriel; a messenger sent to Muhammad from Allah the one true God. The extent of their study is until the year 632 A.D. when Muhammad passed over to heaven. During a period of twenty-two years Muhammad (who could not read or write) would come from his visitations and tell the messages he received to his followers who documented the meetings into text that would eventually become the Qur’an.

Classical Islamic teachings of this 22-year period are not the only subject matter taught in the school. Later religious texts, interpretations, edicts and the “struggle” of Islam are also contained in the curriculum. Students may attend these schools for years until they can recite the Qur’an by heart, chapter and verse.

The students are not being taught to be Jihadists, yet they are not discouraged from following that path of Jihad if they so choose. Training for Jihad is a graduate course that is now being taught by their local terrorist organization. In the past there were scholarship opportunities to study Jihad sponsored by the Taliban regime in Afghanistan or the Sudan. Once the grad schools were closed by the US invasion and Sudanese regime, the training became more localized.

These schools have been in existence for decades and tens of millions have received the Wahabbi “stamp of approval” and indoctrination. How many of these Whabbi students went on to a Jihadist Grad School somewhere? That is the unknown that should worry us all in the West.

Cool

_________________
Retired AF E-8

Independent that leans right of center.

Me#1You#10
Site Admin

Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503

Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:13 pm Post subject:

Mark Steyn's "It's the demography, stupid" weighs-in on the clash of cultures and is not optimistic. It's getting some blog attention and is recommended reading...

Quote:

It’s the demography, stupid
By Mark Steyn

Most people reading this have strong stomachs, so let me lay it out as baldly as I can: Much of what we loosely call the western world will survive this century, and much of it will effectively disappear within our lifetimes, including many if not most western European countries.

The New Criterion - cont'd

Last edited by Me#1You#10 on Tue Jan 03, 2006 7:56 am; edited 1 time in total

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