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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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 Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:00 pm Post subject: Is Haditha symptomatic of a cancerous ROE? |
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Two Delta snipers posthumously received the MOH for their actions in Mogadishu and if I recall correctly they killed a lot of women and children.
Is it possible Haditha is a symptom of a cancerous rules of engagement policy?
Did Haditha need more dead on our side to be politically correct for the troops. If this is the case then the politics being played right now concerning this engagement might possibly damage our ability to wage this war.
edit: removed - Shouldn't our military have a right to kill everything in sight when under attack?
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"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy
Last edited by GenrXr on Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:53 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:37 pm Post subject: Re: Is Haditha symptomatic of a cancerous ROE? |
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| GenrXr wrote: | Is it possible Haditha is a symptom of a cancerous rules of engagement policy? Shouldn't our military have a right to kill everything in sight when under attack?
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I don't believe military service conveys a "right to kill". An obligation and a duty on certain occassions, but not a right.
"Kill everthing in sight". No. Only those who can be legitmately perceived to be a threat. There is always a legal and moral obligation to protect non-combatants. That's the difference between us and them.
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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BuffaloJack
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1637
Location: Buffalo, New York
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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GenrXr,
Your post is dangerously close to trying the Haditha incident marines in a public forum. It's probably not your intent but it reads out this way.
What happened at Haditha is a matter best left to a military board of inquiry. It is their responsibility to gather the evidence, take depositions, review the events of the day and evaluate events leading up to the incident. Anything else does everyone an injustice.
Rules of engagement are what they are. It this incident brings about changes, so be it, but there are rules that our fighting men must comply with. Whether the marines in question violated the rules of engagement or not is a matter for the board of inquiry to decide. And they will decide. Speculation on anyone elses part is non-productive and just helps the enemy.
Jack
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Swift Boats - Qui Nhon (12/69-4/70), Cat Lo (4/70-5/70), Vung Tau (5/70-12/71) |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: Re: Is Haditha symptomatic of a cancerous ROE? |
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| JN173 wrote: | | GenrXr wrote: | Is it possible Haditha is a symptom of a cancerous rules of engagement policy? Shouldn't our military have a right to kill everything in sight when under attack?
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I don't believe military service conveys a "right to kill". An obligation and a duty on certain occassions, but not a right.
"Kill everthing in sight". No. Only those who can be legitmately perceived to be a threat. There is always a legal and moral obligation to protect non-combatants. That's the difference between us and them. |
Did our troops break the moral line in Mogadishu when they gave the order to kill everything in sight? The order was given by one of the Delta after 30 minutes of Captain Steele trying to get authorization from General Garrison to shoot women and children being used as shields.
Bowden makes it clear that once that order was given everything in sight was shot and those distinctions were no longer relevant because of the situation they faced.
If our troops are faced with a similar situation in Iraq and make the same call do they need to suffer more casualties before it becomes politically correct?
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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GenrXr
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 1720
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| BuffaloJack wrote: | GenrXr,
Your post is dangerously close to trying the Haditha incident marines in a public forum. It's probably not your intent but it reads out this way.
What happened at Haditha is a matter best left to a military board of inquiry. It is their responsibility to gather the evidence, take depositions, review the events of the day and evaluate events leading up to the incident. Anything else does everyone an injustice.
Rules of engagement are what they are. It this incident brings about changes, so be it, but there are rules that our fighting men must comply with. Whether the marines in question violated the rules of engagement or not is a matter for the board of inquiry to decide. And they will decide. Speculation on anyone elses part is non-productive and just helps the enemy.
Jack |
My intent is to imply two things.
Is it possible we have a ROE, which is tying our soldiers and marines hands behind their backs and do they have to worry about politics being played prior to any engagement they face?
Furthermore, I believe they should be treated in the same respect as their fellow brethren have in past instances such as the Mogudishu incident.
Mai Lai keeps being discussed in the media, yet this incident seems more like Mogudisho where we gave awards not investigations.
_________________
"An activist is the person who cleans up the water, not the one claiming its dirty."
"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to stand by and do nothing." Edmund Burke (1729-1797), Founder of Conservative Philosophy |
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JN173
Commander
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 341
Location: Anchorage, Alaska
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 5:33 pm Post subject: Re: Is Haditha symptomatic of a cancerous ROE? |
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| GenrXr wrote: |
Did our troops break the moral line in Mogadishu when they gave the order to kill everything in sight? |
Not having been there I'm not going to make a "moral" judgement here. But if the orders were given in those terms, i.e. "shoot everything in sight", and assuming there was no other conflict with the ROE's, if the individual issuing the order truely perceived "everything in sight" to be a threat the orders would be 'legal'. Otherwise they would be 'illegal' (see Nuremburg).
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A Grunt
2/503 173rd Airborne Brigade
RVN '65-'66 |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Any and all conjecture on our part does not help either these marines or those investigating the incident. Our drive-by leftstream media is trying this in the court of public opinion with the help of people like Jack Murtha.
As stated earlier, this is best left to the investigation teams actually looking into just what happened.
In the meantime, let's afford these Marines the same assumption of innocent until proven guilty anyone else is afforded.
Rules of engagement are what they are stuck with. If the investigations show a need to change, they will be changed, I'm sure.
On a side note, this can quickly turn to a very emotional topic. Let's stay civil and present views consistent with our values as Veterans and Americans. |
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homesteader
PO3
Joined: 17 Sep 2004
Posts: 294
Location: wisconsin
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| Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:59 am Post subject: |
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The facts about what happened are the facts. The inquiry will sort it all out and appropriate action regarding punishment (if warrented) and ROE will follow.
What is devistating about this whole affair is the media and publicity circus that those who have political points to score have created. Many innocent Iraqi's are going to die at the hands of the terrorists during and following any future engagement with our troops. The blame will be placed on our troops. They will follow our troops on routine patrols or raids and create massacre scenes which they will document and publicize with all the finesse of their Hollywood and media allies. I bet M. Moore is already making plans and is hunting for the kid who took the videos in Haditha.
Incidently.....why all the fuss about this incident by the anti-war/anti-Bush crowd. Isn't what they say happened in Haditha what they say has been going on in all of Iraq since the beginning of the war? Why all the extra outrage now? Their reaction to a real (if true) massacre exposes as phoney all their crocodile tears over what they have been calling a genocide by our troops since day one. |
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SBD
Admiral
Joined: 19 Aug 2004
Posts: 1022
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| Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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Every news report I have read from that timeframe says that the mission was a joint operation with Iraqi forces. Seems odd that the Iraqi forces would not oppose such a massacre and rather joined in it instead.
| Quote: | PNG Post--Courier
November 21, 2005 Monday
SECTION: WORLD NEWS; Pg. 3
LENGTH: 339 words
HEADLINE: 15 slain in patrol ambush
BODY:
BAGHDAD: An ambush on a joint US--Iraqi patrol north--west of Baghdad left 15 civilians, eight insurgents and a US Marine dead from a roadside bomb and the firefight that followed, a US military statement said yesterday.
The attack began with an improvised explosive device detonating next to the Marine s vehicle in the town of Haditha, 220km north--west of Baghdad, yesterday, the US command said.
Fifteen civilians were also killed by the blast, which was followed by an insurgent attack with small arms fire, the statement said.
Iraqi army soldiers and Marines returned fire, killing eight insurgents and wounding another, the statement said.
Also yesterday, a suicide bomber detonated his car in a crowd of Shi ite mourners north of Baghdad, killing 36 people and raising the death toll in two days of attacks against Shi ites to more than 120.
The bomb exploded late in the afternoon as mourners offered condolences to Raad Majid, head of the municipal council in the village of Abu Saida, over the death of his uncle. Abu Saida is near Baqouba, a religiously mixed city 56km northeast of Baghdad. Police said about 50 people were injured.
On October 29, a bomb hidden in a truck loaded with dates exploded in another Shi ite community in the same area, killing 30 people.
Ambulances streamed into the main hospital in Baqouba ferrying the wounded from yesterday s blast; many were rushed directly into operating rooms where doctors worked frantically to save them.
Hospital facilities were so crowded that dazed and bloodied survivors many with serious injuries lay in agony on gurneys in the hallways because of the surgery backlog.
Doctors and nurses in blood--spattered white uniforms rushed from gurney to gurney trying to determine who to treat first.
Also yesterday, gunmen kidnapped two young women who work at an Iraqi army base from their home in Tikrit, 180km north of Baghdad. Witnesses said three gunmen burst into the home of Najat and Saada Hayawi, who work for an Iraqi base.
LOAD--DATE: November 21, 2005
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| Quote: |
The Frontrunner
November 21, 2005 Monday
SECTION: INTERNATIONAL NEWS
LENGTH: 158 words
HEADLINE: Eight US Soldiers Killed In Iraq As Violence Continues
ABC World News Tonight (11/20, story 3, 2:35, Woodruff) reported that in Iraq, "eight US troops were killed in several incidents this weekend." USA Today /AP (11/21) adds "a British soldier was killed by a roadside bomb in the south."
In addition, says the New York Times (11/21, Wong), "15 Iraqi civilians and a United States marine were killed on Saturday when a roadside bomb exploded in the town of Haditha, 140 miles northwest of Baghdad.
At least 11 other Iraqis were killed or discovered dead today in various incidents, and military officials reported the deaths of two more Americans
and a British soldier."
The deaths "capped one of the deadliest three--day periods since the American invasion. In all, at least 155 Iraqis and 7 foreign soldiers have been killed in a spate of bombings and assaults that began Friday morning, when jihadists tried using two trucks packed with explosives to demolish a Baghdad hotel full of Western journalists."
LOAD--DATE: November 21, 2005 |
SBD |
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