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We need to demand the release of all records!
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sparky
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 9:43 pm    Post subject: We need to demand the release of all records! Reply with quote

In keeping with the mission of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, I recommend that we write letters to the editor of our local newspapers. I, too, believe "it is incumbent on ALL presidential candidates to be totally honest and forthcoming regarding personal background and policy information that would help the voting public make an informed decision when choosing the next president of the United States."

In composing our letters, we need to be clear about which portions of Kerry's records haven't been released. Does anyone have the details?
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aculbertson
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 9:48 pm    Post subject: Letter to the Editor Reply with quote

Sparky,

You can find the available information on Sen. Kerry's website.
URL: http://www.johnkerry.com/communities/veterans/service.html


I am not certain what is missing. I am sure though that we will soon have members posting what is missing.

Andrew
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Manc
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2004 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Records are so last season release CDs or MP3s Laughing
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Ex-Military Capitalist
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 12:17 am    Post subject: Kerry will never release his medical records, because of the Reply with quote

boo-boo on his arm, which gave him a purple heart.

4 months service there.

Coward.
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John Kerry got a bandaid for his boo-boo, and put himself in for a Purple Heart.
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sparky
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aculbertson, I can't tell what's missing from kerry's records from that link. The liberal media is saying he released everything so before I write my letter to the editor, I need to know what's missing.

Any presidential nominee who won't release all such records should be horsewhipped with a live horse.

Does anyone here know what Kerry is missing?
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky wrote:
Does anyone here know what Kerry is missing?


Umm... honor?

A sense of duty?

Loyalty to country? To shipmates and fellow warriors in the armed forces?


Oh, you mean his records - the records posted on his web site are full of holes. The medical reports and activity reports which led to his receiving three PH's, counseling chits, release from reserve duty requirements - there's a lot more missing than is actually there.
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sparky
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"The medical reports and activity reports which led to his receiving three PH's, counseling chits, release from reserve duty requirements - there's a lot more missing than is actually there. "

His release from duty papers are on his website here:

http://www.johnkerry.com/about/Release_From_Active_Duty.pdf

It looks like he didn't have any counseling chits although his medical records are not publicly available. He allowed reporters to examine them but hasn't released them to the general public. Everyone who has viewed the material came away satisfied. In fact, Kerry still has schrapnel in his thigh.
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Me#1You#10
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky wrote:
In fact, Kerry still has schrapnel in his thigh.


In fact? And that's based upon what?

Don't you find it just a bit odd that this "shrapnel in his thigh" claim was, to my knowledge, never before asserted by Kerry who has been less than shy in touting his Vietnam record?
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sparky
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"In fact? And that's based upon what? "

Over 400 news accounts saying yes and none saying "no." I find it too incredible to think that it's all a liberal media conspiracy. I also don't know that Kerry hasn't before mentioned this, although saying you've got shrapnel in your butt isn't something most people boast about.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&edition=us&ie=UTF-8&q=kerry+shrapnel+thigh

Journalists who saw his medical records report that examiners determined that removing the shrapnel would require a large incision and that it was safer and preferable to leave it in.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

His release from active duty is on his web site.

Was he released from the Reserve component to which he agreed when he accepted his commission?

There were some activity reports posted to his web site which turned out to be those of one of the other Swifts commanders, though, so you really can't trust what's on Kerry's site.

John Kerry said three months ago that he was going to make his service jacket available. He said on Meet The Press a couple of weeks ago that everything was already released, it was all up on his web site.

Turns out that those things were added three days after the Meet The Press interview. And it wasn't his entire service record.

When George Bush said he would release his service record, the media began hounding him about it the very next day. "When would it be available? How much was going to be released? How much longer do we have to wait?"

He finally received and released his complete records.

So, why hasn't John Kerry done the same thing?

He said he would. He's said twice now that he's going to. So, where are they?

Furthermore, where is the media hue and cry that they aren't already available?
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sparky
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bush's spokesman, Scott McClellan, acknowledged that the records that have been released don't indicate that Bush showed up for Guard duty in Alabama. The only thing indicating that he was even in Alabama are dental records. But the pay stubs haven't been released nor has mandatory written report about Bush's grounding, nor is any other disciplinary evidence. A document showing a "roll-up," or the accumulation of his total retirement points, is also absent, and so are his actual pay stubs... pay stubs and any IRS W-2 forms from his Guard years.

These can be pieced together to determine when he was paid and whether he earned enough to have met his sworn obligations.
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Me#1You#10
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2004 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sparky wrote:
"In fact? And that's based upon what? "

Over 400 news accounts saying yes and none saying "no."


Look, you wanna play devil's advocate, fair enough. It's warranted and someone should present the counterpoint. But spare us the gamesmanship, OK? Those "400 news accounts", many of which have AP or other wire service attributions, are the result of a limited viewing by 19 reporters who "travel with Kerry" and his personal physician's interpretation of those records.

Quote:
The Kerry campaign allowed 19 reporters who travel with Kerry to talk to his doctor and view the medical file for about 30 minutes. Reporters had to sign the file in and out and were not allowed to take a copy.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/23/politics1607EDT0681.DTL



Nor were those his complete military medical records, but selected copies of Kerry's own personal records. Thus far, to my knowledge, Kerry has stated only that his complete Naval medical records were "not included" in the "military file" sent by the Navy.

Quote:
This week the campaign has posted on its Web site more than 200 pages of information about Kerry's military record. The campaign said when the Navy sent Kerry his military file, it did not include his medical records, and those shown to reporters Friday were copies that Kerry had in his personal files.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2004/04/23/politics1607EDT0681.DTL


Pardon me for asking, but did Kerry even REQUEST that his complete Naval medical records be included in his petition to the Navy for his military records? If SENATOR John Forbes Kerry wanted his medical records from the Navy, you can be damn sure they would have been forthcoming. It begs the question, what is he trying to hide...and WHY? Don't blame me for the innuendo stimulation.

Quote:
I find it too incredible to think that it's all a liberal media conspiracy.


This is a pure strawman in it's finest form. Noone has or is suggesting some conspiratorial liberal media cabal. What we (I?) are (am) suggesting is that the media has exhibited a laissez-faire approach to Kerry's service record when compared to the juggernaut of investigating and probing to which Bush's service record has been subjected.

The easy solution is full release of Kerry's official Navy medical records. Why are they not forthcoming, as he stated they would be? And spare us the disingenuous "Navy didn't send them" dodge.

Quote:
I also don't know that Kerry hasn't before mentioned this, although saying you've got shrapnel in your butt isn't something most people boast about.


...especially when it's, purportedly, in your thigh. Given Kerry's undeniable predilection for touting his service record, it is almost inconceivable that he wouldn't have revealed this assertion until the onset of this medical records flap. If I might borrow a phrase, "I find it too incredible".

Quote:
Journalists who saw his medical records report that examiners determined that removing the shrapnel would require a large incision and that it was safer and preferable to leave it in.


Fair enough. Show me the documentation (ALL the documentation) and I'll yield the point. Until that time, I'm from Missouri.
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sparky
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
"Look, you wanna play devil's advocate, fair enough. It's warranted and someone should present the counterpoint. But spare us the gamesmanship, OK? Those "400 news accounts", many of which have AP or other wire service attributions, are the result of a limited viewing by 19 reporters who "travel with Kerry" and his personal physician's interpretation of those records."


I dunno. I just can't accept the following scenario:

Those 19 reporters were aware of irregularities in his records but for some reason are not jumping on the scoop of a lifetime for reasons similar to how nobody who was there in Vietnam has come forward to unmask the phony "shrapnel in the thigh" story. Those who served with him at the time are part of this as well. Somehow those 19 journalists, who are either incompetent or corrupt, were credible enough for ~400 news organizations to print their findings. Those reporters are also not mentioning that those were not his complete Vietnam-era records.

So far, however, nobody is credibly doubting his wounds.

Quote:
"Pardon me for asking, but did Kerry even REQUEST that his complete Naval medical records be included in his petition to the Navy for his military records? If SENATOR John Forbes Kerry wanted his medical records from the Navy, you can be damn sure they would have been forthcoming. It begs the question, what is he trying to hide...and WHY? Don't blame me for the innuendo stimulation."


Nope. He didn't request his complete naval medical records be released to the public. He's not trying to hide anything but believes that it would set a bad precedent for something as personal as doctor/patient confidentiality and privacy to be violated as a standard part of running for president. He compromised and allowed those journalists to view the files instead.

This is similar to the Bush's campaign's rationale and practices where the reporters had 10 less minutes but the circumstances were the same.

So, as far as medical records go, both campaigns are roughly "on par." However, Kerry has released far more when it comes to nonmedical records. There's no doubt where he was and when he was there. We can't say the same thing about Bush, who will not authorize the complete release of that information.

I still find it too incredible to think that it's all a liberal media conspiracy. And yes, throughout this conference, the media is described as passing up opportunities for some strange reason to nail Kerry, sometimes with the word "liberal" before media. The idea, similar to whisper campaigns about McCain having been brainwashed by the Viet Cong, is to create doubt in the mind of voters who don't have the time to bother looking further into such matters.

Part of the reason Kerry's records are not getting much attention is that there aren't any serious questions about them. There are no holes, no disciplinary action, no pilot groundings, no contradictions between where his campaign says he was and where his records say he was. Not so with Bush. Scott McClellan was clear in stating that the records released so far do not show that Bush showed up for Guard duty in Alabama.

Quote:
"The easy solution is full release of Kerry's official Navy medical records. Why are they not forthcoming, as he stated they would be? And spare us the disingenuous "Navy didn't send them" dodge."


I missed that dodge. Is someone at the Kerry campaign saying that they asked for the records but that the navy didn't send them? I find this doubtful since the Kerry campaign has been explicit in explaining why they're not making his medical records fully public and it's not "because the navy didn't send them."

Both Bush and Kerry have done roughly the same thing about what is otherwise a personal matter. The consensus everywhere except in conspiracy-land is to accept that medical records are as private as
candidates want them to be.

As for his shrapnel wounds, I don't think Kerry felt it necessary to elaborate -- at least not until the silly accusation was flung that he didn't deserve his purple hearts. So naturally, the campaign dampened those accusations by showing the records to competent journalists.

Douglas Brinkley mentions it in his biography so it's not a "new" news item.

Where are you going with this? Kerry never mentioned this before. His doctor and 19 journalists say they saw the documents, but they're not fully available online. Hmmmmm, he must be hiding something!

Quote:
Fair enough. Show me the documentation (ALL the documentation) and I'll yield the point. Until that time, I'm from Missouri.


Neither Bush nor Kerry has the documentation available to the extent you demand.
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Navy_Navy_Navy
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What the heck would a bunch of reporters know about Kerry's records that he didn't point out to them or want them to know?

Unless you were a Personnelman or someone very familiar with the Navy forms and codes of the day, you woudn't even know what you're looking at.
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sparky
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue that led to this was whether he deserved the purple hearts. It's unfortunate that reporters had to dig through his medical records but they did determine that he had legitimate injuries (the Kennedys notwithstanding).

I doubt those forms required that much training to understand.
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