 |
SwiftVets.com
Service to Country
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Ohio Voter
PO2
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 360
|
 Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez |
 |
|
| Doll wrote: | | Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | Doll wrote: | | What news are you reading? (snip) This is not taking the higher ground--this is called stupidity. |
No, it's not called "stupidity," unless you're over on duhhhhhmie-land - it's called "diplomacy." |
Hiding behind dipolmacy failed us in the past and it is failing us now. This is a crazy world yes, and fighting every battle makes no sence, and true, in some cases diplomacy works. However, there must come a time when our leaders must do more than hide behind diplomacy and stand up to what is wrong. And fighting the war on terror is not enough. Our politics of late and our failed immigration measures is duhhhhmie-land. You cannot use DIPLOMACY with people that DO NOT know what DIPLOMACY is. 9/11 proved that and sadly we are headed towards another 9/11 at the rate this country is going. So much for this kind of 'diplomacy'.
I suggest for those that have not read this book to read it. "They Just Don't Get It" by Col. David Hunt (U.S. Army Ret.) |
Who is *hiding behind* diplomacy? And what are you calling *diplomacy?* I don't understand you at all. Who are you angry against? You seem to be going all over the place in your rant. The issue here is Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez. They are both dictators. Are you standing up for them? |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Ohio Voter
PO2
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 360
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez |
|
|
| NortonPete wrote: |
[snip]
I learned a bit about diplomacy during the many hours of grammar school detention. Someone said something about my Mother and I hit him, unfortunately a good shot. Well all the girls were helping him and hissing at me. Sister Agnes took me by the ear all the way to detention.
No one cared about what he said. |
This is a great illustration of diplomacy.  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:15 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Of course not. If you read my 'rant' I am saying that to keep quiet in the face of such dictators inulting the president and American people--that silence is not diplomacy. Taking the higher ground here in the name of diplomacy is wrong. The longer we allow the rhetoric they spew to go unchecked the worse the situation becomes. That was and is my point. As far as going all over the place-I was on target..
_________________
The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| doll wrote: | | You may find it appealing to pick apart my beliefs. However, I stand by what I wrote. I do not believe in BLIND faith. |
What? How is it that to disagree with you is to pick apart your beliefs?
You stated an opinion and I proposed another.
Good heavens, people disagree with me all the time - and when they use reason, I've been persuaded to change my position.
But, you failed to address my points, you haven't provided any substance to support your claims against the President, and instead accuse me (by inference) of having "blind faith," an argument which is both ad hominem and non sequitur.
In a debate, this is called a concession.
| Quote: | | Bush is failing us. Period. |
That's your assertion.
If you want a discussion, discuss. But, don't get upset when someone asks that you support your side of the conversation with something other than repeated and escalated assertions.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | | doll wrote: | | You may find it appealing to pick apart my beliefs. However, I stand by what I wrote. I do not believe in BLIND faith. |
What? How is it that to disagree with you is to pick apart your beliefs?
You stated an opinion and I proposed another.
Good heavens, people disagree with me all the time - and when they use reason, I've been persuaded to change my position.
But, you failed to address my points, you haven't provided any substance to support your claims against the President, and instead accuse me (by inference) of having "blind faith," an argument which is both ad hominem and non sequitur.
In a debate, this is called a concession.
| Quote: | | Bush is failing us. Period. |
That's your assertion.
If you want a discussion, discuss. But, don't get upset when someone asks that you support your side of the conversation with something other than repeated and escalated assertions. |
What part did you miss? I did state what I believe and my opinion. I do not care if anyone agrees or not. That is my opinion. I may be persuaded also to change my mind. Depending on the discussion of course. I did not address your points because I do not agree with them and also, because of forum decorum, I felt if I openly disagree it may be taken as offensive or disrespectful to you or other members-afterall, those were my opinions and not meant to disrespect anyone else's opinions.
The inference that I perhaps did not use reason to persuade anyone's opinion is ridiculous. I was not trying to change anyone's opinion, just state mine.
_________________
The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ohio Voter
PO2
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 360
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 7:58 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Doll wrote: | | Of course not. If you read my 'rant' I am saying that to keep quiet in the face of such dictators inulting the president and American people--that silence is not diplomacy. Taking the higher ground here in the name of diplomacy is wrong. The longer we allow the rhetoric they spew to go unchecked the worse the situation becomes. That was and is my point. As far as going all over the place-I was on target.. |
Thanks for clarifying. I see what you mean now. Well, some people are just better at letting things go than others. Doesn't mean they are wrong or weak, just react different. I think not dignifying Chavez with a come back equal to his is the better way to go. The American people will do what the "diplomats" can't do and that is reject him hands down. It is happening now. Of course the media is sticking a microphone in the face of idiots who spew leftist, pro Chavez, anti american rhetoric. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ohio Voter wrote: | | Doll wrote: | | Of course not. If you read my 'rant' I am saying that to keep quiet in the face of such dictators inulting the president and American people--that silence is not diplomacy. Taking the higher ground here in the name of diplomacy is wrong. The longer we allow the rhetoric they spew to go unchecked the worse the situation becomes. That was and is my point. As far as going all over the place-I was on target.. |
Thanks for clarifying. I see what you mean now. Well, some people are just better at letting things go than others. Doesn't mean they are wrong or weak, just react different. I think not dignifying Chavez with a come back equal to his is the better way to go. The American people will do what the "diplomats" can't do and that is reject him hands down. It is happening now. Of course the media is sticking a microphone in the face of idiots who spew leftist, pro Chavez, anti american rhetoric. |
Thanks Ohio Voter and I do agree with you totally. Very well said. 
_________________
The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!"
Last edited by Doll on Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ohio Voter
PO2
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 360
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:04 pm Post subject: Re: Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez |
|
|
[quote="Doll][snip]I do not believe in BLIND faith. Bush is failing us. Period.[/quote]
Instead of being so general in your comment that you believe Bush is failing us, [the USA], tell us how he is failing. He is not a dictator. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject: Q |
|
|
| Quote: | | Ohio Voter wrote: | | [quote="Doll][snip]I do not believe in BLIND faith. Bush is failing us. Period. |
Instead of being so general in your comment that you believe Bush is failing us, [the USA], tell us how he is failing. He is not a dictator. |
LOL! No of course he is NOT a dictator thank God. What I mean when I said this goes back to an earlier post in this thread when I mentioned our border situation. I, and I speak only for myself only, am extremely upset that Bush went out the front door to fight the war on terror (which I applaud him for that) but left the back door open--the southern borders. The drug lords, the drugs, the illegals, the MS-13 Gang, and al Qaida operatives have been allowed to cross into our country. I do not hold Bush responsible for the immigration debacle that took years to create, but I do question what he was thinking not securing our southern and also our northern borders after 9/11. The fact our borders were not closed, even temporarily seems irresponsible to me and that it took this long for there to be a bill along with reforms is mind boggling. I realize there is the congress and senate whom have been obstacles many times, but at the end of the day our southern border in particular is a sore point and an open portal, which leaves every American victim to a possible attack from within as on 9/11. I hope this clarifies my statement for you Ohio Voter. 
_________________
The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 8:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Doll said:
| Quote: | | Bush seems to take up unholy alliances |
A rather caustic statement.
Reading the rest of the article:
| Quote: | "I can't thank you enough for the courage you have shown," Bush told him. "I assure you that our government wants to work with you in order so that you're capable of delivering the vision that so many Palestinians long for."
The United States is warily watching Abbas' struggle to form a government, which would include both Hamas and Fatah.
A top presidential aide, Elliott Abrams of the National Security Council, said Bush stuck to his insistence that the unity government meet international demands to recognize Israel, renounce violence and accept past peace accords.
The United States has spearheaded an international aid embargo against the Palestinian Authority since Hamas took over the government earlier this year.
Washington has said it will not deal with Hamas unless it fulfills the three conditions laid down by the Quartet -- the informal group coordinating Middle East peace efforts whose members are the United States, the European Union
.
Abbas pleaded for help and support for a resumption of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.
"Mr. President, we look forward to your support and your help and your aid because we are in dire need for your help and support," he said.
'CANDID' TALKS
Abbas's aide, Nabil Abu Rdainah, called the meeting with Bush candid and in-depth and that Abbas told Bush of his efforts to form a unity government that respects previous agreements with Israel.
He also asked Bush to reactivate the long-stalled "road map" plan envisioning a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel, the aide said.
Abrams said Bush told Abbas several times he wants a way for Abbas to be able to meet with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and move toward respecting previous agreements, which Hamas does not recognize.
"The president commended him on his efforts to find a way out of a very difficult Palestinian political situation," Abrams said. "The president welcomed his efforts and told him he certainly hopes they succeed in producing a Palestinian government with which we and the others in the international community could work." |
Hardly, an 'unholy alliance'.
Abbas is a moderate who wants to recognize Israel and implement a peace plan. He is in a terribly dire situation.
Is it so wrong to extend him encouragement? What would you have the President do?
The alternative is Hamas, who wants to obliterate Israel.
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| shawa wrote: | Doll said:
| Quote: | | Bush seems to take up unholy alliances |
A rather caustic statement.
Reading the rest of the article:
| Quote: | "I can't thank you enough for the courage you have shown," Bush told him. "I assure you that our government wants to work with you in order so that you're capable of delivering the vision that so many Palestinians long for."
The United States is warily watching Abbas' struggle to form a government, which would include both Hamas and Fatah.
A top presidential aide, Elliott Abrams of the National Security Council, said Bush stuck to his insistence that the unity government meet international demands to recognize Israel, renounce violence and accept past peace accords.
The United States has spearheaded an international aid embargo against the Palestinian Authority since Hamas took over the government earlier this year.
Washington has said it will not deal with Hamas unless it fulfills the three conditions laid down by the Quartet -- the informal group coordinating Middle East peace efforts whose members are the United States, the European Union
.
Abbas pleaded for help and support for a resumption of Israeli-Palestinian peace talks.
"Mr. President, we look forward to your support and your help and your aid because we are in dire need for your help and support," he said.
'CANDID' TALKS
Abbas's aide, Nabil Abu Rdainah, called the meeting with Bush candid and in-depth and that Abbas told Bush of his efforts to form a unity government that respects previous agreements with Israel.
He also asked Bush to reactivate the long-stalled "road map" plan envisioning a Palestinian state living side by side with Israel, the aide said.
Abrams said Bush told Abbas several times he wants a way for Abbas to be able to meet with Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, and move toward respecting previous agreements, which Hamas does not recognize.
"The president commended him on his efforts to find a way out of a very difficult Palestinian political situation," Abrams said. "The president welcomed his efforts and told him he certainly hopes they succeed in producing a Palestinian government with which we and the others in the international community could work." |
Hardly, an 'unholy alliance'.
Abbas is a moderate who wants to recognize Israel and implement a peace plan. He is in a terribly dire situation.
Is it so wrong to extend him encouragement? What would you have the President do?
The alternative is Hamas, who wants to obliterate Israel. |
My opinion may be caustic Shawa, but yours is suicidal. Abbas is not a moderate. Did you not read my earlier post in this thread? His 'thesis' was that the holocaust did not happen. Also, Abbas was Arafats right hand man who said himself that the Israelis have no right to their land or to their existance. I suggest you do more reading on Abbas before you call what I say cuastic.
And btw, I do not just read, I also lived in the Middle East and can tell you first hand that Abbas is not a moderate--just ask Israel. I do not take what the press or the president says as gospel. Having been afforded to live in the Middle East has given me a first hand view and experential knowledge I would not have otherwise had just listenening to the President - our talking heads and a blind press. They are not God and do not represent the facts correctly all the time. Go to Jerusalem Post online. They are fair and balanced giving both an Israeli and Palestinian perspective.
_________________
The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Ohio Voter
PO2
Joined: 09 Aug 2004
Posts: 360
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Q |
|
|
| Doll wrote: | [
LOL! No of course he is NOT a dictator thank God. What I mean when I said this goes back to an earlier post in this thread when I mentioned our border situation. I, and I speak only for myself only, am extremely upset that Bush went out the front door to fight the war on terror (which I applaud him for that) but left the back door open--the southern borders. The drug lords, the drugs, the illegals, the MS-13 Gang, and al Qaida operatives have been allowed to cross into our country. I do not hold Bush responsible for the immigration debacle that took years to create, but I do question what he was thinking not securing our southern and also our northern borders after 9/11. The fact our borders were not closed, even temporarily seems irresponsible to me and that it took this long for there to be a bill along with reforms is mind boggling. I realize there is the congress and senate whom have been obstacles many times, but at the end of the day our southern border in particular is a sore point and an open portal, which leaves every American victim to a possible attack from within as on 9/11. I hope this clarifies my statement for you Ohio Voter. |
I am frustrated too that congress has not passed the Presidents bill to close the holes in the borders. [or have they? I don't remember] I am glad you know that immigration bill has been debated in the Senate and almost killed. That is what I meant when I said the president is not a dictator. He can only do so much of his own will. The problem is the game of politics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jwb7605
Rear Admiral
Joined: 06 Aug 2004
Posts: 690
Location: Colorado
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 9:45 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Lemme jump back in here:
| Quote: | | Bush seems to take up unholy alliances |
I consider the above unholy politics. It's about the best he can do given the players available.
| Quote: | | President Bush talks the talk and ALSO walks the walk VERY CAREFULLY, through mine fields everywhere he turns. |
Probably a lesson well learned from Iraq (which, oddly enough, I still think is a decent strategic move, although tactically screwed up at this point)
My real question is what do the clowns in question hope to gain from the alliances they're forming?
You have to be a complete idiot to think you're going to get a lasting friendship from a religious fanatic, and you don't get to be el Presidente by being a complete idiot. Which means I'm missing something interesting.
And, if Ahmadinejad did not "invite" Chavez to convert, then why? Ahmadinejad doesn't need Chavez's support or oil, and Chavez is exactly NOT the kind of guy a good religious scholar would buddy up to. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LimaCharlie
PO2
Joined: 25 Aug 2004
Posts: 386
Location: Oregon
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:04 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Theodore Rooselvelt wrote, "I have always been fond of the West African proverb: 'Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.' It looks like President Bush is following that good principle.
_________________
I was going to become an anarchist, but they had too many rules. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 21, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| LimaCharlie wrote: | | Theodore Rooselvelt wrote, "I have always been fond of the West African proverb: 'Speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.' It looks like President Bush is following that good principle. |
To a degree this is true, but Thomas Jefferson said, "Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations -- entangling alliances with none."
_________________
The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
