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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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 Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Doll said:
| Quote: | My opinion may be caustic Shawa, but yours is suicidal. Abbas is not a moderate. Did you not read my earlier post in this thread? His 'thesis' was that the holocaust did not happen. Also, Abbas was Arafats right hand man who said himself that the Israelis have no right to their land or to their existance. I suggest you do more reading on Abbas before you call what I say cuastic.
And btw, I do not just read, I also lived in the Middle East and can tell you first hand that Abbas is not a moderate--just ask Israel. I do not take what the press or the president says as gospel. Having been afforded to live in the Middle East has given me a first hand view and experential knowledge I would not have otherwise had just listenening to the President - our talking heads and a blind press. They are not God and do not represent the facts correctly all the time. Go to Jerusalem Post online. They are fair and balanced giving both an Israeli and Palestinian perspective. |
I do read the Jerusalem Post, also Haaretz and many other papers around the world and form fairly rational views of events. I am not defending Abbas by any means. I just object to your portraying President Bush as forming an "unholy alliance" with Abbas as if Bush is a dunce and would turn his back on Israel. No way.
You accuse the President of "stupidity" and me of being "suicidal". I have made no personal aspersions on you.
I certainly have no illusions about President Abbas and neither does Dubya! But I appreciate that Dubya is a poker player and is beginning a high-stakes game with Abbas.
He has a vision of democracy and freedom for the Middle East and Israel at peace with its neighbors. It's a very long term vision, but a journey of a thousand miles begins with one step.
He has dealt the opening hand to Abbas, (a gentle nudge, if you will) publicly praising him --I see you as a man of peace and courageous (so let's see what you can do for the peace process. You ask for my help, so let me tell you what I expect.) He is playing the hand, and putting the ONUS on Abbas by publicly praising him and expecting him to bring about an agreement with Israel.
With Hamas Party winning the majority, it's a tough start for a democracy, and Bush rightly refuses to deal with Hamas. So he must work with President Abbas.
But, since you lived in the M.E. for a time, and have 'experiential' knowledge, you are the expert, just what would you the expert, have this 'stupid' President do?
Maybe if you give him advice, telling him "I know these people, it's impossible!! Throw in the towel, Mr. President, give up!"
Maybe he will listen to you.
Oh, suicidal me.
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 2:10 pm Post subject: |
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I worked for some people involved in our government that were directly involved in Middle East governments. I never said I was an expert, but I do have a perspective you never will have, unless of course you too live in the Middle East, learn Hebrew and Arabic, learn the customs of Jews and Arabs, eat with them, work with them--that you will not get from a rah rah speech from Bush or the New York Times or USA Today--even Fox News cannot give you that. Once one lives in another country, under their societal dictates and government - you learn things about governments and people you would not know otherwise. As I said, I am no expert, but I do know what I speak of and Abbas--Abu Mazen (The Father of Mazen) is not a moderate. He never was and never will be. Maybe you should email Jennifer Griffin--I am sure you would consider her an expert and tell me she does not parrot what I have said here--she certainly has parroted this on Fox News.
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The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!" |
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shawa
CNO
Joined: 03 Sep 2004
Posts: 2004
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 7:35 pm Post subject: |
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Reality-based people have to look at a problem and say lets find an answer. That is what leadership is. Again I ask, what would you have President Bush do??
You only answer Bush is no good, Bush is stupid, just like the Dems who bad mouth without offering any solutions of their own.
The fact is that Abbas's Fatah Party is in the minority and the Hamas Party holds the majority in the newly elected government. The fact is that Abbas is walking a tightrope in his fight with Hamas. One of his top officials in the government was just murdered by Hamas. The fact is that Hamas is the ultra extremist party who are still holding the IDF soldier.The fact is that there was just a large street demonstration in opposition to the Hamas. That is encouraging.
The fact is that compared to Hamas, President Abbas is a moderate. Not the moderate that we would like, but he is all we've got.
So we stroke him, and encourage him in his fight with Hamas. Israeli Vice-President Shimon Peres met with Abbas and used similar words as Bush that Abbas "was a "leader of peace" and a reliable man".
(there is obviously a wink-wink there, but Bush and Ohlmert are putting the onus on Abbas to bring about an agreement with Israel.) If he can do that, we will resume the aid that the Palestinians need. And more of the Palestinian people may support Abbas and reject Hamas.
That is leadership, not stupidity.
Abbas: Past agreements will be honored
| Quote: | Abbas told the General Assembly that "any future Palestinian government" would honor all past agreements to which the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Palestinian National Authority have committed.
The agreements include letters between the Palestinians and Israel in which the PLO agreed to recognize Israel, renounce violence and commit to negotiations aimed at an independent Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel, he said.
Abbas said that if a unity government led to a resumption of peace talks, the negotiations would be under the jurisdiction of the PLO, which he heads. In addition, any results would be submitted either to a national referendum or the Palestinian National Council.
"Any future government will commit to imposing security and order, to ending the phenomena of multiple militias, indiscipline and chaos, and to the rule of law," he said.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766032.html |
Israel also puts the onus on Abbas to resolve the conflict:
| Quote: | ~SNIP~
She struck a more conciliatory tone toward the Palestinians, saying that Israel has no desire to rule over them and bilateral negotiations is the only way to resolve the conflict . Senior political sources in New York said yesterday that the U.S. administration and Israel are "fully coordinated at all levels" over policy toward the Palestinian Authority.
The comment was in response to the statement issued Wednesday in New York by representatives of the United States, United Nations, European Union and Russia - the so-called Quartet - welcoming the efforts of PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas to form a unity government, "in the hope that the platform of such a government would reflect Quartet principles."
Diplomats in New York interpreted the statement as a sign of erosion in U.S. opposition to Hamas being part of a Palestinian government.
Israeli sources, however, said yesterday that the statement effectively demanded that Abbas form a government that accepts the Quartet's previously stated principles: recognizing Israel, renouncing violence and accepting Israeli-Palestinian agreements.
"Israel's position does not differ from that of the international community, which holds that a prerequisite for any talks with the PA government is acceptance of the three conditions that would enable implementation of the road map," a political source told Haaretz yesterday....
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766063 |
Demonstration against Hamas:
| Quote: | Last update - 19:42 22/09/2006
Thousands of Fatah supporters stage anti-Hamas march in Gaza
By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent, and The Associated Press
Thousands of Fatah supporters staged an anti-Hamas march Friday amid growing tension between the political rivals.
The marchers, led by hundreds of gunmen firing in the air, chanted slogans against Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh and Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar of Hamas.
Hamas-Fatah tensions in Gaza have been running high after months of skirmishes between rival gunmen and the assassination of a top Fatah-allied security chief last week.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766280.html |
My only point is that to sit back and criticize is easy, but working with Abbas (as flawed as he is) to find the sensible solution is called leadership.
_________________
“I love the man that can smile in trouble, that can gather strength from distress, and grow brave by reflection. ‘Tis the business of little minds to shrink; but he whose heart is firm, and whose conscience approves his conduct, will pursue his principles unto death.” (Thomas Paine, 1776) |
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Doll
Commander
Joined: 04 Jul 2005
Posts: 339
Location: The Beltway
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| Posted: Fri Sep 22, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| shawa wrote: | Reality-based people have to look at a problem and say lets find an answer. That is what leadership is. Again I ask, what would you have President Bush do??
You only answer Bush is no good, Bush is stupid, just like the Dems who bad mouth without offering any solutions of their own.
The fact is that Abbas's Fatah Party is in the minority and the Hamas Party holds the majority in the newly elected government. The fact is that Abbas is walking a tightrope in his fight with Hamas. One of his top officials in the government was just murdered by Hamas. The fact is that Hamas is the ultra extremist party who are still holding the IDF soldier.The fact is that there was just a large street demonstration in opposition to the Hamas. That is encouraging.
The fact is that compared to Hamas, President Abbas is a moderate. Not the moderate that we would like, but he is all we've got.
So we stroke him, and encourage him in his fight with Hamas. Israeli Vice-President Shimon Peres met with Abbas and used similar words as Bush that Abbas "was a "leader of peace" and a reliable man".
(there is obviously a wink-wink there, but Bush and Ohlmert are putting the onus on Abbas to bring about an agreement with Israel.) If he can do that, we will resume the aid that the Palestinians need. And more of the Palestinian people may support Abbas and reject Hamas.
That is leadership, not stupidity.
Abbas: Past agreements will be honored
| Quote: | Abbas told the General Assembly that "any future Palestinian government" would honor all past agreements to which the Palestine Liberation Organization and the Palestinian National Authority have committed.
The agreements include letters between the Palestinians and Israel in which the PLO agreed to recognize Israel, renounce violence and commit to negotiations aimed at an independent Palestinian state alongside the state of Israel, he said.
Abbas said that if a unity government led to a resumption of peace talks, the negotiations would be under the jurisdiction of the PLO, which he heads. In addition, any results would be submitted either to a national referendum or the Palestinian National Council.
"Any future government will commit to imposing security and order, to ending the phenomena of multiple militias, indiscipline and chaos, and to the rule of law," he said.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766032.html |
Israel also puts the onus on Abbas to resolve the conflict:
| Quote: | ~SNIP~
She struck a more conciliatory tone toward the Palestinians, saying that Israel has no desire to rule over them and bilateral negotiations is the only way to resolve the conflict . Senior political sources in New York said yesterday that the U.S. administration and Israel are "fully coordinated at all levels" over policy toward the Palestinian Authority.
The comment was in response to the statement issued Wednesday in New York by representatives of the United States, United Nations, European Union and Russia - the so-called Quartet - welcoming the efforts of PA Chairman Mahmoud Abbas to form a unity government, "in the hope that the platform of such a government would reflect Quartet principles."
Diplomats in New York interpreted the statement as a sign of erosion in U.S. opposition to Hamas being part of a Palestinian government.
Israeli sources, however, said yesterday that the statement effectively demanded that Abbas form a government that accepts the Quartet's previously stated principles: recognizing Israel, renouncing violence and accepting Israeli-Palestinian agreements.
"Israel's position does not differ from that of the international community, which holds that a prerequisite for any talks with the PA government is acceptance of the three conditions that would enable implementation of the road map," a political source told Haaretz yesterday....
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766063 |
Demonstration against Hamas:
| Quote: | Last update - 19:42 22/09/2006
Thousands of Fatah supporters stage anti-Hamas march in Gaza
By Avi Issacharoff, Haaretz Correspondent, and The Associated Press
Thousands of Fatah supporters staged an anti-Hamas march Friday amid growing tension between the political rivals.
The marchers, led by hundreds of gunmen firing in the air, chanted slogans against Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh and Foreign Minister Mahmoud Zahar of Hamas.
Hamas-Fatah tensions in Gaza have been running high after months of skirmishes between rival gunmen and the assassination of a top Fatah-allied security chief last week.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/766280.html |
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Of course Shawa, I agree, reality based people do look at the problem and say what can we do-and I never said Bush was stupid, but I do believe that those around him, advising him, including Condi Rice have given him wrong advice. I also believe when there is a problem, you look beyond the problem and not only study the history of the governement-people-and culture/religion-but also what the individual/official in office has stood for over the years and why he took his position seeking to know if there truly is a sincere change of heart. I realize we all have stood for things perhaps in our youth that now as we are older have changed our stances about.
I do not care how much our media-news-journalists-government officials try to tell it-Abbas is not a moderate. He supported Arafat when Israel was willing to give up 97% of their land to the Palestinians, and Arafat refused with Abbas's blessings and support. I lived there at that time and I can tell you that Abbas is as radical as Hamas.
Right now he is trying to paint himself into a different picture because of the power struggle that continues in the Palestinian territory and does not accept his defeat well. His interests lie in the annihilation of Israel, which is the same goal of Hamas and Hizbullah--the total destruction of all Jews and Israel for a Palestinian State. If that were not so--then Arafat would have accepted Israel's offer of 97% of the land. Did you ever ask yourself why? If this is a problem about just land, then why did Arafat refuse Israel's offer and why did Abbas support it? At the end of the day there is truly no difference between Hamas and Abbas - their goal is the same - the destruction of Israel.
I can tell you why, I lived their. The Palestinian leader Arafat at that time along with Abbas at his side went on al-Jazeera and said, "We want the end to an Israeli State and the complete return of Jerusalem. We will fight to the end and make sure there is no Jew living on our land."
Do not misunderstand me Shawa, I respect your opinions and your views, albeit we may not agree. I am just giving you a backdrop as to why I believe what I believe, say what I say, and why I will never believe Abbas is a moderate.
Please do not assume I blame Bush totally, I do not. I am sure some of his advisors are quite ill informed. Bush is by no means stupid, but I am concerned when he takes up an alliance with a man whose thesis was that the holocaust never happened and that Jews do not have a right to their land and or existence. That truly is the only point I was trying to get across.
The only affect we can have is at the voter box--beyond that this is all conjecture and personal opinion. I do believe, and I am sure you would agree Shawa that if our politicians listened more to their constituents and took our views more into mind when voting in the House and Senate this country would be in a much better state and perhaps some of the issues we all face today would not exist.
| Quote: | | My only point is that to sit back and criticize is easy, but working with Abbas (as flawed as he is) to find the sensible solution is called leadership. |
In my estimation you can call this leadership all day, but as for myself, I call this appeasement and there is a big difference.
I am sorry if I offended you in any way-I appreciate your opinion, the right to have it and to express it, irregardless if we agree or not. 
_________________
The HILL Chronicles
Soldiers' Angels
"Wednesday Hero - Google It!" |
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Deuce
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 19 Mar 2005
Posts: 589
Location: FL
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 5:46 pm Post subject: |
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Doll,
Your empathy for the plight of the average MiddleEasterner comes through loud and clear...as you have indicated your perspective may be more atuned to their frustrations than ours. But you also have to remember our perspective is that our president is essentially the first to 'accept' Islam's jihad seriously. And he continuously is abused for doing so by the Left...we are not the Left. We support him for doing so, in the manner he best can implement the many strategies coming out of the Whitehouse, amongst all the other trials and tribulations as President of the USA. (remember, until 2001, China was our 'biggest threat', and it's bigger today than 2001). The world is a big place, glad our president is CIC,
Deuce |
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Schadow
Vice Admiral
Joined: 30 Sep 2004
Posts: 936
Location: Huntsville, Alabama
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| Posted: Sat Sep 23, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| Deuce wrote: | .... (remember, until 2001, China was our 'biggest threat', and it's bigger today than 2001). The world is a big place, glad our president is CIC.
Deuce |
An even bigger threat, I'm afraid, is the newly emerging Russia which has signed an agreement to sell to Venezuela thirty Sukhoi SU-30 fighter jets, thirty attack helicopters, and 100,000 (with options to 300,000) Kalashnikov AK-103 assault rifles along with the building of two Kalashnikov factories in Venezuela. The rifles, it is speculated, will be used to aid guerillas in undermining and overthrowing whatever remaining South American democracies.
I would fault President Bush for looking into Putin's eyes and seeing a friend. Putin is slowly returning Russia to its Soviet communist days and finds in Chavez a classic "useful idiot" to aid him in restoring Russia's world power parity with the US. (In turn, it could be said that Americans who buy CITGO gas are "useful idiots", also.)
Russia continues to supply Iran with all the weapons it wants and is currently training some one thousand nuclear engineers in Russian facilities.
With all our focus on the WOT, we must not (and I hope we're not) take eyes off this old, newly strengthening foe.
Schadow
_________________
Capt, 8th U.S. Army, Korea '53 - '54 |
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