SwiftVets.com

[waltjones]

JN173: Overstated a tad didn't we?

That's what Nolan does; he accuses this site of innuendo, but he's a master of it. Propaganda - unlike the 1st-hand accounts of these honorable SwiftBoat Vets, who ARE 'Nam vets - doesn't rely on facts or legal evidence. If people want the truth, don't listen to Nolan - listen to the Swiftees! I look for Nolan and Micheal Moore to co-author a book soon. Semper Fi!
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Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[KeithNolan]

TO JN173: sorry for the overstatement. I was quoting from memory. That's why I pulled Lewy's book off the shelf and gave you the actual quote.

All in all, though, I stand by my remark that nothing said in Detroit by the VVAW does not match up with the court-martial record. To back that up, I'll cite CASUALTIES OF WAR by Daniel Lang (which describes the rape-murder of a peasant girl by four of five members of a recon patrol from the 1st Cavalry Division in 1966), SON THANG by Gary Solis (which describes the murder of several peasant families by a patrol from the 7th Marine Regiment in 1970), as well as the many books written about the Lieutenant Calley (who was court-martialled for committing mass murder in My Lai while a platoon leader with the Americal Division in 1968).

If you truly want to have your stomach turned, go find the official USMC history of court-martials in Vietnam. It was written by Gary Solis when he was still a lieutenant colonel on active duty and was published by the Marine Corps Historical Center, Washington Navy Yard, Washington, D.C.

The official USMC history of court-martials is not the kind of thing you'll find at your public library, but it you track down a copy, you'll find official confirmation of the very kind of incidents described by the VVAW in Detroit.

By the way, JN173, I have no doubt (and have said many times here) that most combat soldiers stayed true to their moral compass and served with distinction and honor in Vietnam. That said, I remain amazed at the whitewashing that goes on here regarding atrocities and the counterproductive brutality of General Westmoreland's seach-and-destroy strategy.

Keith Nolan

[KeithNolan]

TO WALTJONES: if you're going to charge me with spreading propaganda, please point out the factual errors in my posts. If I'm really the Michael Moore of this website, it should be an easy task.

Anyway, cheap invective is easy. Answering the questions posed at this thread is not. None of you guys ever name a single phony who gave testimony with the VVAW in Detroit. Again, it should be easy. According to Burkett and his holy book STOLEN VALOR, fully seventy-percent of the members of the VVAW were fakes. You should have names galore to throw down on the table. (I remain mystified how the Nixon administration, which poured through the military records of VVAW members and infiltrated the organization with spies, only came up with the name of one fake: Al Hubbard.)

By the way, regarding proof that would stand up in a court of law, you ask for the impossible: there is no way to legally prove what VVAW members said in Detroit in 1971, just as there is no way to legally prove what SBVFT members are saying about Kerry at this moment on this website.

All we can really go with is memory and common sense. Why would someone lie? Do they have anything to gain from their lies? I told you that I tracked down several dozen veterans who served with one of the VVAW members in Detroit. I wanted to hear for myself how valid this testimony was. These veterans (mostly right-wing guys who would never have joined the VVAW) confirmed the Detroit testimony in spades. Why would these guys lie?

Oh, by the way, it's worth noting that General David M. Shoup, USMC (Ret), who earned the Medal of Honor in WWII, publicly offered his support to John Kerry and the VVAW on the eve of Operation Dewey Canyon III.

Obviously, General Shoup saw the VVAW for what it was: an organization of genuine combat veterans who had turned against a mismanaged war that was getting a lot of people killed to no good end.

Why's it so hard to admit that these issues are not exactly black and white? Why's it so hard to admit that the Vietnam War divided veterans, and that no particular political group has a lock on Truth, Justice, and the American Way?

You know, every group needs a gadfly or devil's advocate. It keeps people honest. That's why we have a First Amendment. Sorry that SBVFT is so prickly when someone offers an opposing viewpoint.

KWN

[War Dog]

Dead Horse!
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"When people are in trouble, they call the cops.

When cops need help, they call the K-9 unit."