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VoiceOfReason
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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 Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:29 am Post subject: A PM I got from a Kerryite |
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In response to this thread, in which I was unjustly accused of being a Kerry supporter, I received the below private message from a poster identifying himself as "KeithNolan." Since I never promised to keep private messages confidential, and since Nolan himself did not ask that I do so, I have chosen to respond publically. Out of respect for his privacy, however, I am withholding his email address, which he included.
I welcome one-on-one discussion on this matter, although I would prefer to keep it public. I ask that those who wish privacy for their communications to use my email address, voiceofreason@butterfly-ballot.com.
Without further ado, the message and my response.
| Quote: | | VOICE OF REASON, you will never get a straight answer from the SBVFT, and you will never get the proof you desire regarding their ludicrous allegations about Kerry's service in Vietnam. |
You cannot know this. You do not have enough evidence to state definitively that the accusations made in SBVT's ad are not true. | Quote: | | The membership of SBVFT is furious about Kerry's anti-war activities in 1971. In revenge, they have decided to reach back to 1969 and spit on his combat service. |
This may be true. It is also totally irrelevant. | Quote: | | Never mind the glowing efficiency reports Kerry received in 1969 from his superior officers. Never mind the valor awards Kerry received in 1969 that were approved by these same superior officers. Never mind that two Army advisors and fourteen of the fifteen sailors who served shoulder-to-shoulder with Kerry in Vietnam remember him as a decent officer. |
Yes, never mind them, because none of them are relevant to the specific charges. Suppose the account that SBVT presents of Kerry's first Purple Heart, and the more detailed account presented in the book Unfit for Command are true. Would that in any way preclude Kerry from receiving glowing efficiency reports? Is it possible that Kerry got his first Purple Heart unethically, and he received two awards for valor? Is it unthinkable that a soldier decorated twice for valor and three times for being wounded did not, strictly speaking, deserve some of those awards?
No, of course it's not unthinkable. It could happen. And therefore SVFT's charges achieve the level of credibility... but the burden of proof rests with them, and this is a burden they have not yet met. It sure would be nice if they'd release those affidavits. It's especially annoying that they've released an updated affidavit that references an earlier affidavit that has not yet been made public.
And by the way:
| Quote: | | Never mind that two Army advisors and fourteen of the fifteen sailors who served shoulder-to-shoulder with Kerry in Vietnam remember him as a decent officer. |
This, in addition to being completely irrelevant, is highly misleading. The fifteen soldiers you reference using the extremely vague term "shoulder-to-shoulder" are, in fact, the fifteen soldiers who served under him. He served with twenty-three other lieutenants in Coastal Division 11. Of the twenty-one who are still alive, sixteen oppose Kerry. Four are neutral. Exactly one supports him.
If you want to know about a man, ask his peers, not his subordinates.
| Quote: | | This website is all about what Kerry said in 1971 in Washington, D.C., not what he did in 1969 in Vietnam. |
That is patently false, since the website includes detailed allegations about an event in December 1968.
| Quote: | | By the way, I started any number of threads ("this website is fueled by lies and innuendo," "Joe Conasan's charges against SBVFT") that never get answered. Much yelling and screaming goes on here. And that's about it. |
Yeah, I'm sure that your post titled "this website is fueled by lies and innuendo" was calm, rational, and well-reasoned.  |
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ASPB
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004
Posts: 1680
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: |
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Geez Mr Nolan,
VoiceOfReason has a total of 6 posts in the forum and already has you defined. Methinks he is a well-read and intelligent combatant!
What think you?
_________________
 On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:40 am Post subject: |
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"Spit on his service?"
"Glowing fitness reports?"
"two Army advisors and fourteen of the fifteen sailors?"
Mr. "Kerry-Proxy" Nolan, still relying on the same old claims even after they're proven wrong or misleading, time and again.
How'd you like the media package that went along with that ad? Pretty comprehensive.
Scholarly.
All their ducks in a row.
So good that all the Kerry campaign could do in the way of damage control was to release "Brown books" full of private and personal records of the founders.
Ohhhh, and wasn't it just a couple of days ago that their campaign said, in response to "Unfit for Duty" that the Swifts had gone and hired a g***amn private attorney to dig up dirt? That it was low politics?
Too rich.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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KeithNolan
Ensign
Joined: 15 May 2004
Posts: 74
Location: Washington County, Missouri
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:34 am Post subject: |
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Wow, posting PMs without permission is allowed here? Interesting. Anyway, if you guys want to debate Kerry's service in Vietnam, the VVAW, the nature of the search-and-destroy war that led many embittered ex-grunts to join the VVAW, and all the rest of it, I'd be glad to keep going.
(deleted by Admin)
Admin note:
Please do not post messages relating to forum administration. If you have a complaint/observation/suggestion, please direct it to either an administrator or moderator via Private Message.
Thank you
You want real debate? Fine.
Navy-Navy-Navy, let's get back to your black-and-white view of the Vietnam War from another thread. I'm still waiting for an answer to those questions.
KWN |
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VoiceOfReason
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:53 am Post subject: |
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| KeithNolan in a private message wrote: | | Wow, you're something else. I sent a Private Message. You know, as in Private. You're in good company at this website. |
Yes, Private, as in "not public." If you call me on the phone, that's Private... but that doesn't mean it's unethical for me to tell other people what we talked about, unless you ask me not to. You didn't ask me to keep your private (or the above) message to myself, I'd never given any indication that I would keep private messages to myself, and I was therefore under no ethical obligation whatsoever to keep you message to myself. And I didn't. Next time you don't want your words shared, say so.
| KeithNolan wrote: | | Wow, posting PMs without permission is allowed here? Interesting. |
As far as I know. If I broke a rule, I apologize. | Quote: | | Anyway, if you guys want to debate Kerry's service in Vietnam |
Sure. | Quote: | | the VVAW, the nature of the search-and-destroy war that led many embittered ex-grunts to join the VVAW, and all the rest of it, I'd be glad to keep going. |
Actually, no, I don't want to debate that. I don't think I've raised those issues at all. I want to talk about SVFT's allegations, and whether they're true or not.
You seem to be certain that they are not true. If you wish to claim definitively that this is the case, the burden of proof is on you. As things currently stand, SVFT has not proven their claims true, and you have not proven their claims false. There is insufficient evidence to judge either way. If you have evidence that SVFT's claims are false (specifically, for now, their account of John Kerry's first purple heart, or their claim that Kerry lied about spending Christmas in Cambodia), please present it. I'd like SVFT to present their evidence in favor, but perhaps they know what they're doing. By withholding the proof, they've drawn a letter, signed by counsel for the DLC and the Kerry campaign, that calls people (specifically, Dr. Larson) liars and impersonators, sent with the intention of stifling political speech. If SVFT has proof and it now reveals it, the DLC and the Kerry campaign are both opened to real legal, not to mention political, liability.
| Quote: | | But please no more editing and deletions when I make a point the moderators don't like. You want real debate? Fine. |
I agree. I hope I don't get banned for saying so 
(Deleted by Admin)
Admin note:
Please do not post messages relating to forum administration. If you have a complaint/observation/suggestion, please direct it to either an administrator or moderator via Private Message.
Thank you
| Quote: | | Navy-Navy-Navy, let's get back to your black-and-white view of the Vietnam War from another thread. I'm still waiting for an answer to those questions. |
Then take it to another thread. This one is about SBVT's allegations about Kerry, not about Navy-Navy-Navy's view of the Vietnam War. The nature of the war is irrelevant to the question of whether Kerry acted dishonorably. |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:54 am Post subject: |
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| KeithNolan wrote: | | Navy-Navy-Navy, let's get back to your black-and-white view of the Vietnam War from another thread. I'm still waiting for an answer to those questions. |
Please wait no longer. You've gotten all the answer from me that fits the forum.
It's not black and white to you. Fine.
It IS cut and dried with me. Kerry must not be allowed to control the Armed Forces of the United States.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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VoiceOfReason
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 9
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| Posted: Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:23 am Post subject: |
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Admin note:
Sorry fellas...take the act on the road. |
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