 |
SwiftVets.com
Service to Country
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
and another --with specific mention to Seattle
Oklahoma House.us
| Quote: | HOUSE JOURNAL
First Regular Session of the Forty-ninth Legislature of the State of Oklahoma
Eleventh Legislative Day,
Tuesday, February 18, 2003
REMARKS
Mr. Dean Derieg, Pastor of The First Baptist Church in Foss, Vietnam Veteran and Member of the Oklahoma War Veterans' Commission, spoke to the House Members honoring veterans. Upon unanimous consent request of Speaker Adair, Mr. Derieg's remarks were ordered printed in full as follows:
<snip>
And I was telling the Secretary of Veterans Affairs the other day, I felt like I mentioned sacrilege almost when I mention my little congregation. Because they too, are the frozen chosen. And I wonder. What was it about those men. They made the sacrifices day-in and day-out that we might have the freedoms that we have today. They have earned something. What have they earned? They've earned nothing more than our respect.
Then came Vietnam. The never ending dust was only stymied for a short period of time but the monsoon rains, and the mud, and the jungles, and the rice patties, and all of that, some men gave their lives, some gave nothing but their youth.
And they did this all again for nothing more than the American way. And when we came back through Seattle -- remember, Seattle? Those of you who are Veterans of this place, don't you remember the freedom birch, don't you remember the excitement? Do you remember as they spit on us as we walked off of those planes? We may not have earned everything we were supposed to, but we still earned the respect of this Nation. We were soldiers and we are today Veterans of that war.
|
_________________
.
one of..... We The People |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Tell these United States Congressmen that it's all a MYTH, Mr Myth Guy
SamJohnson.gov
| Quote: | Cong. Sam Johnson to the Troops: America Supports You
Washington, May 9 - (2006?)
As part of Military Appreciation Month (May), today U.S. Congressman Sam Johnson (3rd Dist-Texas) announced a program for Texans to support our troops at home and overseas, “America Supports You.” Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Eric Ruff joined Johnson for the Plano event at the Casey Joyce All American VFW.
“You know, during Vietnam the American public really turned on our troops. Some folks came home from Vietnam and were spat on – and worse. America must do better – and we must do better for our troops. Showing our men and women in uniform that we appreciate their sacrifice and we support them to the hilt truly makes a big difference,” said Johnson. A 29-year Air Force veteran, Johnson spent nearly 7 years as a Prisoner of War in Vietnam. |
Steve Pearce.gov
| Quote: | Washington, D.C., Feb 15 - In remarks delivered on the floor of the House today during the continuing debate on H.Con.Res. 63;
U.S. Rep. Steve Pearce
I served in the Air Force during the Vietnam conflict. I say through no fault of my own because I was not a volunteer. I got there because I drew a very low draft number. As time has proved, it's going to be the only lottery that I'm going to win. "But that lottery gave me a free pilot's certificate and sent me to Vietnam to fly in '71, '72, [and] parts of '73.
I was in Vietnam during the time that Jane Fonda made her trip to the North, giving aid and comfort to the enemy. I was in Vietnam during the time that there were demonstrations in the streets back home. I was there during the time that our soldiers were cursed at and spit on. "And today, as I beat around the back, dusty roads of New Mexico, I encounter those same soldiers that I encountered back then. Those soldiers who are my age; who are on walkers. Life has been difficult. There's a common greeting for soldiers of that era. It's "welcome home brother" or "welcome home sister," because they were never thanked for their duty and they were never welcomed home with parades with yellow ribbons. We were snuck back into the country.
|
_________________
.
one of..... We The People
Last edited by kate on Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:55 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:16 pm Post subject: |
|
|
one of those lil ironies, from the
bellweather daily blogspot
Sunday, February 04, 2007
| Quote: | Spitting Myth Prof's School: Yes, The Spit Flew
CINCINNATI (TDB) -- A red-hot debate is swirling on the Internet and talk shows about the Vietnam-era recollections of veterans who say they were spat upon. Some dismiss the spitting as urban myth, and they often cite College of the Holy Cross professor Jerry Lembcke as the chief debunker. His 1998 book, The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory and the Legacy of Vietnam, published by New York University Press is the research work they often rely upon.
But the 2,700-student Jesuit university in Worcester, Mass., where Lembcke is employed, isn't totally sold on the idea that the spit never flew. In fact, it has said publicly that Holy Cross graduates were targets.
In April 1999, the school's official publication, Holy Cross Magazine, did a Vietnam retrospective and named two alums who were spit upon. The article is called "The War That Never Ended." One of the Holy Cross alums, Steve Bowen, is a 1965 graduate. He recalled it happened to him in Los Angeles and the spit landed on the front of his shirt. "She was so good looking, I just laughed," Bowen was quoted as saying about the incident.
And there was a lot about Jim MacDougald, a 1951 Holy Cross alum who also recalled being spit upon. MacDougald, with five kids, rose to the rank of Air Force colonel before retiring. Holy Cross published their stories and there is no evidence it suspects they made them up or lied. In fact, they are still available for all the world to view on the college's online portal.
Lembcke, too, is in the same Vietnam retrospective. He doesn't deny that vets were treated badly, and he doesn't deny that spitting took place.
"Many veterans have responded to my book with gratitude that I have set the story straight. Others have challenged my thesis, claiming to have been treated badly when they returned from war. Few of the latter stories, however, lend validity to the myth that it was anti-war activists who were hostile to vets," Lembcke said in the Holy Cross alumni mag article in April 1999. "Upon questioning, vets will often concede the hostility came from older veterans, the Veteran's Administration hospital, or simply a drunk in a bar. The historical fact is that the peace movement saw veterans as potential allies and reached out to them."
The feature article from the same April 1999 issue about the two Holy Cross alums who said they were spit at is here
And Lembcke, a Vietnam vet who became active in the peace movement, is here
The stories were published seven years ago, long before the current Iraq war, long before the current anti-war movement existed, and long before the current flap exploded, fanned by some people who claim that those who remember spitting stories from decades past are fabricators.
|
pdf of the April 1999 issue of Holy Cross Magazine
Jim MacDougald, a 1951 Holy Cross alum pg18
Steve Bowen, is a 1965 graduate pg24
MYTH Guy Lembcke, takes up the rear, at pg 72
_________________
.
one of..... We The People
Last edited by kate on Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
dropping in another lil contemporaneous report (anti-military)
University of Oregon News Release Feb 1, 1970
| Quote: | Bruce N. Braunsten, a graduate teaching assistant in the University of Oregon mathmatics department , was re-assigned to non-teaching duties during the winter term following a class incident, the department has reported
Braunsten reportedly asked Capt. Johnny L. Lambert, an ROTC officer who was enrolled as a student in his class, not to appear in class in uniform.
The class is continuing with another instructor and Captain Lambert is continuing to attend, in uniform.
|
and this...
Library of Congress Prints and Photographs Division
New York World-Telegram and the Sun Newspaper Photograph Collection
CREATED/PUBLISHED: [between 1965 and 1975]
TITLE: [Men gathered around a military display table, with banner overhead proclaiming "Sign up here for war crimes"]
click
here
copyrighted-link only
_________________
.
one of..... We The People |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Bob Greene's book (1989) "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam" is mentioned frequently in the Spitting Myth debate.
His book reports many of these instances, as recalled to him by veterans. The MYTH Guys dismiss Greene's book on the basis that the instances are not reported contemporaneously, and thus not primary evidence.
As the book has been an intregal part in the debate, the following post will be of some excerpts , for those not familiar with Greene's book.
amazon.com
Homecoming: When the Soldiers Returned from Vietnam
| Quote: |
Product Description
From Publishers Weekly
Chicago Tribune staffer Greene composed several of his syndicated columns around responses he received from Vietnam vets after he asked whether any of them had been spat upon. Unfortunately, the enormous impact of the columns is lost in their expansion to book form. Some servicemen were spat upon on their return, but more suffered verbal abuse or icy indifference. Many contributors point out that they did what their country asked them to do, and they were stunned by the cruelty, even savagery, of some of the anti-war protesters, many of whom proclaimed belief in love and peace. Some are still not reconciled to the treatment they received, while others welcome the change in the attitude toward them as a chance "to wipe a little spit off our hearts."
Copyright 1988 Reed Business Information, Inc.
From Library Journal
"Were you ever spat upon when you returned home to the United States?" asked syndicated columnist Greene of the Vietnam veterans among his readership. He received over 1000 letters in reply, many recounting specific details of just such a painfully remembered incident. Evidently this recollection of "hippies" (as they are often called in the letters) spitting on combat veterans has become one of the war's most unpleasant, enduring images. Conversely, other letters describe acts of generosity toward servicemen, from the typical free beers at the bar to a free show. But the over 200 letters excerpted here do more than confirm popular notions. They bring back the incidents of 20 years ago vividly, but not always with bitterness. And they reveal healing solidarity among veterans in response to what for many was not a happy homecoming. Recommended. Richard W. Grefrath, Univ. of Nevada Lib., Reno
Copyright 1989 Reed Business Information, Inc.
|
_________________
.
one of..... We The People |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Excerpts from Bob Greene's, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989
posted by blogger Tantor atFReeRepublic and elsewhere
| Quote: |
"Yes, I am a Vietnam veteran who was spat upon -- literally and figuratively. By hippies? I don't know. In the airport? Yes. San Francisco International Airport on October 11, 1971 at 3:15 p.m., and yes, I was still in uniform. To be exact, it was the same uniform that I wore during the last Fire Support Mission I was involved in, just 36 hours before landing in San Francisco Airport. No, I didn't have mud, dirt, or gunpowder on my uniform. A very kind Vietnamese woman at the Transit Company washed and ironed it for me so that I could come home to the country I love looking nice. This was one hell of a lot more than I received upon arrival.
If I were the only one to be spat upon, the score would be : not spat upon, 1,999,999, spat upon, 1. Of course, I know this score to be wrong. Literally because I saw others spat upon, and figuratively because to spit on one Vietnam veteran is to spit on them all.
The person who spat on me was wearing a shirt that said 'Welcome Home Baby-Killer.' ...
About that image of a burly Green Beret walking through the airport and being spat upon by a war protester -- let's also remember that most war protestors or hippies or whatever name you want to attach to them were also becoming very aware of their rights as U.S. citizens, and they knew that if this burly Green Beret did nothing they (protesters) had won, and if the burly Green Beret retaliated, they (protesters) still won. How could they lose?"
Robert E. McClelland; Massillon, Ohio, pp. 41-43
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "I think the date was March 7, 1972. I was in the San Francisco airport. I had just showered and put a fresh uniform (Air Force) on for my first leg home. Walking out to my gate I passed a 'hippie' who spat upon me and continued walking in the opposite direction, without a word.
I made nothing of the incident for two reasons:
(1) I was happy to be going home after 367 days in Thailand, and didn't want anything to screw it up, and (2) Officers who get in public fights, while in uniform, are dealt with in a fairly severe fashion."
Chris Ramel; Denver, Colorado, p. 37
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "I am a retired Catholic chaplain who served the Air Force community for twenty years. I had two tours in Vietnam (Phan Rang and Bien Hoa). I left Bien Hoa on November 18, 1968, flew military contract aircraft to Philadelphia, and then on to New York for two weeks' leave.
While I was leaving the JFK airport to catch a bus to the city, a lady (around 43 years old) told me that 'I napalm babies' and she spit on me. I didn't take her for a 'hippie' though. Needless to say she ruined my two weeks' leave."
Father Guy Morgan; Fort Collins, Colorado, p. 44
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "I am a female veteran of the U.S. Air Force -- 1967, 1968, 1969, and 1970. I was in Southeast Asia though not actually in Vietnam. I returned to the States in 1970 through Travis Air Force Base, and from there I visited a friend for a week and then flew back to the Midwest through O'Hare. I worked at a vegetable canning factory and at a local ski resort before returning to college at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, in the fall of 1971.
This is where my spitting story takes place.
I had joined a veteran's group called Vets for Peace. We were active in anti-war protest marches in Milwaukee, Madison, and Chicago. We usually marched with a group of veterans from Chicago called Vietnam Veterans Against the War. It was in Madison, on Veterans Day, 1971, as I was walking to the Capitol building from campus (all alone). I was wearing my Air Force overcoat and my Vets for Peace hat when a man about 19 or 20 years old looked me in the face and spit right into my face. He was a normal looking man, nothing to distinguish him from a thousand other people. But I will never forget what he did to me."
Rose Marie McDonough; Green Bay, Wisconsin, pp. 43-44
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "Late at night in mid-August 1969, I was spat upon in the San Francisco airport by a man in his early twenties. I had just returned from my tour of duty in the Republic of Vietnam, processed through the mess at the Oakland Army Depot, and was waiting at the airport for an early morning flight to my Denver home. The man who spat on me ran up to me from my left rear, spat, and turned to face me. The spittle hit me on the left shoulder and on my few military decorations about my left breast pockets. He then shouted at me that I was a "mother-******* murderer." I was quite shocked and just stared at him, probably with a stupid look on my face.
The spitter then called me a "mother-******* chicken-****." He was balling up his fists when he yelled this. A cop or security guard then showed up and grabbed the man from behind. I did not see where he came from, nor do I have any notion of how much time went by between the spitting and the cop's arrival, though it could not have been too long. A pretty good struggle went on between them for a few seconds, and then two more cops showed up. All the time the man who spat on me was calling me (and, I suppose, the cops) names, indicating we lacked bravery.
Having talked to other servicemen during the remainder of my service, I found two other young men who told me that they had similar experiences, one in an airport, the other in a bus station. I have no reason to doubt them. I also related my experience that same night to the man at the San Francisco airport who was running the USO center there. He confirmed what the police had told me: that a number of similar confrontations had occurred there recently."
Douglas D. Detmer; Farmington, New Mexico, pp. 83-4
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "Yes, I was spat on. I returned from Vietnam in July of 1970 after a year in country with the 12th and 11th Marines. We flew into Norton Air Force Base in Southern California and, after processing, several of us took a cab to LAX. After saying our farewells, I went to the terminal in which I would catch my flight back to Illinois (I'm from Peoria).
While walking down the corridor, I encountered a young man, no older than myself I'm sure, who looked me in the eye and without hesitation, spit on my ribbons. I didn't know what to do. I still don't. For all these years, I've remembered that experience."
Scott Brooks-Miller; Spokane, Washington, p. 18
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "From January of 1969 until February of 1970, I was stationed in the city of DaNang, as part of the U.S. Navy's support unit there. In February I returned to the States, where I was separated from active duty at Long Beach, California. After processing, we were driving to the Los Angeles International Airport.
While walking down one of the concourses, I was stopped by a young lady wearing typical flower child attire - a long maxi-dress, with granny-type glasses. She stopped me and, seeing my campaign ribbons, asked if I had been to Vietnam. When I told her was just coming from there, she spat upon my uniform and ran off.
I had a military duffel bag slung over one shoulder, and I was carrying both a briefcase in the other hand. I immediately dropped both articles and proceeded to run after her. After running about twenty yards, I stopped, said a couple of choice curse words, and thought: Welcome home."
Chester J. Leblanc; Lake Charles, Louisiana, p. 19
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "After a year of unbelievable hell in Vietnam, I was at the "repo depo" in Long Binh awaiting my flight out. The last thing I was told by the sergeant in charge as we boarded the aircraft was not to expect any welcome home committees when we got off the plane.
I arrived at Oakland Air Force Base [sic, more likely it was the military terminal of the Oakland airport] on April 14 (my mother's birthday), 1970. I had sat near the front of the plane, and therefore was one of the first to get off. As I looked out toward the terminal, I noticed a large crowd, maybe 200 or so people, on the far side of a cyclone wire fence. In front of them, on our side of the fence, were MPs, wearing ponchos. As we started to file out of the plane, the MPs shouted to us to move quickly, and began holding up their ponchos.
We were in khaki short-sleeved uniforms, and I was surprised that it would be raining in California. As I got closer to the MPs and the crowd, I still could not make out what they were yelling. Then the first egg landed near my foot. At first, like a fool, I looked up in the air, still not putting together what was going on. As my ears popped, adjusting to the change in pressure, I began to hear for the first time the chant: "How many babies did you kill today?"
Several of them were leaning against the fence, spitting at us and at the MPs blocking their view. Others were heaving eggs over the fence and into our midst. The MPs were covered with spittle and eggs, which explained the ponchos. They were obviously used to this ritual. The fellow behind me said, "Jesus, I wish I had brought my M-16!," and my stomach dropped as I realized for the first time what was going on.
I stopped to ask one of the MPs who these people were, and as I did so a woman about forty years old, not a teenager by any stretch of the imagination, leaned back and spit on me with all her strength. It landed on my shirt pocket, near the ribbons that I was wearing for the first time. "Bull's-eye!" she yelled. An MP lieutenant took my arm and said, "Go inside, son, and ignore them.""
David McTamaney; Newburgh, New York, pp. 21-23
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "I take no pleasure in a 'Yes, I was spat upon' vote, but here it is.
In June or July of 1969 I was going to take a college entrance exam at Palomar College near Oceanside, California. I had plans of going on to college in the fall after getting an early out from the Marines. While waiting on the steps leading from the parking lot, I was approached by a female and two males -- average looking, nicely dressed, 17 or 18 years old.
The girl asked if I was in the Marines -- I guess because of my haircut. I said yes. She then said, "So you're one of those baby killers." Then one of the boys spit on me, hitting my neck and shirt collar.
I punched at him while his buddy ran away and his girlfriend screamed at me, calling me all kinds of vulgarities.
I didn't take those exams. I just drove back to Camp Pendleton, as I had no desire to be further reviled by my fellow countrymen, for what I perceived to be a hatred of those who served this country.
I still feel the slime on my neck."
Ronald L. Trousdale; Las Vegas, Nevada, p. 23
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "I was medically evacuated from Vietnam in November, 1969, to a Naval hospital in Japan where, after my recovery, I was stationed. During my tour there I married a Japanese lady and adopted her son. She became pregnant; in early 1970 I was transferred back to the U.S.A.
My family and I landed at San Francisco International Airport after a very long flight from Japan. We were going into the cafeteria to eat and, of course, I was in my uniform with all my Vietnam medals, including the Purple Heart adn the Gold Star.
My family and I were standing in line, when, out of the blue, this middle-aged lady walked up to me with a bowl of potato salad in her hand.. She threw the potato salad smack in the middle of my chest and spat what salad she had in her mouth in my face. Then she proceeded to call me a "baby killer," "war monger," and a lot of other vile names.
I became so angry and humiliated that I balled my hands into fists and would have hit this 'lady,' had it not been for two other servicemen who grabbed me and got me out of there. I'm glad they did get me out of there before I'd had the time to react, because I later thought about headlines that could have read: "Craze Vietnam Vet Assaults Middle-Aged Woman."
That is how I was welcomed home. That is how my family was first introduced to America.
This 'lady' was no hippie. I sort of get the feeling it has been easy to 'blame' hippies for things like this because they were easily identifiable, and because they did dramatically, in many cases, communicate their opposition to the Vietnam war. But the verbal and physical abuse of returning Vietnam veterans took place in all levels of American society."
Frederick H. Giese; Arlington Heights, Illinois, p. 24
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "It happenned to me, and it was no joke.
In September of 1967, I was called to active duty with the U.S. Army Medical Corps. I was a neurosurgeon then (as I am now), and had recently completed a postdoctoral fellowship at the University of California at Berkeley. I was fortunate during my military service (two years of active duty) to be stationed at a large hospital facility stateside -- although I did not actually go to Vietnam, I was responsible for the treatment of a large number of wounded Vietnam soldiers.
I was stationed at Letterman General Hospital in San Francisco, and I commuted between the hospital and my home in Berkeley. ... In any case, when I would come home from the hospital (of course wearing my uniform, which was required), I would receive many negative comments from other residents of Berkeley. One afternoon a youngster, approximately twelve years old, who lived across the street from us, literally spat on me as I got out of my car. He shouted, "How many did you kill today?"
You can imagine how I felt -- especially since I had spent that day trying to reconstruct the skull of a Vietnam soldier who had suffered severe shrapnel wounds, and who had recently been transferred back to the United States for surgery."
Dr. Robert A. Fink; Berkeley, California, pp. 26-27
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "When I got back to the U.S. I had what they called burial detail. That's when you have to escort a person's body back to his next of kin and represent the U.S. and tell them their son, husband, or whoever had given his life for his country and you had to stick around until he was buried -- you were there to make sure the next of kin was okay.
Well, I had to take this fellow's body to his wife -- she was nineteen years old. It was in 1966 and his home was in Sacramento. ...
But to get to the bad part, I was helping the mortician take the casket out of the hearse. Of course, I was in my dress uniform, medals and all that, and the American flag was over the casket and some guy walked by when we had it out about halfway and the fool spit on it and said, "Good, he deserved to die.""
Tony J.; San Francisco, California, pp. 26-27
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "During August of 1966, while I was assigned for duty in the Munitions Building on Constitution Avenue in Washington, D.C. I was spat upon by a complete stranger while returning from lunch.
I was in Class A uniform, a CWO in the Army, walking along the street when I passed this man in casual civilian dress. As he passed he spat and made a remark: "You dirty (obscenity) killer."
I didn't realize he had spit on me at first, and decided not to cause a scene over what he had said. But I noticed his spit on my tie shortly after. His only possible provocation was my being a soldier in the uniform of my country.
He was not a hippie. He could have been a tourist, and both he and I were walking alone walking in different directions. I had never seen the man before.
As a result of this instance and to avoid other problems, our commanding officer encouraged us to wear civilian attire to work instead of our uniforms."
Claude A. Smith; Gaithersburg, Maryland, p. 31
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "In June 1969, the LST I was on sustained implosion damage from the grenades used to ward off 'zappers.' The damage required dry docking, and the ship was sent to Japan. I had been overseas for 19 months already, and the majority of that time was spent in Vietnam. I got lucky and was able to get a hop all the way from Yokota, Japan, to Wright-Patterson AFB, Ohio, which was great, considering home was a suburb of Cleveland.
I was sitting in a chair in the Columbus airport talking to some of the infantrymen who had hopped in with me, passing time. We had some girls come over to us and one or two hippies had a word to say, but we ignored them (not the girls, of course). ...
Shortly thereafter another hippie-type person came over to us, stood directly in front of where I was sitting and, in language flowered with the best vernacular of the day, was pointing at our service ribbons and other accoutrements, and calling us sarcastically 'war heroes.' He then proceeded to spout a line I had not heard before, but I would live to hear over and over: He called us 'baby burners.' At that point he spat on me. I'm sure he never expected the response he got. As a reflex action, I sprang up and put his lights out. It was the proverbial two-hit fight.
Before I even realized what I had done, one of the local constabulary had grabbed me and was escorting me to the Security Room, despite the objections fo the other servicemen present. The person I hit was not detained even a moment. He was helped to his feet, asked if he was okay, and summarily dismissed. They didn't even ask him if wanted to press charges. ... I think the only reason they did, in fact, let me go was because they had neglected to have the guy sign a complaint or press charges. ... Looking back on things, it is obvious to me now that the guy who spit on me was performing for the others nearby."
George M. Householder; Painesville, Ohio, pp. 35-36
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | In January 1969 I joined the Army due to a draft declassification back to 1A while attending college at Texas Wesleyan in Fort Worth. ... April 1970 and I am at the airport in Dallas on my way to Nam. The airport Bible flippers wouldn't even approach you because of the uniform. I think 'Mother fuckin' baby killer' was the favorite line we heard. In Frisco, we had to change flights with a one hour wait.
I was spit on twice -- once by a female hippie-type who smelled as bad as she looked and secondly by a well-dressed young business type who would be called a 'yuppie' today. Him I flattened with a left hook in the gut and a right to his big mouth. My fellow officers and I were escorted to our plane by security and held there until the plane left. The average American in the airport only called us names without any physical violence threatened. Terms such as 'Murderer,' 'Baby killer,' 'Mercenary *******,' 'Rapist,' and '******* Bastard War Monger' were the parting words from our fellow Americans we were getting ready to die for. These taunts came form men and women, young and old. ...
Vietnam was Vietnam. I came back on a stretcher with seven bullet holes in me, 57 combat decorations (two Silver Stars), and spent two years in an Army hospital due to my service.
Some of my friends that didn't come back on military Medevac told me the name-calling and spitting got them again in Frisco and other major airports. We all resolved this in our future assignments by not wearing our uniforms in public. This worked well, because the Army was letting us wear our hair longer and we purchased civilian-type luggage and did not use the bags issued to us by the military. As long as you didn't look like military, you were left alone. ...
If we ever do go to war again and I decide to participate if the Army will have me, I'll shoot every SOB who curses or spits on me for defending our country."
Lou Rochat; Universal City, Texas, pp. 37-39
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "The circumstances of my being spat on were somewhat different than the stereotype, and, frankly, I never realized that there were other veterans complaining of similar occurrences.
I served in Vietnam during the height of the war, September 1967 to September 1968. If you recall, the war sentiment at the time was such that when I went to Vietnam I was still considered by many to be a patriot. By the time I was ready to return home, the United States had experienced the Chicago Democratic Convention, the riots in Detroit, the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr. and Bobby Kennedy, the riots in many cities -- and Haight Ashbury in San Francisco had blossomed. Frankly, I felt safer in Vietnam.
When I returned from overseas duty, I was to leave the Army and 'outprocess' in San Francisco. My girlfriend, who became my fiancee in San Francisco and now has been my wife for eighteen years, met me upon my arrival. One day while simply touring San Francisco, in uniform, a rather nondescript man on the street spit at my uniform because he was obviously in disagreement with what it represented at the time. Nothing was said, but the incident saddenned and confused me. I took off my uniform later that day and never put it on again during the rest of my stay in San Francisco.
What bothered me the most about the incident was that, having been born in 1944, I grew up with World War II movies which made soldiers heroes, and always showed them coming home to ticker-tape parades down Fifth Avenue. If there is any aspect of the war I have trouble coping with, it was trying to understand spitting on a uniform. I was an officer involved in covert intelligence work in Vietnam, so I did not experience some of the horrors of the infantrymen who were in the heat of battle every day. The only 'mental scar' that remains with me today was the unwelcome display of that man in San Francisco.
I had effectively put the incident out of my head to the point that I do not remember anything about the man except that he was not a hippie. Until now, I always thought my experience was somewhat isolated."
J. Leonard Caldeira; Chicago, IL, pp. 40-41
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "I attended a military reunion in New York in 1968. I was standing in front of the Waldorf waiting for a cab when a young girl walked up to me and spat. She said something and walked away. The doorman told me that it was not a 'good idea' to wear a uniform in New York."
M. Tierny; Las Vegas, Nevada, p. 41
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
| Quote: | "Upon my return from Vietnam in March 1969, I was assigned to duty in Detroit, Michigan. I was given the duty of notifying and providing assistance to the next-of-kin whose loved ones were killed in Vietnam. This job required special care and sensitivity to assist people who had lost someone they cared for. While walking through a local shopping mall I was spat upon by other Americans. It was quite a shock to have people so hostile toward me. I felt rejected by my country, and still do. The same country I was willing to die for, if necessary. To the American people: please, for my sake and for the sake of other Vietnam veterans, understand that we want to come home. Unfortunately for many, the horrors of war will last a lifetime. And also to the American people: thank you for listening to our stories."
Fred G. Alderman; Denver, Colorado, p. 47
Bob Greene, "Homecoming: When The Soldiers Returned From Vietnam", 1989 |
thanks go to Tantor for the excerpts
archiving...
_________________
.
one of..... We The People |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
| Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Not a spitting incident - commentary by B. G. Burkett on his own experiences that relate to the American psyche, and the attitude towards vets in that era
hattip Mudville Gazette scroll down
| Quote: | Update: How could I fail to mention a book I brought with me to Baghdad - B. G. Burkett's definitive work Stolen Valor : How the Vietnam Generation Was Robbed of Its Heroes and Its History. (ed: 1998) He recounts his own welcome home in the prologue:
| Quote: | At the dinner hour, the airport restaurant was half empty. I threw down my duffel bag, sat, and tried to catch the waitress's eye. "Miss, Miss," I said. The waitress, a woman in her thirties, was only a few feet away. But she pointedly ignored me and began waiting on people who had come in after me.
Finally a younger waitress came over. "Oh, don't mind her," she said. "She's got this antiwar thing. She won't serve anybody in uniform." The second waitress rook my order, brought me the food, and I put the other woman's rudeness down to a personal quirk.
After eating, I sat at the gate and waited for the plane. When they called the flight, to my relief I was one of the standbys who made it aboard.
After I found a seat, the man next to me said,
"Oh, you're stationed at Fort Dix?"
"No, I just got home from Vietnam," I said.
"Oh, a big war hero?" announced the man across the aisle. He had obviously been on the plane from a previous leg, nipping at those little bottles of Jack Daniel's. "Hey folks, we've been sitting here on the runway waiting on a big goddamn war hero." I grimaced but said nothing. It was May 1969. I had been back in the United States fewer than twenty-four hours after serving a tour of duty in Vietnam as an ordnance officer. First the waitress and now this.
The guy refused to let up. "Hey bucko, you spent a year killing women and children, "he said. "Make you feel like a big man, did it? You got your drugs with you , you f*****g pothead?" The entire flight continued that way. For more than an hour, he constantly needled me. I knew if I decided to take the guy out he was dead meat. But punching him would have confirmed all of his prejudices, I refused to do that.
What made me most angry was that no one on the plane said anything to him. None of the other passengers defended me. I felt like a pariah. If I had been a veteran of World War II, coming home after serving my country, somebody would have slugged the guy.
As I stood up in the aisle after the plane landed, the idiot continued his goading, his voice following me long after I waked off the plane. It aggravates me still. That personal insult was directed thousands of times in thousands of ways toward the men and women who served in Vietnam. In the decades after the war, the negative attitudes and assumptions of those times unfortunately became cemented in the American psyche.
|
|
_________________
.
one of..... We The People |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
still a topic in the blogosphere
nice hit on the MYTH guy by "sanity check"
broowaha.com
| Quote: | BrooWaha
New York Edition
Yes Virginia, Vietnam Vets were spit on
by sanity check , July 19, 2007
Dr. Jerry Lembcke a professor at Holy Cross, published a book in 1998 entitled “The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam” in which Lembcke asserts that Vietnam Veterans were never spit on. Lembcke, a staunch anti-war activist, member of “Vietnam Veterans Against the War”, and to this day, a leading critic of U.S. foreign policy has become the sole “academic” reference for the repudiation of the spitting myth. To say he is biased would be an understatement.
To the surprise of no one, the media and many current anti-war groups quickly accepted Lembcke’s assertions in an attempt to rehabilitate an anti-war movement devoid of credibility. Unfortunately, to anyone who reads his book, Lembcke’s work is flawed at every level and wouldn’t be worthy of mention except that it is now the single source cited by anyone wishing to ignore historical fact and propagate Lembcke’s position that Vietnam Vets were not spit on. This is exactly why the anti-war movement has no credibility with mainstream Americans: Many are against the war but few want to be lumped in with these wild eyed ex-hippies trying to convince the American people their servicemen committed war crimes and atrocities against the Vietnamese.
The facts are really very simple and undisputed.
U.S. Servicemen in Vietnam were accused of committing war crimes and killing innocent men, women and children in Vietnam as early as 1964. This was ingrained in the pop culture of the time. Don’t think so? Find a 1966 rendition of Arlo Guthrie’s song Alice’s Restaurant and listen to it. Pay special attention to the parts about burning woman and children. Lembcke’s own organization, Vietnam Veterans Against the War conducted the “Winter Soldier” tribunals in which Vietnam Veterans confessed to war crimes. John Kerry testified to Congress that these war crimes were being committed and that military leaders at all levels knew about these things. “Baby Killer” was a common term in the 1960s and early 70s. Just pick up an old National Lampoon or copies of any of the underground newspapers of the time.
The 1960s were extremely violent times. Quick read of the AVAILABLE newspapers and you have stories of police officers and antiwar protesters fighting in the streets. And for the record, spitting by both men and woman is easily documented. A sampling? Antiwar demonstrators instructed to spit on LBJ’s car. Bob Hope’s car was spit on when it was stopped by antiwar protestors as he tried to attend the Army Ball in LA. The mayor of Oakland was spit on A news reporter reported that a police officer was spit on by an antiwar protestor at the Oakland Induction center during attempts by antiwar protestors to close the center down. Abbie Hoffman was charged with spitting on a police officer at the 1968 Democratic convention in Chicago. If you think spitting was disgusting, then you wouldn’t want to hear the reports of police officers being hit with human excrement and urine. Perhaps Lembcke can be excused for not knowing any of this as it happened YEARS BEFORE Vietnam Veterans Against the War formed. There is even a story of two 12-year-old girls spitting on the King of Saudi Arabia! Probably not worth mentioning except Lembcke actually says in his book “Girls don’t spit”.
As part of his findings, Lembcke challenges the notion that servicemen would be in a civilian airport. This is just plain stupid. A person on their way to Vietnam would be coming from HOME. They would travel on commercial planes to the closest airport to their embarkation point which for many, was San Francisco. How many servicemen did this? Enough that there was a scheduled shuttle bus to Travis AFB from San Francisco International Airport during most of the Vietnam War. Going home was the same process in reverse. Hit the ground on the West Coast and head to the closest airport to catch a civilian flight home. It is estimated that thousands of servicemen went through the San Francisco Airport every day during the Vietnam Conflict.
And in the early 1970s, a person could literally walk right up to the gate in most airports. Were there demonstrators in the airport at SFO? Yes. Again, this is not disputed. San Francisco was literally the cradle of the antiwar movement. The number of antiwar activities that occurred in and around San Francisco is astounding: Oakland Army Induction center, Travis Air Force Base, The Oakland Naval Facilities, the Presidio, Haight-Ashbury, Berkeley, Stanford et al. And from all accounts, the events were violent and people were just plain pissed off. That demonstrators were in the Airport is not disputed. Evidently, when they arrived at the airport, the demonstrators became very placid and unemotional and immediately changed their tactics.
Another absurdity: Lembcke states (page 3 – 4): “two mutually exclusive sets of circumstances cannot coexist in the same time and place”. In the case of Vietnam veterans and the anti-war movement, I assumed those two parties could not have been simultaneously hostile to one another and mutually supportive; anti-war activists could not have been spitting on veterans while at the same time befriending them in off-base coffee houses”.
This is the worst kind of pseudo-science: easily debunked and devoid of credibility. It assumes that the anti-war movement was highly organized and that it’s members shared a common goal and common techniques to achieve these goals. Nothing could be further from the truth. The anti-war movement was highly fragmented and geographically dispersed. San Francisco was far removed from the streets of New York City, Washington DC, Cambridge Massachusetts, or Ann Arbor Michigan. The University of California at Berkeley (UC Berkeley) was a hot bed for student dissent and anti-war activities five years before the Vietnam Veterans Against the War was even formed. To assume that these disjoint organizations operated cohesively with any kind of unified platform is ludicrous. None other than Dr. Hunter S Thompson, attending an antiwar demonstration in Washington DC observed that there were actually fist fights developing between various antiwar factions. That Lembcke would lump the entire antiwar movement into one group and make his grandiose leap of faith is absurd. Antiwar groups were setting off bombs in New York City and the Weatherman were robbing banks. Street riots and campus unrest was commonplace and all these groups had leaders that were not necessarily cooperating with other antiwar groups. Articles appeared in newspapers about escalating violence when the government did not respond to the antiwar movement’s demands. To it's credit VVAW worked diligently to control violence at the events it sponsored, Not always with success. Again, this is all part of the historical record.
FACT: 3.3 million people served in the Armed forces during the Vietnam conflict. At its height, VVAW stated it had 30,000 members. These numbers are disputed and newspaper accounts place membership closer to 8,000 with a core of about 1,000 active members. Using the 30,000 claimed members would still mean less than one percent of Vietnam Veterans actually joined VVAW. Not exactly the kind of numbers that would allow an organization to claim it “represented the majority, or even a large segment of Vietnam Veterans”. The truth: most Vietnam Vets came home, figured the war was a waste and were anti-war. The numbers speak for themselves. The vets refused to associate with the VVAW as the VVAW's attempt to incite mutiny and unrest in combat units could further endanger American Soldiers.
The saddest part of Lembcke’s so-called science: He simply groups everyone who says they were spit on and collectively dismisses ALL THEIR FIRST HAND REPORTS as False Memories. It doesn’t matter which side of this issue you are on, you have to have serious reservations about the accuracy of any work where the author simply ignores ALL the eye witness reports offered by the vets. This isn’t science and it isn’t the kind of reference proponents should be quoting when they say Vietnam Vets were not spit on.
Dr. Lembcke, heres a bit of science you obviously haven't heard of: Occam’s Razor. Simply stated: all things considered, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Let’s apply the razor to this situation. Servicemen during the Vietnam conflict were being categorized as war criminals. The Anti-war movement contained elements that were confrontational and violent. Given the large number of servicemen in and around airports during the Vietnam War and the accessibility of the airports to demonstrators, antiwar demonstrators could and did come in contact with servicemen at the airports. The airport demonstrations were commonplace and wouldn’t be covered by the press.
If spit on, the serviceman could retaliate and risk punishment, report the incident, or ignore it. Reporting the incident takes time and no one, either going to or coming back from Vietnam would want to invest time in this sort of thing. So we are left with the first person accounts by the GIs that these things happened and which have been reported in books like Bob Greene’s *Coming Home. And it’s safe bet, the antiwar heroes that did the spitting aren’t going to come forward, isn’t it…. No false memories, no bogus hypothesis and everything explained rather easily. Except it doesn’t explain why you are so interested in heaping scorn on a bunch of people that have already suffered enough.
Copyright © 2007 sanity check |
emphasis mine
(*ed note :Homecoming)
_________________
.
one of..... We The People |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
KBowman
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 3
|
| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:31 pm Post subject: More contemporaneous spitting reports |
|
|
From testimony before the United States, Senate, Congress, Committee on Armed Services
| Quote: | | At this point in time, we have not reduced any of our units as a result of these activities. We have had some rather serious incidents on capuses which have involved Airforce ROTC detachments. These have varied from fire-bombing and 45 slugs through the wall to spitting on uniforms and comparable activities. This is unpleasant, difficult to accept and difficult to live with. |
Authorization for Military Procurement, Research and Development, Fiscal Year 1970, Hearings, p. 1981 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
kate
Admin
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 1891
Location: Upstate, New York
|
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Topic still in the blogosphere in 2008. This blog posting, however, drew comments by the MYTH guy himself (Lembcke) and his debunker Jim Lindgren (heavily referenced on previous pages on this thread). Note that the blog owner/article poster (Ari) is a teacher,who seems to soften a bit on their position as the discussion progressed ~ see the blog entirety for context ~ just snips here
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The Edge of the American West
Holding Together Myth and Memory with Spit and Politics
February 14, 2008 by ari
| Quote: | When I used to teach a course on the history of 1960s at my old job, I always asked students how many of them believed that anti-war protesters had spat upon Vietnam veterans when the latter returned home from tours of duty. The point was to introduce the idea that politics underlies collective memory and mythology.
Every time I did this, at least 75 of the 100 or so people taking the class would raise their hands, indicating that they had heard about activists spitting on vets. Then I would talk to them about Jerry Lembcke’s work, noting that Lembcke, a sociologist, had done extensive research and found that there’s no — as in zero — actual evidence supporting the spitting stories. I’d then talk to them about why and how this myth has nevertheless endured, what, in other words, nourishes a lie.
And, finally, I’d ask how many of them were ready to believe Lembcke. To their credit, my students were always honest with me; none of them tried to curry favor. Only a very few, 6 or 7, would allow that Lembcke’s research sounded convincing.
(more) |
scrolling down through the discussion/replies
The MYTH guy shows up
Jerry Lembcke February 16, 2008 at 6:28 pm
| Quote: | In his 2/15/08/2:15 p.m. posting PorJ writes that I am unequivocal and absolute in saying that no one spat on Vietnam veterans.
On pp. 67-68 I write, “Undoubtedly, there were instances of incivility between veterans and anti-war activists . . . . Given the temper of the times, there were surely intemperate remarks exchanged by soldiers and radicals. . . . The chances for hurt feelings and misunderstandings from careless comments were great.”
On page 81 I also report claims dating from the war years that veterans had been spat on. One was made by the psychiatrist Robert Lifton, the other by Chaplain (later Cardinal) John O’Connor. Neither was a first-person or even eyewitness claim. On page 82 I quote at length Murray Polner’s 1971 book “No Victory Parades” wherein he quotes veterans’ claims of mistreatment from anti-war activists.
Elsewhere, I written that I would be surprised if it had never happened. Indeed, I always thought that stronger evidence for actually spitting would have surfaced by now. I never thought, though, that the quantity and quality of evidence would ever be such that the mythical character of the stories would be negated.
Regarding my words that he quotes (”Truth is that the stories are bogus . . .”) I suppose I should have been more careful but I think most people can interpret them in the figurative sense in which they are meant.
Rearding Ari’s posting of 2/14/08/8:25 that my respose to Jim Lingren was “a bit small,” I took Lingren’s intervention to be more of a right-wing rant than something to be taken seriously and so I thought I would have some of my own fun with it.
By contract (to Lingren) the forgoing exchange here is one of the most thoughtful that I’ve followed on the issues of spat-upon veterans.
Jerry Lembcke |
Jerry Lembcke February 17, 2008 at 10:25 am | Quote: | Re PorJ’s last inquiry.
1) I don’t recall having known of any first-person eyewitness published accounts when I wrote The Spitting Image in the mid-late 1990s. I wrote to then-Cardinal O’Connor asking him if he personally saw troops spat on the the Pentagon and I get a oddly-worded response from an aide saying the Cardinal could not remember if he had seen or reported what had been told to him. We now have the Demar Pickett story which meets the criterion of having been reported in “the day.”
2) I’ve read the Pickett transcript** and it seems legit to me. But it’s still an accusation, not proof, and it was made about 6-months after it happened at a time (if I’m remembering correctly) when VVAW was in the news about its Winter Soldier hearings, the medal turn-in on the capital mall, and John Kerry’s speech. The point being that if someone accused you of breaking into their house six months ago, you wouldn’t want the accusation counted in court as proof. Jack Shafer, finally, reported that Pickett’s version of the story today has a different location for the spitting than the original version, a discrepancy that I don’t think is a serious flaw but neither should it be discarded.
3) I mean to be taken literally that the words are something like a “royal we,” e.g. in saying that “everyone knows” the Bush Administration lied about WMD, we also know that not literally does “everyone know” that. Someone in a previous posting to this thread makes the same point, I think. And, literally, it’s still true that we don’t know (for a fact) that any anti-war activists DID spit on Vietnam vets
Jerry Lembcke |
Jerry Lembcke February 17, 2008 at 10:35 am
| Quote: | A p.s. on my just-posted comment. Lingren cited a James Reston NY Times report of spitting at the Pentagon in 1967, a report that I was willing to count when I read Lingren. But a few months ago, Maurice Isserman at Hamilton College (writing his piece on the Pentagon demonstration that appeared in the Chronicle of Higher Education last fall) messaged me that he had delved into the Reston report and thinks Reston may not have seen it happen but rather reported something that had been told to him.
That was the case with the NY Times story about a year ago that at the Washington DC march and rally against the war in Iraq, an Iraq-war veteran and amputee was spat on by an anti-war opponent. I wrote to Ian Urbina, the Times reporter, to aske if he had seen it. The answer: no. It had been reported to him by his assistant. I wrote to her (Urbina gave me her contact information) to get her first-hand account and never heard back from her. I did hear, though, from a freelance photographer who said he was standing right behind the veteran when the incident supposedly happened and he saw no
spitting.
Jerry |
Then a later post by Jim Lindgren, to which Lembcke did not reply. This was a very long post-- just a snip here
Jim Lindgren March 21, 2008 at 11:19 pm
| Quote: |
Most of the Lembcke’s other reasons for discounting the stories fare as badly as what I see as his two main ones. For example, Lembcke claims that spitting stories were created by pro-war purported eyewitnesses to fulfill their pro-war psychological needs, but I show that some eyewitnesses were anti-war. Also, there was much more hostility between individual anti-war demonstrators and soldiers than Lembcke believes. And he actually makes the ridiculously sexist claim that “girls” don’t spit, which is easily debunked by looking at contemporary (and current) evidence.
Having told your students that spitting stories are false is not a good enough reason for treating them as false. That it seems highly likely that spitting was not as common as people came later to believe is not a good reason for treating almost all of the many plausible stories of spitting as false.
Such an attitude toward evidence shows that academics are just as susceptible as their students to fall for urban legends, in this case such folklore as:
(a) there were no contemporaneous spitting accounts,
(b) these accounts only started appearing around 1980,
(c) they almost all fit the same pattern,
(d) servicemen returning from Vietnam didn’t fly routinely into the San Francisco airport,
(e) there was not enough hostility in the streets between demonstrators and the military to generate spitting incidents (eg, read the Walker Report on this issue), and
(f) women don’t spit.
On one side, I see a mound of evidence, some of it seemingly quite sound, some of it merely plausible. On the other side, I see no evidence at all and a string of false factual claims that are easily refuted.
Why would any fair-minded scholar disbelieve dozens of seemingly honest reporters and narrators not known to be in error who are telling plausible stories and instead believe a scholar who tries his best to refute these stories but succeeds mainly in making a string of demonstrably false factual claims?
<>
Jim Lindgren
Northwestern University |
** details re the Delmar Picket transcript are posted on previous pages of this thread
_________________
.
one of..... We The People |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
|
| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2011 9:10 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Claims still pop up about this being a myth and evidence mounts that is isn't. One I just ran across A Vietnam Vet Fights Racism
Cleveland Kurtz is a pleasant, well-spoken man of 54. He is a Vietnam veteran with a good sense of humor. He holds a Master's degree and works at a university. He lives in a two-family home he owns in Providence, Rhode Island.
Based upon a series of interviews conducted by South Kingstown (RI) High School students in the Spring of 1998
| Quote: | When I returned home, it was kind of traumatic. These weren't the days when you were welcomed as a hero upon your return, and when I came home I came home to nothing. All the things that I had accomplished when I was working were gone and so that was really disappointing. For a while I had to live with my mother again, until I got back on my feet, so I was an unhappy customer.
Veterans were degraded, absolutely degraded. Horrendous, horrendous was the way we were treated. Nobody should be treated that way. I think that many {white] veterans got a chance when they came back from 'Nam to feel how it felt to be black, because we were all treated that way, with hostility and indifference. It was a time when people who hadn't really been discriminated against or treated like pariahs, got a chance to be treated that way.
The way most veterans dealt with it was to hang out with other veterans after first arriving home. Outside of that I had little contact with people. I was a closet vet; I didn't really talk about it except with the vets who were close to me, so most of my friends were veterans.
Seeing Vietnam veterans in wheelchairs and on crutches broke my heart. I realized every disabled Vietnam veteran has had a horrible humiliating experience with the Veterans Administration and I knew what that was like. If you see a disabled Vietnam veteran you are also looking at a person who was degraded to the max by his experiences trying to get his disability treated or trying to get fair treatment. I have a powerful reaction to the fact that this dude not only got injured physically or emotionally in the war, when he came back the Veterans Administration tried to take him out too. The country I came back to had absolutely no concern for disabled Vietnam veterans; they were considered pains in the butt and were treated as such.
After more time passed, I was a member of Vietnam Veterans against the War, and I worked with one of the groups that spoke out about bringing the veterans home right. The reception was decidedly mixed. It was the days of the hawks and the doves, with nothing in between. Some people, mostly students, were so antiwar as to make me almost uncomfortable. Both the students and the hawks had hostility towards the soldiers themselves. The traditional groups that support veterans were also often very hostile to Vietnam veterans and I had a couple of bad experiences and never bothered with them again until recently. |
_________________
Clark County Conservative |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BuffaloJack
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1637
Location: Buffalo, New York
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
For the record, I almost got spit on today.
I was in Walmart and there were two ladies standing in the produce section. They were blocking the item I needed. (My wife had instructed me to pick up a container of strawberries.) I said, "Excuse me", and pointed to the strawberries. The two were irritated that I was asking for them to move over a foot or two. One of them looked at my swiftboat veteran's cap and said, "Look, it's a Swift Boat Baby Killer." She then made a noise like she was getting ready to spit on me (you know the noise.) Before she could carry through with her intent, I looked her in the eye and told he that if she spit on me, I'd have her charged with assault.
I could see her swallow and walk away with her girl friend.
So, I avoided getting spit on.
It's hard to believe that after 40 years people still carry that 60s hatred of military with them.
_________________
Swift Boats - Qui Nhon (12/69-4/70), Cat Lo (4/70-5/70), Vung Tau (5/70-12/71) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Oh Jack, that is so bizarre! 
How old was she? I can't imagine anyone but an aging Jane Fonda groupie doing something like this.
I'll bet it would have really hurt your feelings to have to send that silly witch to jail. 
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
BuffaloJack
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 1637
Location: Buffalo, New York
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 06, 2012 11:24 pm Post subject: |
|
|
EJ,
It was bizarre. And you pegged it dead on: "aging Jane Fonda groupie" type between mid-to-upper 60s.
Jack
_________________
Swift Boats - Qui Nhon (12/69-4/70), Cat Lo (4/70-5/70), Vung Tau (5/70-12/71) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
They had no class back then and many never gained any as they aged.
_________________
Clark County Conservative |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
