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TEWSPilot
Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1235
Location: Kansas (Transplanted Texan)
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 Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:29 am Post subject: U.S. Navy Confirms Lost WWII Sub Found Off Aleutians |
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USS Grunion, which disappeared during World War II
| Quote: | PEARL HARBOR, Hawaii — The U.S. Navy has confirmed the wreckage of a sunken vessel found last year off the Aleutians Islands is that of the USS Grunion, which disappeared during World War II.
Underwater video footage and pictures captured by an expedition hired by sons of the commanding officer, Lt. Cmdr. Mannert L. Abele, allowed the Navy to confirm the discovery, Rear Adm. Douglas McAneny said Thursday in a news release.
McAneny said the Navy was very grateful to the Abele family.
"We hope this announcement will help to give closure to the families of the 70 crewmen of Grunion," he said.
The Grunion was last heard from July 30, 1942. The submarine reported heavy anti-submarine activity at the entrance to Kiska, and that it had 10 torpedoes remaining forward. On the same day, the Grunion was directed to return to Dutch Harbor Naval Operating Base. The submarine was reported lost Aug. 16, 1942.
Japanese anti-submarine attack data recorded no attack in the Aleutian area at the time of the Grunion's disappearance, so the submarine's fate remained an unsolved mystery for more than 60 years, the Navy said.
Abele's son's, Bruce, Brad and John, began working on a plan to find the sub after finding information on the Internet in 2002 that helped pinpoint USS Grunion's possible location.
In August 2006, a team of side scan sonar experts hired by the brothers located a target near Kiska almost a mile below the ocean's surface. A second expedition in August 2007 using a high definition camera on a remotely operated vehicle yielded video footage and high resolution photos of the wreckage. |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Readers Digest did a write-up on this story a couple months ago,
Mystery at Sea
They include a photo slideshow of the searchers and wreckage here
It's quite an interesting story of what led to the questions that ended up leading searchers to the site.
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Me#1You#10
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Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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Indications of hull compression suggest some remaining structural integrity during its final descent...a few minutes which I'd not care to contemplate. It will be interesting to see if a probable cause is discovered.
May God bless the men of the Grunion and their families for their sacrifice for our nation. |
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TEWSPilot
Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1235
Location: Kansas (Transplanted Texan)
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| Posted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The Japanese historian who responded to Lt. Col. Richard Lane's request for information on the Kano Maru sent these notes about a battle that took place off Kiska, an island in the Aleutians, in 1942.
31 July
05:47 Torpedoed by submarine Grunion (SS-216). One hit at machinery room starboard; main engine and generator stopped.
05:57 Second torpedo came but passed below the ship.
06:07 Third and fourth torpedoes came, hit forebridge and amidships on the port, but both duds. Grunion surfaced. Kano Maru's forecastle gun fired; fourth shot hit the conning tower of the sub. It is thought the last of Grunion. |
I'm still a bit confused about exactly what happened during the sequence. How did the Japanese freighter know which submarine had torpedoed them? What happened to the Kano Maru?
| Quote: | | The Grunion was last heard from July 30, 1942. The submarine reported heavy anti-submarine activity at the entrance to Kiska, and that it had 10 torpedoes remaining forward. On the same day, the Grunion was directed to return to Dutch Harbor Naval Operating Base. The submarine was reported lost Aug. 16, 1942. |
Grunion reported on the day before that they still had 10 torpedoes forward, so were they saving them in case they needed them later to complete their mission or to use during their escape afterwards if necessary or was their Top Secret mission just to sink the Kano Maru and return? Maybe the Kano Maru was not their primary target but instead a target of opportunity if Grunion was supposed to enter the harbor at Kiska but was prevented due to the intense anti-submarine activity and decided to take out what it could and then head for Dutch Harbor. It took the Navy more than two weeks after their last communication to declare Grunion lost, so is that how long it should have taken them to make it to Dutch Harbor or to break radio silence if they were supposed to be on a Top Secret mission?
It appears Grunion attacked the freighter Kano Maru somewhere off Kiska island using torpedoes. Perhaps they were discovered and had to attack or felt they had an opportunity to sink a significant enemy resource. They fired at least 4 torpedoes. Three of their torpedoes struck the freighter, one exploded and caused damage, one torpedo went underneath it, and two were duds. For reasons I don't understand, not being a submariner, they chose to surface and continue the attack using their deck gun(s). Did they think the freighter was unarmed or crippled to the point that it posed no threat to return fire, or was there another reason? The Readers Digest story does not indicate that they were in any distress or had to surface, so is this standard procedure? Maybe by now they were out of torpedoes or didn't trust the remaining ones or had a malfunction and couldn't fire any more. Perhaps a torpedo malfunctioned during launch and created a situation where they had to surface. Perhaps they struck a mine. The forward 20 feet was severely damaged, which could have been at least partly due to a torpedo malfunction or a mine, and such an event would force them to have to surface one would think. The remaining damage could have been caused as it sank and succombed to the intense pressures at those depths.
I would never presume to second guess a command decision during a battle, especially with so little information to examine, I'm just trying to learn. These were undoubtedly brave and skilled sailors and officers engaged in a battle for their lives, and their loss should be recognized as a part of the price of freedom which was eventually secured. |
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GoophyDog
PO1
Joined: 10 Jun 2004
Posts: 480
Location: Washington - The Evergreen State
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Tews - I'm just speculating here:
They got the name of the sub probably AFTER the surfacing (conning tower markings) and the historian inserted that into the log.
Why surface? If memory serves, our torpedoes were still extremely unreliable until at least mid 1943. Depth adjustments were erratic and as recorded here, detonation was too. My guess is the captain called for action surface out of frustration - he'd already had three misses/duds and this was just a freighter - not worthy of more than 4 war shots.
The freighter got off a lucky shot to the conning tower that would explain the RD pictures showing a bent, open hatch. My guess again is that the shot took out a good portion of the bridge crew and may have caused other internal damage. I don't buy the 'extreme internal pressure' causing all of the hatch damage as noted in the pic caption.
As for the comms - not unusual, especially in Alaska. Probably on a sched and the action occurred between contact times. They were probably declared missing after a few missed comm times and then lost after not making port. The two weeks seems a bit long, probably double what the normal sailing time was.
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TEWSPilot
Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1235
Location: Kansas (Transplanted Texan)
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| Posted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Thanks for the insight. I've been checking with some of my Navy buddies. One was a seaman on the Oriskany, another was a Pilot flying off the Oriskany and also flew off the same carrier McCain was on at one time, and another was a submariner. The submariner was on a sub that sank during testing (only a few feet of water, so it was quickly raised and repaired). One gave a similar answer to yours about the ID of the sub by the Japanese, possibly saw markings when it surfaced or possibly heard radio transmissions. Damage report you gave makes sense. If they hit the Con, there would be a lot of internal damage and overpressure immediately, and seams could even have given, allowing water to pour in. With the command structure taken out, there would have been a lot of confusion and chaos below. A real tragedy.
I remember a John Wayne movie where they were having a lot of problems with dud torpedoes, and they ended up fixing the problem by using aluminum firing pins...don't remember the name of the movie. |
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TEWSPilot
Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 1235
Location: Kansas (Transplanted Texan)
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| Posted: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:28 am Post subject: |
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Updates are posted on these two sites (lots of photos and history):
Grunion Home Page
Grunion Blog Page
Excellent discussion of the Attack Scenario and possible causes for the loss
... predominant theory during early postings from various analysts (several submariners) was that a circular run of a MK-14 torpedo struck the forward torpedo room. Further analysis and giving more credence to eyewitness accounts points more to a lucky shot by an 8cm shell that penetrated into the conning tower and into the control room, possibly hitting a 5" shell or high pressure lines or some combination of the above. Circular torpedo is looking less likely, but if 5 of the 6 torpedoes they fired hadn't been defective, they would have sunk the freighter and never would have been in a position for the freighter to be shooting at them and would have returned to port. The freighter was sunk a day or two later by air attack. |
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I B Squidly
Vice Admiral
Joined: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 879
Location: Cactus Patch
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| Posted: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:42 am Post subject: |
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A read of the literature describes the poor design of the torpedos. A read of the literature also describes how the Silent Service eventually sought to emulate the Kriegs Marine's U-Boats where fish were saved for combatants and surface gunnery was used for all else. Q Ships never proved effective for the Brits and that includes the Luisitania. A reluctant BZ to the Japos to pull it off. Of course I wasn't a bubblehead, just a glorified deck ape.
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