SwiftVets.com

[sparky]

The world press is abuzz: Why did the Bush administration ignore reports by the Red Cross about conditions in the Abu Ghraib prison and permit the widespread human rights violations to become a worldwide outrage?

Does the Bush administration have something to gain by alienating the entire world outside of Coalitionistan?

Last week, Amnesty International accused the British government of killing prisoners at Camp Bucca, near Basra. Despite months of Red Cross warnings, Monday, British Prime Minister Tony Blair said no one told him.

A spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva said Monday that the organization's president, Jakob Kellenberger, complained about the prison abuses directly to top Bush administration officials during a two-day visit to Washington in mid-January when he met with Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, the national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz.

The Red Cross told NBC News it made at least 29 visits to 14 separate Iraqi detention sites between March and October 2003, each time complaining in person and in writing to Coalition authority and military leaders.

Yet concern about these matters only came about when the less grisly pictures of abuse and torture were smattered over the worldwide media. Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch said, "It was only when the pictures made them irrefutable that they then began to take action."

Among the findings in the Red Cross report, which called some of the abuses "tantamount to torture":

Prison guards often opened fire with live ammunition on detainees who "were unarmed and did not appear to pose any serious threat to anyone's life".

As many as 90 percent of the prisoners had been arrested by mistake.

This thread is intended to open a discussion about who in the Bush administration should step down. Should Rumsfeld and Rice both step down? Should we close the Abu Ghraib prison? Can the US be trusted to behave responsibly with those it captures in Iraq?

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

[sparky]

Where did I get the idea that the Bush administration disregarded the Red Cross reports?

From the Red Cross. How on Earth could you have missed this, NNN?

The 90% figure was from Coalition military intelligence officials (see bold commentary below). The highly-respected Red Cross affirms this.

The well-respected ICRC determined that upwards of 90% of the detainees were arrested by mistake and didn't base that on prisoner assertions of innocence.

From the LA Times, article I strongly recommend everyone read:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-redcross11may11,1,7724354.story?coll=la-home-headlines
IRAQ PRISON SCANDAL

Most 'Arrested by Mistake'
Coalition intelligence put numbers at 70% to 90% of Iraq prisoners, says a February Red Cross report, which details further abuses.

By Bob Drogin, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Coalition military intelligence officials estimated that 70% to 90% of prisoners detained in Iraq since the war began last year "had been arrested by mistake," according to a confidential Red Cross report given to the Bush administration earlier this year.

Yet the report described a wide range of prisoner mistreatment — including many new details of abusive techniques — that it said U.S. officials had failed to halt, despite repeated complaints from the International Committee of the Red Cross.

ICRC monitors saw some improvements by early this year, but the continued abuses "went beyond exceptional cases and might be considered as a practice tolerated" by coalition forces, the report concluded.

The Swiss-based ICRC, which made 29 visits to coalition-run prisons and camps between late March and November last year, said it repeatedly presented its reports of mistreatment to prison commanders, U.S. military officials in Iraq and members of the Bush administration in Washington.

The ICRC summary report, which was written in February, also said Red Cross officials had complained to senior military officials that families of Iraqi suspects usually were told so little that most arrests resulted "in the de facto 'disappearance' of the arrestee for weeks or even months."

The report also described previously undocumented forms of abuse of prisoners in U.S. custody. In October, for example, an Iraqi prisoner was "hooded, handcuffed in the back, and made to lie face down" on what investigators believe was the engine hood of a vehicle while he was being transported. He was hospitalized for three months for extensive burns to his face, abdomen, foot and hand, the report added.

More than 100 "high-value detainees," apparently including former senior officials in Saddam Hussein's regime and in some cases their family members, were held for five months at the Baghdad airport "in strict solitary confinement" in small cells for 23 hours a day, the report said.

Such conditions "constituted a serious violation" of the Third and Fourth Geneva Conventions, which set minimum standards for treatment of prisoners of war and civilian internees, the report said. U.S. intelligence agencies, including the CIA and the Defense Intelligence Agency, conducted interrogations at the site, but Army units were in charge of custody operations, officials said Monday.

Portions of the ICRC report were published last week. The full 24-page report, which The Times obtained Monday, cites more than 250 allegations of mistreatment at prisons and temporary detention facilities run by U.S. and other occupation forces across Iraq.

The report also referred to, but provided no details of, "allegations of deaths as a result of harsh internment conditions, ill treatment, lack of medical attention, or the combination thereof."

Spokesmen at the Pentagon and at U.S. Central Command headquarters said they had not seen the ICRC report and could not comment on specific charges. ICRC officials in Geneva said they regretted that the document became public. The ICRC usually shares its findings only with governments or other authorities to maintain access to detainees held in conflicts around the world.

Among the abusive techniques detailed in the report was forcing detainees to wear hoods for up to four consecutive days.

"Hooding was sometimes used in conjunction with beatings, thus increasing anxiety as to when blows would come," the report said. "The practice of hooding also allowed the interrogators to remain anonymous and thus to act with impunity."

In some cases, plastic handcuffs allegedly were so tight for so long that they caused long-term nerve damage. Men were punched, kicked and beaten with rifles and pistols; faces were pressed "into the ground with boots." Prisoners were threatened with reprisals against family members, execution or transfer to the U.S. lockup at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

The report also provides new details about the now-notorious Abu Ghraib prison, the focus of the prisoner abuse scandal.

During a visit to the "isolation section" of Abu Ghraib prison in October, ICRC delegates witnessed prisoners "completely naked in totally empty concrete cells and in total darkness, allegedly for several consecutive days."

A military intelligence officer, who is not identified in the report, told the ICRC monitors that such treatment was "part of the process" in which prisoners were given clothing, bedding, lights and toiletries in exchange for cooperation.

The ICRC sent its report to the military police brigade commander in charge of Abu Ghraib after the October visit, and the commander responded Dec. 24, a senior Pentagon official said last week. But the Pentagon did not launch a formal investigation into abuses at the prison until a low-ranking U.S. soldier approached military investigators Jan. 13 and gave them a computer disc of photos.

The ICRC report also describes torture and other brutal practices by Iraqi police working in Baghdad under the U.S.-led occupation.

It cites cases in which suspects held by Iraqi police allegedly were beaten with cables, kicked in the testicles, burned with cigarettes and forced to sign confessions.

In June, a group of men arrested by Iraqi police "allegedly had water poured on their legs and had electrical shocks administered to them with stripped tips of electrical wires," the report notes.

One man's mother was brought in, "and the policeman threatened to mistreat her." Another detainee "was threatened with having his wife brought in and raped."

"Many persons deprived of their liberty drew parallels between police practices under the occupation with those of the former regime," the report noted.

[sparky]

But Pierre Kraehenbuehl, the Red Cross’ director of operations, said Friday that the report was given to U.S. officials in February. He said it only summarized what the agency had been telling U.S. officials in detail from March to November 2003 “either in direct face-to-face conversations or in written interventions.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4944094/

[sparky]

Report: Rumsfeld OK’d Iraq interrogation plan

Secret program for Afghanistan spread to prison, magazine says

WASHINGTON - Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld approved a plan that brought unconventional interrogation methods to Iraq to gain intelligence about the growing insurgency, ultimately leading to the abuse of Iraqi prisoners, the New Yorker magazine reported Saturday.

Rumsfeld, who has been under fire for the prisoner abuse scandal, gave the green light to methods previously used in Afghanistan for gathering intelligence on members of al-Qaida, which the United States blames for the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, the magazine reported on its Web site.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/

I strongly encourage all freedom-loving Americans to read that link.

First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a socialist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me--
and there was no one left to speak out for me.

[George F. Thompson]

Well Sparky, I guess by employing a liberals convoluted reasonig process, one could say the prison population of of innocent people being incarcerated while under Saddam's regime has declined from 100% to between 70% to 90%. The blame America first crowd are having a field day with the events that happened at the Abu Ghraib prison. I would love to see some of the actual video or photos of atrocities that were commited by Saddam's son Uday, being aired concurrently with the just released photos shown on CBS. I'm sure it would put everything in proper perspective. I wonder how many of the hundred's of thousand's Iraq's that were systematicaly tortured or executed were innoncent? What the American military personnel did was despicable. I'm sure they will be punished for there transgressions. The national hand wringing and act of contrition is pathetic. One can already see a cause and effect relationship has been established by the brutal execution of Nicolas Berg. Even this sad event is being blamed on the administration. Granted a certain amount of culpability can be attributed to President Bush. Our country dosen't exactly have a pristine record when it comes to certain human rights issues during the time of war. Hell look at the internment of the Japanese-Americans during WWII. The United States really screwed the pooch on that one. Just one time I would like to see the same standards applied. No half truths, innuendo or pointing the finger will help resolve the problems in Iraq. It seems to give many a liberal or conserative a perverse pleasure in seeing our country fail, especially if it's not our team thats running the show. The United States was attacked on 9/11 not just a segment of our society, but everyone of us. And no it's not just Bush's war, it our war. I know there is some conflict as to what our priorities should have been, Osama bin Laden or Saddam. Hell their both cut from the same cloth. It's very easy to be an arm chair general. It's a damn shame the whole military is being sterotyped as being brutal and sadistic malcontents. But if my memory serves me correctley, I'm pretty sure there's one person, who is now an esteemed senator from New England, once did this to our very own troops in 1971. I'm pretty sure you know who I'm referrring too. Once the damage is done, it' done forever. Contrary to popular belief we are not the enemy, it's the radical Islamist who is our foe. And as for you poem, don't worry Sparky, we won't let them come for you. If anyone has a well defined idea as to what free speech is, just ask a veteran, be they, libereal, conservative, democrat, republican or independent they can tell you.

George F Thompson

[fortdixlover]

Sparky,

>>> The world press is abuzz: Why did the Bush administration ignore reports by the Red Cross about conditions in the Abu Ghraib prison and permit the widespread human rights violations to become a worldwide outrage?

Yes, the very same world press NOT abuzz about the brutal, savage, barbarian beheading by steak knife while conscious of a U.S. Jewish 24-year-old businessman. We're all impressed by the moral fortitude of the leftist world press.

>>> Does the Bush administration have something to gain by alienating the entire world outside of Coalitionistan?

No. Let's be friends with the world's assorted dictators, gulag keepers, women apartheidists, cheese-eating surrender monkeys, and psychotic mass murderers. That's the most important thing in the world.

>>> A spokesman for the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva said Monday that the organization's president, Jakob Kellenberger, complained about the prison abuses directly to top Bush administration officials during a two-day visit to Washington in mid-January when he met with Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, the national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy Defense Secretary Paul D. Wolfowitz.

And the public press releases about them, from DOD itself to the media, and actions to stop them in this one cellblock, happened months ago.

>>> The Red Cross told NBC News it made at least 29 visits to 14 separate Iraqi detention sites between March and October 2003, each time complaining in person and in writing to Coalition authority and military leaders.

The Red Cross finds problems in all prisons, worldwide. Except if it's a prison in a dictatoriship, they get a free pass.

>> Yet concern about these matters only came about when the less grisly pictures of abuse and torture were smattered over the worldwide media. Kenneth Roth of Human Rights Watch said, "It was only when the pictures made them irrefutable that they then began to take action."

Ah, the hysterical lies of leftists. Would make Josef Goebbels proud. "Concern" about "this matter" has been ongoing for months. We don't do instant trials and executions yet, far as I know.

>> Among the findings in the Red Cross report, which called some of the abuses "tantamount to torture":

Prison guards often opened fire with live ammunition on detainees who "were unarmed and did not appear to pose any serious threat to anyone's life". As many as 90 percent of the prisoners had been arrested by mistake.

How come there was no outcry over the "tortures" in Saddam's prison? See http://members.cox.net/free_iraq/Free_Iraq.htm .

>>> This thread is intended to open a discussion about who in the Bush administration should step down.

Answer: nobody.

>>> Can the US be trusted to behave responsibly with those it captures in Iraq?

Answer: yes.

Now, Sparky, any more stupid questions?

Thanks.

[ROTC DAD]

It amazes me that many of you can write how terrible Kerry was for speaking out against the War in Vietnam after he returned on one forum but see no problem with the abuses and tirture which are going on right now under the present administration. And as usual, the arguement made is "Well, Saddam was worse."

Worse how? Saddam never claimed the moral high ground. Never claimed that he was better then the petty tyrannical sociopath he was. He was terrible; he and the world knew it. He never claimed otherwise.

We did. And then we went and did the same things he did. Yet this in no way seems to be an issue with many of you. What does that say about us, I wonder?

[Craig]

[Craig]

[Craig]

[Craig]

[fortdixlover]

[js]

[js]