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DEL
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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 Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject: A serious question |
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First let me preface; I'm a navy Vietnam vet,retired firefighter, former union leader and have never voted for a republican president in my life.
I must ask in all seriousness, since Mr. Kerry has on many occasions professed to carrying out war crimes while in service to this country and has to date never received even reprimand for these acts and in light of world outrage over the Iraq prison debacle, what message will we as a nation send to the world by elevating a self-proclaimed war criminal to the office of president? |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 9:35 pm Post subject: |
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We've already settled that matter here (except for a few Branch Davidian-type holdouts), Del.
Kerry never professed on any occasion to committing a war crime.
That's why nobody here has ever described any actual "war crimes" committed by Kerry. You'd think someone would point to a baby killing or random shooting of civilians or something before they'd make that accusation.
This explains why Kerry was never reprimanded and why the world will be pleased with November's victory for Kerry.
What exactly were the "war crimes" you believe Kerry committed? |
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DEL
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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Well not being a legal expert I must take Mr. Kerry at his word.
http://www.wintersoldier.com/audio/kerry2.mp3 Yes I have read the debate and know the acts he refers to may or may not constitute crimes.
Since Mr. Kerry was there, he would be best to judge his own actions.He has and labeled them war crimes. Are you suggesting he doesn't know what he is talking about? Are you suggesting because this board has concluded so concludes the world?
This is a serious question. It is not a question of arcane legal wording.
Mr. Kerry professes to being a war criminal. The question is ,what message will electing a self proclaimed war criminal send to the world? |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:12 pm Post subject: Better Question |
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| What will we be telling the world if we elect a man who lies to get us into the Iraq war? |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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What exactly were the "war crimes" you believe Kerry committed? I can't get my MP3 player to work so maybe you could just list a few.
Odd that we've gotten this far into the thread and you haven't yet stated what Kerry is supposed to have done.
Something tells me they weren't war crimes at all! |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | What will we be telling the world if we elect a man who lies to get us into the Iraq war? |
Since we didn't elect him last time, that's a good question. The world watches in horror as the leader of the world's most powerful nation, one whose military might is more heavily funded than the next twenty most powerful combined, manipulates and lies his way into an oil grab.
Try Google News to find out. You can find out what the world thinks at the click of a mouse. Right now searching for "bush idiot" brings almost 3x the hits as "swift boat veterans for truth" |
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DEL
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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Well I have never accused Mr. Kerry of anything. It is Mr. Kerry who has stated on more than one occation.
There are all kinds of atrocities, and I would have to say that, yes, yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free fire zones. I conducted harassment and interdiction fire. I used 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people. I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages. All of this is contrary to the laws of warfare, all of this is contrary to the Geneva Conventions and all of this is ordered as a matter of written established policy by the government of the United States from the top down. And I believe that the men who designed these, the men who designed the free fire zone, the men who ordered us, the men who signed off the air raid strike areas, I think these men, by the letter of the law, the same letter of the law that tried Lieutenant Calley, are war criminals.
-- John Kerry, on NBC's "Meet the Press" April 18, 1971
So the question remains, what message do we send to the world if we elect a self-confessed war crininal? |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 11:30 pm Post subject: |
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And Bush lied again yesterday.
| Quote: | | At a fund-raising lunch in Bridgeton, Missouri, Bush said Zarqawi was an example of the threat posed by the ousted Iraqi leader. "We knew he (Saddam) had terrorist ties. The person responsible for the Berg death, Zarqawi, was in and out of Baghdad prior to our arrival, for example," Bush said |
We all know Zarqawi was in Northern Iraq, which was under the control of Saddam's favorite Kurds. But this lie is even worse when you consider the following.
| Quote: |
But NBC News has learned that long before the war the Bush administration had several chances to wipe out his terrorist operation and perhaps kill Zarqawi himself — but never pulled the trigger.
In June 2002, U.S. officials say intelligence had revealed that Zarqawi and members of al-Qaida had set up a weapons lab at Kirma, in northern Iraq, producing deadly ricin and cyanide.
The Pentagon quickly drafted plans to attack the camp with cruise missiles and airstrikes and sent it to the White House, where, according to U.S. government sources, the plan was debated to death in the National Security Council.
‘People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president’s policy of pre-emption against terrorists.’
— Roger Cressey
Terrorism expert
“Here we had targets, we had opportunities, we had a country willing to support casualties, or risk casualties after 9/11 and we still didn’t do it,” said Michael O’Hanlon, military analyst with the Brookings Institution.
Four months later, intelligence showed Zarqawi was planning to use ricin in terrorist attacks in Europe.
The Pentagon drew up a second strike plan, and the White House again killed it. By then the administration had set its course for war with Iraq.
“People were more obsessed with developing the coalition to overthrow Saddam than to execute the president’s policy of preemption against terrorists,” according to terrorism expert and former National Security Council member Roger Cressey.
In January 2003, the threat turned real. Police in London arrested six terror suspects and discovered a ricin lab connected to the camp in Iraq.
The Pentagon drew up still another attack plan, and for the third time, the National Security Council killed it.
Military officials insist their case for attacking Zarqawi’s operation was airtight, but the administration feared destroying the terrorist camp in Iraq could undercut its case for war against Saddam |
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4431601/ |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Mikest,
Are you claiming that Saddam had no terrorist ties?
_________________
De Oppresso Liber |
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sparky
Former Member
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 546
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 9:02 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for listing those "atrocities," Del. Here are the "atrocities" you're claiming that Kerry admitted to comitting:
o Shootings in free fire zones.
o Harassment and interdiction fire.
o Using 50 calibre machine guns, which we were granted and ordered to use, which were our only weapon against people.
o Search and destroy missions
o Burning of villages.
Was there anyone serving in combat zones who *wasn't* a war criminal by that definition? Are all Vietnam combat vets equally guilty? Do you really think these are "war crimes"?
I think Kerry was wrong: those weren't, in themselves, war crimes. He had to wait for the fog of war to lift to realize he was wrong as he later admitted. And I think that will be the message we send the rest of the world, depending on how intent Kerry critics are in spreading that message. |
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Marine4life
Senior Chief Petty Officer
Joined: 14 May 2004
Posts: 591
Location: California
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 9:19 am Post subject: |
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In his own record and testimony he finished off a wounded, retreating VC that had a chance to kill him and his men but didn't. 40 mm grenade launcher pointed at him but didn't shoot, I think I read that Kerry got the bronze star for that. Under the geneva convention that is a war crime. Not saying that I would do anything different but I sure as heck wouldn't brag about it, or accuse someone else of crimes with that over my head.
_________________
Helicopter Marine Attack Squadron 169 which is now HMLA-169. They added Huey's to compliment the Cobra effectiveness. When I served we just had Snakes. |
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Craig
Guest
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Marine4life wrote: | | In his own record and testimony he finished off a wounded, retreating VC that had a chance to kill him and his men but didn't. 40 mm grenade launcher pointed at him but didn't shoot, I think I read that Kerry got the bronze star for that. Under the geneva convention that is a war crime. Not saying that I would do anything different but I sure as heck wouldn't brag about it, or accuse someone else of crimes with that over my head. |
"... had a chance to kill him and his men but didn't. ...."
Could you elaborate on that characterization of yours?
What do you suppose would come of shooting the weapon at something ten feet away?
Could you describe what you would have done instead? |
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DEL
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 08 May 2004
Posts: 49
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 11:34 am Post subject: |
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Well Sparky you can type but seems you can't read.
I have listed nothing these are Kerry's words.
If you would bother to inform yourself you would find ALL,except using a 50cal, Can be crimes. IT would be situation dependant.
Kerry was a naval officer. Well schooled in the ability to discern legal from criminal action. HE said HIS actions were criminal.
I believe him.
I don't know what you think. I spent 1year 11 months and 22days in country. I never saw anyone commit a war crime!
There were atrocities committed. Kerry clamed,in71' and again '01 that HE in fact committed crimes.
This isn't about "Kerry" but rather his admission and the effect it will have on this country. |
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Greenhat
LCDR
Joined: 09 May 2004
Posts: 405
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | Mikest,
Are you claiming that Saddam had no terrorist ties? |
Just to remind Mikest.
_________________
De Oppresso Liber |
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mikest
PO2
Joined: 11 May 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Greenhat wrote: | | Greenhat wrote: | Mikest,
Are you claiming that Saddam had no terrorist ties? |
Just to remind Mikest. |
Saddams ties to Al Queda were tenuous at best. Bush tried to tie Zarkawi's group to Saddam, but failed to mention the fact that he was in Kurdish territory. Every other tie to Al Queda was disproven or discredited.
Saddam's biggest tie was to the Palistinian suicide bombers, a f*ed up group if there ever was one, but not a large threat to us. Abu Nidal was allowed to die in Iraq, but we let Nazi's come here after WWII and that does not make us supporters of Hitler (except for a few A-holes on both sides).
But to the meat of the article, if people can blame Clinton for not getting OBL, why do they ignore this article? |
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