 |
SwiftVets.com
Service to Country
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
baldeagl
PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: Texas
|
 Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:46 am Post subject: Working on a spreadsheet/timeline |
 |
|
I'm trying to get all the dates/names/places sorted out, and I've started a spreadsheet to keep it all organized. The things I'm interested in are dates and descriptions of incidents, who was there, what boats were there, etc., etc.
In reading the Boston Globe article about Kerry (published 6/16/2003 - Kranish), I read about an incident that I'm very curious about.
| Quote: | In any case, Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk. So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr.]/quote]
Can anyone confirm or deny this story? Were any of the Swift vets in attendance at this meeting? How many days did it last? "Several dozen ...skippers and officers" sounds unlikely to me when you consider that they were in a war zone with a job to do. Did this really happen? |
_________________
antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
I've read other versions that indicate that this incident was made up of whole cloth.
Bandit, ASPB? Any other of you heavy-lifters got links to the other versions?
I'll bet it'll be in the book. 
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baldeagl
PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:53 am Post subject: |
|
|
I have a second question. In the Globe article, an incident is mentioned where three crewmates on the 44 were wounded by a mortar richochet.
| Quote: | One of Kerry's crewmates on swift boat No. 44 said such an event happened. Drew Whitlow of Arkansas said he was on patrol with Kerry when Whitlow spotted movement along the shore and yelled, "I'm going to fire!" The quiet river exploded in gunfire, with people on the shoreline dropping, dead or wounded, and no fire being returned.
Whitlow recalled the scene: "This is a free fire zone, I will fire, I will put rounds in, I'm doing my thing, I'm feeling Mr. Macho. But then when you get close, you see the expressions of the village people, people waving their arms, saying, `No, no, no! Wait a minute, hold this off.' I ended up putting a few down, and then I found out it was friendlies."
To make matters worse, a mortar round ricocheted back at the boat and wounded three crewmen. |
Is there any documentation of this incident? Anyone know who the three wounded crewmates were? (This would have had to have occurred in either December or early January '69.)
Anyone know the exact date that Kerry became OinC of PCF-94?[/quote]
_________________
antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
Have you checked out the "Proof Why Kerry and Comrades are lying" thread?
There's a LOT of data in there!
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baldeagl
PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:02 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | Have you checked out the "Proof Why Kerry and Comrades are lying" thread?
There's a LOT of data in there! |
Yes, and that will be included in my analysis, but right now I'm working only with Kerry sources (because those will be more devastating when proven to be false) and actual witnesses to events. IOW, if someone attended that 1/22 meeting in Saigon and is reading this board, I need to know that. If someone knows with certainty that Kerry was not in Saigon on 1/22, then I need to know that.
Eventually, I will publish this on the web, and I suspect it will be very devastating to Kerry's version of the truth. We may not need it by then, but I'm not taking any chances on the press lying about any of this (as they will unless we bloggers catch them and put the screws to them bigtime - which means using their own words to hang them - hoist on their own petard.
I have a bigger goal than sinking Kerry and electing Bush. I want to expose the media on this. Expose them to the point that they can no longer blow smoke up the average American's stern.
_________________
antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
4moreyears
Former Member
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 591
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
The press owes the vets a 35 year over due apology...they'll do what ever is needed not to have to give it.
_________________
 kerry returned to the United States on July 22, 1971, held a press conference publicly calling on President Nixon... for the surrender of the United States to North Vietnam. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baldeagl
PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
Can anyone verify or refute this story by Fred Short - on March 4, 1968 he claims they were ambushed and "800 of 900 troops died that day"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C85459%2C00.html
I don't buy it. This sounds like pure BS to me. Was there ever that many people involved in Swift boat operations? Even including some sort of amphibious assault?
_________________
antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baldeagl
PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Was anyone here aware that both Fred Short and Drew Whitlow are Arkansas state veterans coordinators for Kerry's campaign? And Wade Sanders is a California coordinator?
(Kerry's folks might do "brown books" on Swiftvets, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.)
_________________
antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:32 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Sen. Kerry Reunites With Vietnam Crewman
Tuesday, April 29, 2003
LITTLE ROCK, Ark. — Painful memories of three North Vietnamese ambushes became a matter of joyous pride for Fred Short as he was reunited with the Navy patrol boat commander who he said saved the whole crew by charging into the teeth of the enemy attack.
It had been 34 years to the day since Short of North Little Rock last saw that lieutenant: current Massachusetts senator and Democratic presidential hopeful John Kerry (search).
Their warm embrace Monday in front of a gathering of more than 150 Democrats was the climax of Kerry's campaign swing through the home state of former President Clinton.
Kerry repeatedly praised the state's Democratic Party for producing Clinton and loosened up the crowd by alluding to a conversation he had with the former Arkansas governor earlier in the morning.
"I asked President Clinton for some advice before my visit, and in true form he gave me so much advice I couldn't use any of it," Kerry joked.
Kerry criticized President Bush for "reversing" the budget surplus and job growth accomplished during the Clinton administration, saying, "We need to be smart the way Bill Clinton was smart in the 1990s."
Kerry also took shots at his Democratic colleagues in Congress for not standing up to the Bush administration.
"We don't need a Democratic Party that says to the president's plan, 'Yes, but a little slower,' or 'Yes, but a little less,'" he said. "We don't need a second Republican Party."
But Kerry's main focus, both in his remarks and in a campaign video played before his speech, was his military career and his dedication to the U.S. armed forces and veterans' causes.
Before leaving the gathering, Kerry and Short looked at a photograph of themselves and four other crew members of their patrol boat. Short said he found the photo on the online auction site eBay (search), being sold by a woman who had found it at a junk sale in Arizona.
Short recalled the third of three ambushes on their group of boats on March 4, 1969, when his twin 50-caliber machine guns couldn't tilt low enough to shoot a Viet Cong soldier lying in a ditch, aiming a rocket launcher at their boat.
"We were in a small canal and normally we would have tried to exit, but Mr. Kerry ordered us to charge," Short said. "While I shot high, he and Tommy Bellodeau charged under me, right at the guy, and we routed them. That's why Mr. Kerry won the Silver Star."
Short said the crew avoided any casualties, even though 800 of 900 American troops caught in that zone died that day. He said it was a few weeks later, April 28, 1969, that he finished his tour and last saluted Kerry. |
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:34 am Post subject: |
|
|
| baldeagl wrote: | Was anyone here aware that both Fred Short and Drew Whitlow are Arkansas state veterans coordinators for Kerry's campaign? And Wade Sanders is a California coordinator?
(Kerry's folks might do "brown books" on Swiftvets, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander.) |
We knew from some former releases of Kerry's campaign financial records that at least some of his former enlisted were paid and/or reimbursed for expenses.
Are these coordinator jobs paid positions?
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
cipher
Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 902
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:38 am Post subject: |
|
|
| baldeagl wrote: | Can anyone verify or refute this story by Fred Short - on March 4, 1968 he claims they were ambushed and "800 of 900 troops died that day"
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0%2C2933%2C85459%2C00.html
I don't buy it. This sounds like pure BS to me. Was there ever that many people involved in Swift boat operations? Even including some sort of amphibious assault? |
I don't want to put my oar in, however, this is a bit too hard to pass up.
The TOTAL number of USN KIAs for the entire year 1969 is well-documented at 426. Granted, the use of the word "troops" is ambiguous, however, the implication is USN personnel. (edited to reflect the cited year and correct KIA figure)
If you need more specific KIA info, this is the place to go:
http://thewall-usa.com/stats/index.html |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baldeagl
PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:58 am Post subject: |
|
|
I don't know yet if the state veterans coordinators are paid or not. If anyone knows that for a fact, please post it here.
And "guys", I have a full-time job, so I'm going this work in my "free" time. If I don't get back to you right away, just keep posting anything that confirms or refutes the things that I question. I'll check back here daily as I build this spreadsheet.
_________________
antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
baldeagl
PO3
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 260
Location: Texas
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
More questions. According to Kerry's website
| Quote: | | The policy of Coastal Squadron One, the swift boat command, was to send home any individual who is wounded three times in action. After sustaining his third wound from enemy action in Vietnam, Kerry was granted relief under this policy. |
I doubt this is true. Can anyone confirm or refute that this was the policy of CS-1? Or was Kerry the one exception to the rule?[/quote]
_________________
antimedia
USN OST-6 68-74
http://antimedia.blogspot.com/ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
|
| Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:31 am Post subject: Re: Working on a spreadsheet/timeline |
|
|
| Quote: | | baldeagl wrote: | | Quote: | | In any case, Kerry said he was appalled that the Navy's ''free fire zone'' policy put civilians at such high risk. So, on Jan. 22, 1969, Kerry and several dozen fellow skippers and officers traveled to Saigon to complain about the policy in an extraordinary meeting with Zumwalt and the overall commander of the war, General Creighton W. Abrams Jr. |
|
Can anyone confirm or deny this story? Were any of the Swift vets in attendance at this meeting? How many days did it last? "Several dozen ...skippers and officers" sounds unlikely to me when you consider that they were in a war zone with a job to do. Did this really happen? |
It happened, but not for the "spin" that Kerry puts on it. It makes it sound like he did it on his own initiative to "collar" some flag rank and give him the what-for. BUNK!
As I understand it, Zumwault and Abrams were holding "morale-enhancement" (my phrase) briefings for various Swiftee divisions shortly after the onset of Sealord. Kerry had no part (as he would have you believe in the above statement) in initiating that meeting. Coastal 11 was directed to attend as was Coastal 13 (you can read a reference to Coastal 13's meeting with Zum/Abrams in their January, '69, newsletter which is available on their website.) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
