SwiftVets.com

[kate]

A thread for just posting transcripts of the SVPT, and save discussion for other threads.

Transcripts posted so far ...to make your scrolling easier

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Sean Hannity Radio show. August 5, 2004
Van Odell and Adm. Hoffman plus Scott Swett of wintersoldier.com

Kevin McCulough / WMCA 570 Radio / August 6, 2004
Thomas Wright interview, partial transcript - Kerry asked to leave Vietnam

CNN - aired August 5, 2004
Judy Woodruff with Larry Thurlow, SVPT and Jim Rassmann, Kerry supporter

National Review online - jim geraghty reporting
LEWIS LETSON EXPLAINS KERRY'S WOUND [08/06 03:33 PM]
Lewis Letson, who discusses Kerry’s wound in the Swift Boat Vets’ ad

Hannity & Colmes," Sean Hannity & Susan Estrich
Van ODell, Swiftie
Jim Rassmann, Kerry supporter
Friday, August 06, 2004

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Kevin McCullough Radio Talk Show
KERRY'S COMMANDING OFFICER SOUNDS OFF:
Kerry commanding officer, Captain Adrian Lonsdale will weigh in on Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia"

"Kerry's Purple Heart Doc!" In his own words...
John Kerry's "Purple Heart Doc" describes the "injury" Kerry suffered in order to qualify for it. Dr.Lewis Letson
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CNN WOLF BLITZER REPORTS August 11, 2004
With……….. JOHN ONEILL
ADMIRAL WILLIAM CROWE

CNN AMERICAN MORNING August 6, 2004
Bill Hemmer, CNN ANCHOR:
BOB ELDER Swiftie
Del Sandusky supports Kerry

Hardball with Chris Matthews' for August 9
Andy Horne Swiftie
John Hurley Kerry Vet Coord

Hardball with Chris Matthew' August 12
Guest: John Hurley Kerry campaign
John O‘Neill Swiftie

Scarborough Country' for August 10
PAT BUCHANAN, GUEST HOST
Guest: John Kobylt, Ken Chiampou, Jeh Johnson, Ted Sampley, John O‘Neill

JOHN ONEILL on
CNN CROSSFIRE with Novack/Carville
Did John Kerry Misrepresent Vietnam Record?
Aired August 12, 2004 - 16:30 ET

Steve Gardner on Hugh Hewitt radio show August 10

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Page2

Interview with Adrian Lonsdale.
Transcript of Charlie Sykes Show on WTMJ 620 Milwaukee, WI
August 10(?), 2004 / Transcribed August 14, 2004

An Interview with Van Odell, a Swift Boat Veteran for Truth August 16, 2004 By Judson Cox

Scarborough Country' On MSNBC August 16, 2004
JOHN ONEILL
John Hurley

JOHN ONEILL
"Special Report With Brit Hume," Aug. 17, 2004,
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page 3

Excerpted, transcribed:
Steve Gardner - Savage Nation, 6 AUG
Ted Peck - David Gold, 15 AUG


WCHS Radio Charleston “LIVE AUDIO” excerpt from CAPT. JACK CHENOWETH’S appearance on METRONEWS affiliate WCHS “58-LIVE” THURSDAY Aug 19

JOHN ONEILL on RUSH LIMBAUGH 8/23/04

Kevin McCullough --- Radio Talk Show
JOHN ONEILL August 24
Listen to stream & MP3s


Steve Gardner & Larry Thurlow Aug. 26, 2004
MSNBC - Deborah Norville Show

Chris Wallace on FoxNews Sunday 8/29/04


Veterans for Truth Rally
In Washington, D.C., Vietnam Veterans hold a Veterans for Truth Rally. 9/12/2004: WASHINGTON, DC (CSpan)

Steve Gardner Interview The Michael Savage show, 8/6/2004

John ONeill interview with David Limbaugh August 21, 2004

Dean Esmay Interviews Van Odell

Dean Esmay interviews George Elliott:

Nightline, 14 OCT 2004, Interview with John O'Neill

The American Enterprise "Live" with TAE John O'Neill
March 2005

MSNBC, Adm. William Schachte , Aug. 27, 2004

Front Page Colonel George "Bud" Day ,November 29, 2005


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page 4

John O'Neill on "Hannity & Colmes," February 28, 2007
_________________
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one of..... We The People

[kate]

Sean Hannity 8/5/04 Radio show
Van O'Dell
Adm.Hoffman
Scott Swett of wintersoldier.com

TRANSCRIPT
[… missed the intro …]

Hannity: Well, thank you all for being with us, by the way, Van … look, you spent three of the four months with John Kerry; what did you see and what did you learn about John Kerry and why are you involved in this effort?

Van O'Dell: Well, John was one of the officers that was prominent because of his presence, so to speak … but I’d like to say that what I learned of him is that he lied about what went on in Vietnam as far as the atrocities that he purported happened. Ah, he also filed false reports about actions we were in, specifically when he earned his Bronze Star and Purple Heart … I was there at that action and during that time, the things that he wrote about were just not true. And I did not find out until years later that he received a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart for that action which he shouldn’t have.

Hannity: uh huh he claims, van, in this … when he got back from Vietnam, he claimed and admitted to committing atrocities … he admitted … he said I committed the same kind of atrocities as thousands of others. Among the other things that he admits to, he violated the Geneva Convention and that he was involved in search and destroy missions and that he burned down villages. Did you ever see any of this when you were with him?

Van O'Dell:Let me make this specific … we were all volunteers, we in the Navy were all volunteers to be in Vietnam, we are patriotic people, we came back and are now productive citizens and have been for years. We did not commit atrocities [spoken with emphasis]. In my twelve months there, I never saw, heard, or read of any atrocities committed by Swift Boat sailors. Uh, and the second part of that, I’d like to say if atrocities occurred as purported by John Kerry, why didn’t he report them while he was a naval officer, that goes against the Geneva Convention …

Hannity: [speaking over Van], I understand that but I mean this is very a serious charge … but er can we just assume then that he committed these atrocities in the one other month that he wasn’t with you?

Adm. Hoffman: Let me break in here

Hannity: Yes sir, Admiral Hoffman

Adm. Hoffman: He accused of that before the Senate in 1971 and he never specified one atrocity at that time and it has been 35 years and to this day John Kerry has not specified …
[weather alert interrupts my recording]

[unk speaker]: ... but very little specifics that can ever be checked so when Naval Investigators went in to find out what had happened, there wasn’t much they could get their hands on. They did discover that a number of the VVAW [Vietnam Veterans Against the War] participants upon whom John Kerry based his testimony were not in the Navy or were not who they said they were and weren’t able to verify any atrocities. John Kerry’s own testimony, his own report, that he had committed atrocities was similarly vague.

Hannity: Yeah, but now there are people apparently in this new book – I haven’t gotten my copy yet, as I understand it there is a copy waiting for me when I get to Fox tonight, of this book Unfit to Serve – they have quotes from other soldiers that, where they were there when he [Kerry] ordered the killing of animals, and this one allegation, they witnessed him killing a teenaged, young Vietnamese boy that was in a loin cloth.

Van O'Dell: That was where he earned his Silver Star. And there’s much controversy about that. And if he did uh, at one point in his writings he said he did the cooty [???] draw and shot him, where you can’t shoot wounded prisoners; if he did that, he’s guilty of war crimes.

Hannity: Well, he admits that he committed war crimes. I mean, we have his own words … I’ll play it for you when we get back. He admits that already …. We know that.

Adm. Hoffman: Well, if he [verbal emphasis] admitted it, he certainly never reported it. Furthermore, did he ever report one of his shipmates, that is his fellow ONC or enlisted men … I recall … I don’t recall, I got a report from one of the former officers that he did witness Kerry beaching his boat one day and, uh, destroying the …
[ weather alert goes off again Of all the times to have a break]

Adm. Hoffman: … has just come out recently.

Hannity: Gentlemen, let me put you on hold here because we gotta take a scheduled break here … but I, too many questions I have, I can’t let you go yet. Roy Hoffman is with us, Rear Admiral, US Navy retired. Uh, he was in charge of John Kerry and the Swift Boat Vet guys. Uh, Van O'Dell is with us; served with John Kerry in Vietnam, he was a Gunners Mate … Scott Swett is a part of the uh, Swift Vets … uh, what is the name of your web site again?

Scott Swett: The name of the site is swiftvets.com. I’m actually the author of another site, wintersoldier.com that focuses

Hannity [talking over]: ok, on that book

Scott Swett: … Kerry’s war crimes

Hannity: hang on one second, we’ll take a break, we’ll come back with all these guys … and of course we gotta ask the question why they decided to come out and talk about their time with John Kerry [segues into station break]

Hannity: ... served with John Kerry in Vietnam, and Scott Swett is with us, he's a webmaster for Swift Boat Vets and, uh, they came out with this ad. Now ... let me play the admission of Kerry, where he admits he committed atrocities and get your reaction to this, guys:

Kerry Audio: ... yes, I committed the same kind of atrocities that thousands of other soldiers have committed, in that: I took part in shootings in free-fire zones; I conducted harassment and interdiction fire; I used 50-caliber machine guns which we were granted, ordered to use; I took part in search and destroy missions, in the burning of villages ...

Hannity: He also admits he violated the Geneva Convention. Uh, Admiral Hoffman, what do you think of what you just heard?

Adm. Hoffman: ... well, I think he's lying. He may have com... what he did himself, that's his business. But when he starts accusing his shipmates, we have in that division he was in, there were 23, uh, officers - there were 25, 2 are now deceased - of those 25, only one supports him to this day.

Hannity: Admiral, you mean one of the 25 Swift Boat guys

Adm. Hoffman: That's correct, his peer ONC's, the officers in charge, the same, uh, same position that he held

Hannity: Only one in twenty five?

Adm. Hoffman: One in 25 ... well, 2 are deceased, so we'll say one in 23.

Hannity: One in 23 ... Van, I mean ... I mean, is it possible - you were serving with him - you never saw him commit an atrocity, you never saw him burn a village.

Van O'Dell: I never, I never saw a village, a friendly village burn. What I saw was, when we found VC hootches full of weapons or contraband, we burned those. But to go into a village or to fire in a village didn't happen. As a matter of fact, there were times that we withheld fire even though we were receiving fire because civilians were in the way. Ah, we weren't going about there willy-nilly; we had missions, specific missions, and we went and carried those out in the highest traditions of the Navy.

Hannity: Alright, let me ask you this, then, because this new book and we're going to have the first interview on this program next week, Unfit For Command, Swift Boat Vets speak about John Kerry with John O'Neill, in this book, in ah, it is claimed that Kerry earned his Silver Star by killing a lone, fleeing teenage VietCong in a loin cloth [garbled] that upon his command, numerous small animals were slaughtered by heavy caliber machine guns, and, uh, that he ran around with a Zippo lighter, burning up an entire innocent village. Is that, er, I mean he admits to doing that, is that the case; were you there for that?

Van O'Dell:I was not there for any of those incidents. I do know that he, he shot the Vietnamese in the loin cloth, who had already been shot by his machine gunner ..

Hannity: Wait a minute, you saw this?

Hannity: Now explain what you heard had happened

Van O'Dell:that, uh, that the young boy had already been, been aiming a rocket at them but the machine gunner had caught him in, in the legs and had shot him up pretty bad. And that Kerry went around and then fired and, and killed him at that point.

Adm. Hoffman[???]: Sean, that probably doesn't qualify as a war crime and I'm not sure anybody is claiming that ...

Hannity [talking over]: yeah, that doesn't sound like one to me ... I would openly admit that but, ah

Scott Swett[?]: Sean, I was, I was involved in helping put the book together, and uh, one, one of the things that it focuses on is, Kerry is trying to blame the atrocities - he's not admitting to atrocities - he's saying that the entire US military structure was systematically committing atrocities ...

Hannity: No, no, no, that's a separate thing, he said, you just heard him in his own voice saying "I commited atrocities" ...

Scott Swett[?]: Yes, "as did thousands of others"

Hannity: Yeah, but he says "I burn villages" so, I'm uh, you know I ...

Scott Swett[?]: "that we were ordered to do"

Hannity: Ok, so

Scott Swett[?]: Its the orders he wants to place the focus on

Hannity:[b] Alright, so, but the point is if he did these things and he violated the Geneva Convention, and he committed atrocities, does he not have a responsibility to say no ... I mean, Admiral? I mean, do you know of any orders to burn villages? ... of innocent people?

[b]Adm. Hoffman: No, of course there were no such orders. It's also worth noting that since Kerry was running around with a film crew all the time that, if he had atrocities to film its astounding that he didn't get any footage of that, instead of just him walking around with a gun.

Hannity: Alright, I got a lot more to get to with you guys, um, and I got to take a break ... we have a hard break coming up here ... and, uh, Van, by the way is a gunners mate, served with Kerry, you're gonna be on TV tonight ... and we got the other side of that debate ... and we're going to show you the latest poll numbers on Hannity & Colmes tonight [segue into break]

[local station late in rejoining show due to weather alerts]

Hannity: ... the left, doesn't want to hear the stories of these other guys. Why can't these men have the right to say what they want to say ... and let people decide for themselves. They, I ...
Roy Hoffman is with us, Rear Admiral, US Navy Retired; Van O'Dell, uh, who served, uh and he will be with us on TV tonight - we're gonna show you the ad - if you haven't seen the actual ad, we're gonna show it to you in full tonight; we didn't show the full ad last night, we're gonna show the full tonight. And Scott Swett is with us, works on the web site for these guys, Swift Boat Vets.

Alright, uh, here's what, I want to ask you, because there's so much to get to here. um, one of the first questions I want to ask you, has any reported from The New York Times, The Washington Post ... gentlemen, prior to now have they interviewed you about your experiences with John Kerry?

Adm. Hoffman: Not until yesterday

Hannity: Who is that, Admiral Hoffman?

Adm. Hoffman: yes

Hannity: How closely, admiral, you, you worked with him from a distance, did you not?

Adm. Hoffman: No, I did not work from him, ah, a distance, I'd like to clarify that. I've heard that; I'm getting sick and tired of hearing it. I operated those boats in close proximity to him many times ...

Hannity: Well, because, you know its been printed otherwise, I have an article here in front of me that says the opposite, so it's important that we clarify that. So you saw John Kerry up close and personal.

Adm. Hoffman: Did I ride on his boat? No. Did I ride on boats that were close to him? Yes.

Hannity: What ... what do you want the American people to know about him?

Adm. Hoffman: I want them to know the truth. And the reason for that is simple. First of all, in 1971 ... but, then when he announces himself for candidacy for the chief officer or, the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces in January of this year ... it set all of us back quite severely; we couldn't believe that this man could possibly be the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces. So I started organizing the group back then, and particularly when his biography by Douglas Brinkley, Tour of Duty ... when that came out, it was so full of, of exaggerations, distortions of fact, and outright lies ... that it's more .. instead of calling it a biography, they should have called it a novel. Because of, er, the one good thing was it gave us something concrete to bite into.

Hannity: Now, you mention that of the 23, what, Officers In Charge of the Swift Boat guys

Adm. Hoffman: That's in his division ...
Hannity:[b] That's in his division ... of the 23 that are still alive, there's only one supporting his candidacy for President ...

[b]Scott Swett: That is correct, that is Skip Barker, who works for his campaign.

Hannity: And Van, I want to go back to, you know, I mean, look, I think you guys know, that, that the beginning of the trashing of you guys has begun. You guys are gonna have your reputations smeared, your characters impugned, your motives are going to be questioned. Alright, Van, you served closely with John Kerry for three of the four months he was there, 75% of his time. you are disputing his record of what happened in Vietnam as are many of your fellow Vietnam Vets. Why did you decide to get involved in this?

Van O'Dell:I'll tell you what, I started to get involved in this when he announced that he was going to be a candidate for President of the United States and be Commander in Chief. Ah, before that it didn't matter. He was in Massachusetts and that was their choice to have him. Right now, ah, I'm a father and a grandfather, and my kids may be in the military ... my grandchildren. And it's important that we have a Commander in Chief that is fit to serve and I decided to get involved with this because I felt, at that time, that I was being called back to service by my Country, to tell the truth about what actually happened in Vietnam with John Kerry. And what happened when he came back and the lies that he told.

Hannity: So specifically a lot of this is rooted in the allegations that he made against his fellow soldiers when he said that his fellow soldiers had told him stories, that they had raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, that his fellow Vietnam Vets cut off limbs, blew up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, raised villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan - that's all, you're saying that is all [verbal emphasis] a lie.

Van O'Dell:That is all a lie [verbal emphasis]. I can tell you I, I served with these guys and they're all honorable people and we even took fire sometimes and didn't fire back because civilians were in the way. We were not out there killing civilians; we were out there on missions. And ..
.
Hannity: yeah

Van O'Dell:and to be lied about that, it just , it just really, really tears at your guts - it's the same type of trashing you were talking about they're gonna do now. He was trashing back then and there was no basis in fact for it because there were no reports ever filed by any officer in that area, of atrocities.

Scott Swett: Sean ...

Hanity: Yes sir

Scott Swett: ... I'd just like to note that Admiral Hoffman and Mr. O'Dell fought under fire in combat conditions - I don't think they're going to be intimidated by name calling from the other side. I'd like to touch real quickly on your earlier point, that the, uh, left appears to be bent on silencing these guys ... I, uh, imagine that you are aware that the Kerry, uh, campaign attorneys have contacted all TV stations and insisted that they not run the ads.

Hannity: Well, I heard that just prior to coming on air today Uh, have you been able to confirm that and get a copy of that letter?

Scott Swett: Uh, I haven't seen the letter but I heard that from several sources. It's also my understanding that the packages that went out to TV stations with the ad contained, are backed 60 pages of sworn statements, contain book excerpts and military records.

Hannity: So what are they trying to intimidate your Vietnam Vets, uh, and by the way, I can tell you right now if anyone threatens them with a lawsuit, I know for a fact that Mark Levin of the Landmark Legal Foundation will race to their defense.

Scott Swett: I'm sure he will; I don't think they're trying to intimidate the Vets so much as they're trying to intimidate the, uh, TV stations

Hannity: TV stations, but in essence they really are tying to go after the vets 'cause they're the ones they don't want their story to be told in this ad. Uh, hm, let me tell you right now ... Van, you're going to be on Hannity & Colmes tonight ... and, immediately following you, you know he has this so-called band of brothers ... Jim Rassmun [sp?] and I've interviewed him before - he's the Vietnam Vet who Kerry claims saved his life [sic - wasn't it the other way around?] and won the Bronze Star. He has a very different story for you. What do you way to him?

Van O'Dell: Well, I'll tell you what, there are a couple of things that I can refute ... if you, you remember at the convention and other places, he said he was in the water alone, that all the fleet had left and zipped down the river. That couldn't have happened because the incident that caused him to fall in the water ... was Kerry's boat taking off at high speed because the 3 boat had been mined; the 3 boat was dead in the water.

Hannity: You mean you were there for this instance?

Van O'Dell: I was there. I was there. I laid down the first cover fire and I quit firing because we weren't receiving any fire.

Hannity: So why is Rassmun saying that Kerry saved his life? But you're saying that it's absolutely false?

Van O'Dell: I have no idea what his motives are

[Adm Hoffman???] [overtalk] Rassmun lied [emphatic]

Van O'Dell:... well he pulled him out of the water, yes he did pull him out of the water, but let me tell you something, Sean, there were three other people in the water that day. Our boat picked up two of them, Larry Furlow's [sp?] 51 boat picked up the other one.

Hannity: yeah

Van O'Dell: There ... and nobody received medals for that because that was the job that we did. But we were not under intense fire - another lie. 5000 meters of fire along that river? That's longer than Seminary Ridge along Gettysburg. We couldn't have survived 5000 meters of small-arms fire; we would all be dead in those unarmored boats and we ... [cross talk] no return fire.

Hannity: Let me ask you both this question, The New York Times, and I think Joe Conason was one of them, uh, I got a report from somebody today , uh, I'm not surprised but I haven't seen the article yet, but they're suggesting, the New York Times in particular, that you guys are motivated by, by politics and they point to this Texas Republican ... who contributed to your web site and commercial ... are all of you involved in this web site, this commercial, are you guys all Republicans, is there any politics to play here?

Adm. Hoffman [over the others]: Absolutely not [emphatic] We have stated from the very beginning that ... we are not connected with the Republican party, the Democratic Party, or independent Party in any way whatsoever.

Hannity: yeah

Adm. Hoffman: yes, we do get contributions from $25 to $100,000

Hannity: just so people?? Of course the pro-Kerry groups are funded by George Soros and no one seems to suggest that, uh, this taints the left's motives and if I were you, I would be offended that these people would suggest that your integrity and honesty can be bought. Uh, you know what's amazing to me is you look at the numbers, your numbers are staggering. And this is what I'd urge people to pay attention to, if only one of the 23 officers of the Swift Boats only one supports Kerry and the rest are against him. Well, that does that, I mean there's something there there.

Adm. Hoffman: Not only that but there's only one officer or enlisted man of the 3,600 men that I had under my command, that includes the aviation and Coast Guard, only one bugged out in 4 months: John Kerry [emphatically].

Hannity: What do you mean, tell me what you mean, oh, you mean that left after a short time in the service.

Adm. Hoffman: After he, that third purple heart which you've just been talking about, the Bronze Star, which was bogus all the way, that was his ticket out of there, that's what he had been planning all the way.

Hannity: Explain that for our audience - you're saying that his Purple Hearts were not earned.

Adm. Hoffman: That is correct

Hannity: Explain that to, to people that don't know what you're talking about.

Adm. Hoffman: Alright ... I think that Van O'Dell told you that there was one explosion - a controlled mine under PCF3. No other boats were damaged. There was only ONE explosion [verbal emphasis]. Kerry breaks out of the fire zone and goes downstream. He's the only one that left the scene, the rest of them are trying to save the boat number 3 and pick the men up out of the water and so forth. Kerry didn't come back until he was sure there wasn't any shore fire - and there wasn't, there never was any shore fire.

Adm. Hoffman: Now ... in his own report he said that he had a minor contusion on his right arm and he had shrapnel in his butt. Now ... when, an underwater mine does not have any shrapnel. So, where did the shrapnel come from? I'll tell you where it came from. Before that operation when he was up the river, he and Rassmun tossed a concussion grenade into a sampan with loaded rice [sic]. He didn't duck fast enough and he got some of the rice up his rear end. And that was the wound that he had. But he made his after-action report, he reported that as shrapnel and that is an outright ...

[weather alert interruption"]

Hannity: ... it, hang on one second, guys, we'll come back for one final segment and I promise we'll let you go. Now, Van O'Dell served with Kerry and Roy Hoffman, both who served with Kerry in Vietnam ... very different stories to tell ... we're going to show you this ad on TV on Hannity & Colmes, Van O'Dell is going to be on ... and this other guy Jim Rassmun, he's the one guy that takes Kerry's side in this, he's going to be on, we'll have both sides [segues into break]

[joining late, sorry]

Adm. Hoffman: ... comments in one way or the other, that were favorable - they would consider it, because- they said consider, he didn't say he was going to do it - because they were going to issue a new paperback edition of the book [ed. Kerry's bio?]. And, at that time he said it was going to be done in two weeks but I've never seen it.

Hannity: Yeah Ah, what do you think the purpose for that call was?

Adm. Hoffman: Well, I think he was .. that wasn't the first time he called me, he called me long before he announced his candidacy and trying to feel me out to where I might be, he was probably getting me, trying to get me to back off or even join his team.

Hannity: Yeah, but that's not going to happen. Now, is, of the 23 guys, is the one that is only for him, is that Rassmun?

Scott Swett: No that's Skip Barker [sp?]

Hannity: Skip Barker

Adm. Hoffman: Skip Barker was another ONC. He lives [lived?] down in Selma, Alabama.

Hannity: But when we say 23, we're talking about the officers, correct?

Adm. Hoffman: Yeah, yes, the officers in charge of the boats.

Hannity: So these other guys that are supporting him are just what, some of the enlisted guys?

[multiple voices]: yes

Adm. Hoffman: yes, they were his actual crew members ...

Hannity: OK

Adm. Hoffman: ... they were all there at the same time. I think they probably the longest any one of them served with him was the last two months.

Hannity: Alright, Admiral Hoffman, thank you for being with us, I'm sure talk in the future. Van O'Dell, we'll see you on Hannity & Colmes tonight, we're going to show this ad tonight, also my exclusive interview with Gov. Weld on tonight, and Scott, thank you and ... what's the website? quick! quick!

Scott Swett: www.swiftvets.com

Hannity: when we come back we're gonna get your reaction [segue]
TRANSCRIPT ENDS
_________________
.
one of..... We The People

[kate]

Kevin McCullough
WMCA 570 Radio

> Thomas Wright interview, partial transcript

Kerry was asked to leave Vietnam
Posted: August 6, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern
© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com

The image Americans were asked to believe, at the Democratic National Convention, of a John Kerry who "defended this nation" as a soldier in Vietnam and "will defend this nation" as its commander in chief has hit a snag.

The soldiers he served alongside of don't really believe that he did defend his country very well. And as one of his former commanding officers told my radio show on Wednesday, Kerry's chain of command was so fed up with his actions, they asked him to go home after he received his third purple heart.

Retired U.S. Navy officer Thomas Wright served our nation for 21 years. He also served as one of Kerry's superiors in the tough assignment of SWIFT boat (Shallow Water Inshore Fast Tactical) patrols on the southern tip of Vietnam. Lt. Wright frequently experienced trouble with Kerry.

According to Wright, Kerry frequently broke protocols of engagement for SWIFT boat commanders.

When you're in a group (of boats on patrol) you don't open fire unless the person in charge tells you to or unless you are defending yourself from an immediate attack ... I'd have problems because we'd be running on a river and Kerry would see something off in the distance and he'd take a pot-shot at it, to see what happened. And that wasn't the way we were trying to run the patrols.

We were trying to get in and find out what was going on, and hopefully make contact and work with some of the people that lived there ... And you don't get to go shake their hands when you're shooting at them.

I asked Wright how Kerry would respond to the necessary correction that would follow such unilateral actions.

Well, during the mission you just continue to issue the orders that you expect people to follow and, if they don't do them, you would continue to press until you got the results that you need.

After a mission, is generally when you work out the more difficult problems. And those are done in private.

I'd go talk to John Kerry and I'd tell him that I was unhappy with his opening fire, or pulling out of a column when he wasn't supposed to, or failing to communicate when he needed to ... And I'd always get an excuse. I wouldn't get a direct answer.

I'd get "I didn't hear that," or "We thought we saw something" or "My radio was on the other side of the boat" or "I didn't have time." It was always an excuse. After three or four times ... I went to the division commander, told him about the problems I [had] been having and told him [the commander] that he needed to take steps to correct it.

That brought me to the shocker of the interview. To hear John Kerry speak about his time in Vietnam is to hear a self-personified story of heroics. Lt. Wright remembers what happened after Kerry's third purple heart quite differently.

When he got his third purple heart, that evening, and we didn't particularly care what it was for, we knew that he had three. That evening, I and two other people went in and told him that we felt that he should go home. It was something that he could do ... He told us that he didn't want that, it was his intention to serve his country, and the next morning he was gone. And we were happy and didn't worry about it.

John Kerry was barely able to endure four months on SWIFT boat detail. Since I am sure the War on Terror will endure a bit longer than that, the idea of him commanding our troops with his unsteady hand is making me ... well ... seasick.

>Listen to a narrated portion of the interview here...

http://www.wintersoldier.com/audio/Wright.wma

[kate]

CNN Aired August 5, 2004 - 15:30 ET
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/05/ip.01.html
Judy Woodruff with
Larry Thurlow swiftvets
Jim Rassmann Kerry supporter

WOODRUFF: We've been reporting on the debate between Vietnam veterans for and against John Kerry. With me now, two central figures in this debate. Larry Thurlow, he's with me here in Washington. Like John Kerry, he commanded a swift boat in Vietnam. He appears in that anti-Kerry television ad that we showed you a little earlier.

In Eugene, Oregon, is Jim Rassmann. He served under John Kerry's command and he credits Kerry with saving his life. Rassmann, you may remember, spoke at last week's Democratic convention.

Larry Thurlow, I want to -- I want to begin with you. You essentially, as I understand it, you, too, won a Bronze Star, like John Kerry did. The incident in which John Kerry pulled Jim Rassmann out of -- out of the river...

LARRY THURLOW,[ APPEARS IN ANTI-KERRY AD] Yes?
WOODRUFF: ... in Vietnam, Kerry says that this happened under enemy fire, that Rassmann had been knocked in the water, he went back and was the first to get to Rassmann and pulled him out of the water. You essentially said that's not what happened. What are you saying?

THURLOW: My recollection of that day is still pretty vivid after all these years. And what I remember, Judy, is that the incident involving Mr. Rassmann, five boats had come out of the river after running an operation up in the canal earlier that day. Three boats were going through a fishing weir on the left side of the river that had put in place between the time we entered and when we were leaving.

I'm the third boat in that column left. In the column right, there are two boats. The lead boat is John Kerry's.

He's going through a rather small opening on the right bank that (ph) had been left in his boat. The boat leading our column, as it goes through that small opening almost simultaneously, is blasted completely out of the water by a command detonated mine.

WOODRUFF: This is another boat?

THURLOW: This is a 3-boat (ph) -- this is on the opposite side of the river of John Kerry's boat. At this point, John Kerry speeds out of the area, I assume to clear the kill zone. The rest of the boats, however, went to the aid of the 3-boat (ph), which was completely disabled. Two members of that crew are in the water, the rest are badly wounded and basically incapacitated on board that boat.

WOODRUFF: You're basically saying he fled when there was...

(CROSSTALK)

THURLOW: I am saying he fled the area on the explosion under the 3-boat (ph).

WOODRUFF: All right. Well, before -- and let me ask Jim Rassmann about that part of the story before we ask what happened to him.

Jim Rassmann, what -- what do you say happened that day in March, 1969?

JIM RASSMANN [ KERRY SUPPORTER] Well, first, I was not part of John Kerry's command. I was a Special Forces officer who happened to be on his boat at that time.

Mr. Thurlow's recollection of what occurred is not accurate. We had the boat hit the mine to our left. And John immediately had his driver, Del Sandusky (ph), turn to the left and head towards it.

And it was at that time that our gunner on the bow got his gun knocked out and he started screaming for another weapon. I ran another weapon up to me, and we hit something or something hit us. There was an explosion, and I was blown off the boat to the right.

WOODRUFF: And you ended up in the water how?

RASSMANN: I was blown into the water, and I had boats coming up behind me. So, I went to the bottom of the river.

WOODRUFF: Now, as I understand it, Larry Thurlow, you have a different version of how Jim Rassmann was in the water.

THURLOW: Yes, I do. My thought is that since no mine was detected on the other side of the river, no blast was seen, no noise heard, there's two things that are inconsistent with my memory.

Our boats immediately put automatic weapons fire on to the left bank just in case there was an ambush in conjunction with the mine. It soon became apparent there was no ambush.

The rescue efforts began on the 3-boat (ph). And at this time, the second boat in line, mine being the third boat on the left bank, began to do this.

Now, two members in this boat, keep in mind, are in the river at that time. They're picked up. The boat that picks them up starts toward Lieutenant Rassmann at this time, that's the 23-boat (ph). But before they get there, John does return and pick him up. But I distinctly remember we were under no fire from either bank.

WOODRUFF: Jim Rassmann, what about that? You hear Mr. Thurlow saying there was no enemy fire at that point.

RASSMANN: Mr. Thurlow is being disingenuous. I don't know what his motivation is, but I was receiving fire in the water every time I came up for air. I don't recall anybody being in the area around us until I came up maybe five or six times for air and Kerry came back to pick me up out of the water.

WOODRUFF: Disingenuous. He says you are being disingenuous in not recalling what happened.

THURLOW: Let me ask Mr. Rassmann this question: I also ended up in the water that day during the rescue efforts on the 3-boat (ph). And my boat, the 51-boat (ph), came up, picked me up, business as usual. I got back on board, went about the business at hand.

I received no fire. But the thing I would like to ask is, we have five boats now, John's returning, and four boats basically dead in the water, working on the 3-boat (ph). If we were receiving fire off the bank, how come not one single boat received one bullet hole, nobody was hit, no sign of any rounds hitting the water while I was in it?

WOODRUFF: What about that, Jim Rassmann, quickly?

RASSMANN: There were definitely rounds hitting the water around me. If Mr. Thurlow feels that what his story is purported to be was the case, he had ample opportunity 35 years ago to deal with it. He never did, nor did anyone else. John Kerry did not tell this story. I told this story when I put him in for a Silver Star for coming back to rescue me. The Navy saw fit to reduce it to a Bronze Star for valor.

That's OK with me. But If Mr. Furlow had a problem with that, he should have dealt with it long, long ago. To bring it up now, I think, is very disingenuous. I think that this is partisan motivation on his part and for the part of his whole organization.

WOODRUFF: Mr. Thurlow, why didn't you bring this up earlier?

THURLOW: For one thing, I did not know that John had been put in for a Bronze Star, a Silver Star or, for that matter, a Purple Heart on that day. I did not see the after-action report, which, in fact, was written by John. And as the years went by, John was not running for the highest office in the free world.

WOODRUFF: What about Mr. Rassmann's point that he thinks you're doing this for partisan purposes?

THURLOW: Well, this is not true because, the fact of the matter is, I have not been active in any political party since I got out of the service. In fact, I basically turned my back on politics because of my experience in the service.

WOODRUFF: But this -- you feel strongly enough about this to be out?

THURLOW: I certainly do. My point is, is that John Kerry, because of the actions he's taken, and then the fantastic stories he made up about this, when many people beside myself know this not to be true, negates him being the leader he claims to be. And I would hate to have him be the commander-in-chief over my grandchildren.

WOODRUFF: Jim Rassmann, you want to respond to that?

RASSMANN: I sure do. I have two wonderful kids. They're very bright, they're compassionate people. I'm here today not just because John Kerry pulled me out of that water. I'm here today because if those two kids of mine were in the military, I would want John Kerry to be the commander-in-chief, not George Bush.

I think that Mr. Thurlow has a very unusual recollection of the events. I think that it's important to note that even today John McCain has come out and called this ad that they have produced dishonest and dishonorable. And I think I would have to agree with him.

WOODRUFF: Well, gentlemen, we are going to have to leave it there. Mr. Jim Rassmann, we thank you for joining us from Eugene, Oregon.

Larry Thurlow, we thank you for joining us here in Washington. We know you're from Kansas. We appreciate it.

And I have a sense we're going to continue to hear more about this story in the days and the weeks to come. Gentlemen, thank you very much.

THURLOW: You're welcome.

WOODRUFF: We appreciate it.

[kate]

National Review online -Jim Geraghty reporting
LEWIS LETSON EXPLAINS KERRY'S WOUND [08/06 03:33 PM]
Lewis Letson, who discusses Kerry’s wound in the Swift Boat Vets’ ad, is appearing on NRANews.com with me:

“I am the doctor [who treated Kerry],” he said.

“Let me explain that. My critics are pointing to the [signature on the medical record], J.C. Carreon. If they look it carefully a scribble after the words, saying, “HM1.” HM1 is a hospital man first class. Jesus C. Carreon was one of my medics at that naval base. He was a top-notch fella. Real prince of a fella.”

“Unfortunately, my friend Carreon died about 1992. He’s not around to back this up,” he said.

“Kerry might have thought my name was J.C. Carreon. I was the only medical officer at that base. September 68 to Sept. 1969. I can verify that with commanding officer.”

“I didn’t want to be a public figure. This has its downside, don’t have any desire to be notorious. This has some ill effects on an individual and my family. I had TV crew on my front lawn in the last hour, they just appeared at my house and rang my doorbell.”

“It’s unfortunate that it’s come to a lot of name calling. I’ve been called a Republican shill. I’ll stand by what I have said. They can call me what they want. I’ll stack my record of integrity against theirs anytime.”


Having concluded the interview, one gets the feeling that the Kerry campaign better have a better defense than, "he's not Kerry's doctor, because didn't sign the report, another guy did." It shouldn't be hard to verify that Letson was the doctor in that location at that time.
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one of..... We The People

[kate]

"Hannity & Colmes,"
Sean Hannity & Susan Estrich
Van ODell, Swiftie
Jim Rassmann, Kerry supporter

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,128269,00.html
Ad Questions John Kerry's Duty in Vietnam
Friday, August 06, 2004

This is a partial transcript from "Hannity & Colmes," August 5, 2004, that has been edited [by fox]for clarity.

SEAN HANNITY, CO-HOST: First, our top story tonight, the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (search), they have launched a new television ad criticizing Kerry's record in Vietnam. The ad, well, it's going to run in Wisconsin and Ohio and West Virginia, and USA Today has called it one of the harshest ads of the campaign. Let's take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D-NC), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You have any question about what John Kerry is made up, just spend three minutes with the men that served with him 30 years ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I served with John Kerry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I served with John Kerry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is lying about his record.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. I know. I was there. I saw what happened.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry has not been honest.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he lacks the capacity to lead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry is no war hero.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He dishonored his country. He most certainly did.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I served with John Kerry. John Kerry cannot be trusted.
ANNOUNCER: Swift Boat Veterans for Truth is responsible for the content of this advertisement.
(END VIDEOTAPE)

HANNITY: We're going to get reaction from a veteran who is supporting Senator Kerry about that in just a few minutes.
First we're joined by one of the members of the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, Van Odell, who also served on a swift boat at the exact same time that John Kerry did.
Van, we have limited time. I want to get to a lot of facts here. You were there with John Kerry for three of the four months that he was there, correct?

VAN ODELL, SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH: That's correct. I was there from January through March the 19th, when he left.

HANNITY: And you served in close proximity to him. You saw him often.

ODELL: I served in very close proximity. We did operations on boats, usually three or four boats, up to seven boats at a time, lived on the same barracks ship he did. And I was — was involved with him throughout the time that he was there in Coastal Division 11.

HANNITY: All right. Because there's this letter that has been sent out by — by lawyers for the DNC and the Kerry campaign, saying the advertisement contains statements by people who purport to have served on Kerry's swift boat in Vietnam. But a lot of these boats were in close proximity. You were there. You saw him often, correct?

ODELL: I saw him often. And all the statements in that advertisement are true.

HANNITY: Yes. Now Senator Kerry back in 1971 before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee admitted that he had committed atrocities. He admitted that he had burned down villages and violated the Geneva Conventions. Did you ever see any such thing?

ODELL: I didn't see any such thing at all. As a matter of fact, I can tell you the people that served on swift boats were honorable people and did not commit atrocities.

HANNITY: He said, "I committed" — He said, "I committed the same kinds of atrocities of thousands of others." And among other things that he admitted was burning down villages. What he said himself. I have the tape.

ODELL: I realize he said that himself, and he'll have to stand by that. I didn't see that, and I didn't see that by any other swift boat sailors.

HANNITY: All right. Now...

ODELL: The atrocities that he...

HANNITY: Go ahead.

ODELL: The atrocities that he lied about in front of the Senate didn't happen. None of the swift boat sailors that were there, and I was there 12 months. I didn't see or hear or read of any atrocities committed by swift boat sailors at all
.
HANNITY: We're about to be joined by one of the veterans there that worked with Kerry, and is going to say that he saved his life.
Were you there? Is this a true story? Are we going to have conflicting stories here with Mr. Rassman and what you saw?

ODELL: I was there. I was not only there; I was at the top of the swift boat. I had 14 foot above the waterline at the very top mount. I was able to see everything that happened.
John Kerry did pick Rassman out of the water. But it wasn't under the circumstances that they both talk about.

HANNITY: So Mr. Rassman who we're going to interview in a second, you're accusing him of lying?

ODELL: He's not telling the story the way it actually happened, no.

HANNITY: Tell us what happened, in your — in your view.

ODELL: What happened was the three-boat was blown up with a mine. A very good friend of mine, Bernard Wolf was the gunner's mate on the three- boat. The three-boat was blown up as we went past a fishing weir ...
We were directly behind the three-boat on the 23-boat. And my officer, Lieutenant J.G. Chenoweth (search), went forward and picked up two guys that were in the water.
Now, Kerry won this Bronze Star because he picked someone up out of the water. That day four people went in the water.

SUSAN ESTRICH, GUEST CO-HOST: I have to interrupt you for one second. I think...

ODELL: Another boat...

ESTRICH: Sir — Sir, I think it's my turn to ask you a few questions. You weren't a crew mate of Senator Kerry's, were you?

ODELL: I was not.

ESTRICH: You were not a crewmate of his. Right. All of the men on his boat are supporting his bid for the presidency, aren't they?

ODELL: No, that's not true.

ESTRICH: One is deceased, but all the rest are..
.
ODELL: Steve Gardner is not supporting him at all.

ESTRICH: But as I understand it all of the men on his boat...

ODELL: When I was in Vietnam — when I was in Vietnam, the people there on his boat crew did not have the same take on what he is like now.

ESTRICH: So all but one who were on his boat are supporting him. Is that right? And you weren't on his boat. Is that right?

ODELL: I was in close proximity. I was right behind his boat.

ESTRICH: You were half a football field away; is that right?

ODELL: Oh, no, it's closer than that. Sometimes we laid alongside many times. We were close together.

ESTRICH: But you weren't on the boat, correct? All of the people in your ad...

ODELL: I'll say it again, I was not on his boat. Right.

ESTRICH: And were any of the people in your ad on the boat?

ODELL: Most of the people in our ad were in close proximity in the same division and were right around with him.

ESTRICH: OK.

ODELL: He wasn't — he wasn't encapsulated in a boat and kept separate from all the rest of us. He was around us all the time.

ESTRICH: The doctor — but the doctor in your ad who said he treated him, did he not in fact sign the medical treatment report, did he?

ODELL: He signed the medical treatment report that he pulled a small piece, fragment out of his arm, yes.

ESTRICH: But he didn't sign Senator Kerry's treatment report, did he?

ODELL: Not that I'm aware of, no.

ESTRICH: Right, he did not. And who financed this ad? Did you pay for it yourself?

ODELL: I have put quite a bit of my own money in expenses. Yes.

ESTRICH: But did you...

ODELL: No, I did not pay for the ad.

ESTRICH: Who did pay for the ad, sir?

ODELL: We did. Swift Boat Veterans for Truth paid for the ad.

ESTRICH: Well, I think the ad cost about $158,000 and according to my notes, $100,000 came from a Texan Republican, a big Bush supporter, Mr. Perry. Are you familiar with him?

ODELL: Yes, I bought one of his houses.

ESTRICH: Bought one of his houses. And he's a major...

ODELL: Years ago.

ESTRICH: ... Bush supporter, yes.
If Mr. Bush himself asked you to stop running this ad, would you?

ODELL: No, we're not affiliated with the Republican Party. We are a completely separate group. We accept money from anyone under the provision. This is our message.

ESTRICH: But if they were to ask you...

ODELL: And if they asked us not to do it we would still put it out because it's our contention to put out the truth about what happened.
We're not affiliated with the Republican Party or the Democratic Party or Republican Party or anyone else. This is a separate group and don't take direction from any of them.

ESTRICH: So if the president said to you this is — if the president said to you, as John McCain has said, that this is one of the harshest tricks he's ever seen, that this is, in some people's words, a dirty trick, you would simply ignore the president and keep doing it anyway.

ODELL: We are a private group and we would keep doing it anyway. Yes, that's true.

HANNITY: Van, thank you for serving your country. Thank you for all you do. Appreciate your being with us.

ESTRICH: Sorry to see you doing this.
Our next guest, unlike our last guest, actually served with John Kerry in Vietnam and says that Kerry saved his life.
Joining us now is Vietnam veteran Jim Rassman.
Jim, our last guest, Van Odell, I think is his name, who didn't serve with John Kerry on the crew boat says you are a liar. Is that true?

JIM RASSMAN, SERVED WITH JOHN KERRY: No, it's not. He couldn't quite bring himself to directly call me a liar.

ESTRICH: It was close. It was close, wasn't it?

RASSMAN: It was close. It's a shame. You know, this happened a long time ago. People's recollections fade.
But the bottom line is, I submitted John Kerry for the Silver Star, because he pulled me out of the water under fire. Mr. Odell doesn't remember it that way. I think he's wrong. I think he has partisan motives, that will have to be explored by other people. What is disappointing is that Mr. Odell, Roy Hoffman, Admiral Hoffman, John Kerry and all of those men in the Navy that served on the swift boats served admirably. They were very courageous. They were in a very difficult situation, and they all did well.
I'm a little upset that, in addition to calling me a liar, these people are now calling the United States Navy a liar. All of these decorations are vetted at every link in the chain of command. The time to have questioned this request for a medal was 35-years-ago, not now.
I think the timing is very suspicious. I find it a little upsetting, but I can live with it. What I do have great difficulty with is that I have heard that on the Web site that the swift boat veterans operate, they have referred to the my ... Chinese soldiers as assassins. I take great offense to that. I think whoever wrote that should retract it.
Those men are mostly dead. They're not here to defend themselves, and I'd love to defend them.

ESTRICH: Mr. Rassman, can I ask you a question? You're not a Democrat, are you?

RASSMAN: I turned Democrat in January. Previous to that, I had been a Republican for 33, 35 years. I didn't always vote Republican. But much of the time, I did.

HANNITY: I noticed that Senator McCain, who was himself a former prisoner of war called this dishonest and dishonorable.
Why are these guys doing this?
Why are they reopening these wounds, in your view?

RASSMAN: You have to talk to them directly about that. I suspect it has strictly partisan motives, but I'm not an investigative reporter.

HANNITY: Mr. Rassman, welcome back. Sean Hannity here.
I think these guys earned the right to give their recollections, having they served — they having their country, just as you have the right to tell your story. And I think the American people are going to have to vet this out. I wasn't there. I don't know if what you're saying is true or what he's saying is true. That's why we have both of you on, so our audience can decide.
But we do know that a lot of these guys served with John Kerry and served closely with him in Vietnam. And John Kerry himself brought some of these other guys, the swift boat guys, Elliot and Lonsdale, for example, to campaign for him. Now they've — now they're against him, but in 96. You're upset that they're calling the U.S. Navy liars, you said, and the use of the word assassin. Well, John Kerry when he got back before the Senate committee, accused hits fellow Vietnam vets of being rapists, people that cut off heads and limbs and taped wires from portable telephones to genitals, turned on the power, cut off limbs and blew up bodies and razed villages.
He himself admits he violated the Geneva Convention and, quote — and by the way, I misspoke earlier. I said the Senate Committee when he was and he said he admitted he committed atrocities and burned villages and violated the Geneva Convention. Does that bother you?

RASSMAN: No. From my own experience I know some of these things occurred. I never saw any of the swift boat people do it. I did have a problem with the idea of a free fire zone and shooting at any fisherman who ran about in sampan in the free fire zone. Beyond that, I never witnessed anything.

HANNITY: Well, Mr. Rassman, I'm just going to say I appreciate you serving your country and John Kerry for that extent, too. But I do have concerns, and I mean this sincerely.
And I wrote in my first book how I praise Kerry for this service to this country, even though he disagreed with the war. I have concerns about his attacks against his fellow soldiers. I have concerns that he admitted he committed atrocities. In this new book that is coming out, and I am told and I just got a copy earlier today, that he shot and killed a teenage Viet Cong. He admits he burned down villages.
Should we not vet these things through and find out what the truth is, let all sides be heard and let the American people decide?
Shouldn't we try to get to the truth?

RASSMAN: I think so but I think the time is long past to have done that. I think the timing now is suspicious.

HANNITY: Maybe the timing is, but he never ran for president before. And he admitted he committed atrocities. Those are his words, Susan. He said it. "I committed the same kinds of atrocities." Those are his words. I'm concerned about that. I think we have a right to vet this out now. I am more concerned, I've got to tell you politically, with his record on defense issues after he got out of Vietnam. I'm concerned that he was on the wrong side of history in the Cold War and wanted a nuclear freeze when Reagan was winning the war. I'm concerned about the Kerry amendment that would have cut $7 million from our intelligence community after the first Trade Center attack. I'm more concerned about his votes cutting major weapons systems.
But I think we out to — I think for the benefit of our country, we ought to go through this and let the American people hear all sides. Is that fair?

RASSMAN: The American people certainly will be the final arbiters of this and that's as it should be.

ESTRICH: I would like to thank Mr. Rassman, who I would point out did serve on the swift boat with Mr. Kerry unlike our previous guest. Thank you for being here and for your service to our country.
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one of..... We The People

[kate]

http://kmclive.com/
Kevin McCullough
Radio Talk Show
SWIFTVET AUDIO IS FINALLY HERE.
DUE TO THE OVERWHELMING DEMAND FOR:
The John Kerry SwiftVet Audio is finally hosted and available for your listening right here on the page

>>>Center of Page
KERRY'S COMMANDING OFFICER SOUNDS OFF:
Kerry commanding officer, Captain Adrian Lonsdale will weigh in on
Kerry's "Christmas in Cambodia"
>starts several minutes into the clip
http://boss.streamos.com/real-live/swn/5724/16_swn-16_kmc_0204_040210.smi


>>>Right Side Bar

SWIFTVET AUDIO IS HERE!

**JUST ADDED***
"Kerry was asked to leave Vietnam!" In his own words...
John Kerry's commanding officer eventually had to ask Kerry to leave Vietnam.
http://web.archive.org/web/20051027071951/http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/WEBLOG/kmc/Kerrywasaskedtoleave.wma
Isolated quotes from previous interview [ posted above]
Thomas Wright


**JUST ADDED***
"Kerry's Purple Heart Doc!" In his own words...
John Kerry's "Purple Heart Doc" describes the "injury" Kerry suffered in
order to qualify for it.
http://media.salemwebnetwork.com/WEBLOG/kmc/KerrysPurpleHeartDoc.wma
Dr.Lewis Letson


I tried to capture the audios, if they dont work, pick them up off the main web page

update 9/18 : captures are still on website, worked best for me when I copy/pasted the url in my player - windows media
_________________
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one of..... We The People

[kate]

http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/11/wbr.00.html
CNN WOLF BLITZER REPORTS
Aired August 11, 2004 - 17:00 ET
With……….. JOHN ONEILL
ADMIRAL WILLIAM CROWE

BLITZER:
A harsh critic of John Kerry's Vietnam war record is out with a brand new book entitle "Unfit For Command." Author John O'Neill is a Texas lawyer and a Vietnam veteran. Joining us now with more on O'Neill and his controversial book, CNN's Brian Todd -- Brian.

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, this is a very emotional personal story between men who fought in one of America's most divisive wars. And it's by no means coincidental that this story is heating up to fever pitch right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TODD (voice-over): In his final sprint toward a life's ambition, John Kerry puts his wartime past front and center.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I know what kids go through when they're carrying an M-16 in a dangerous place and they can't tell friend from foe.

TODD: But as the campaign enters a heated stretch, Kerry's war record is becoming an increasingly bitter flashpoint.

The new book "Unfit For Command" by John O'Neill seeks to discredit virtually every wartime citation Kerry received, a case O'Neill has been making for years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why are we coming forward? Because we were there. We know the truth and we know that this guy is unfit to be commander-in-chief.

TODD: O'Neill is a fellow Vietnam veteran who took command of Kerry's patrol boat after Kerry left and never served with Kerry. To back his claims in the book, O'Neill quotes superior officers, some of whom originally backed Kerry and people who served near Kerry but not on his boat.

About a dozen veterans who did serve on Kerry's boat have lined up to support him. O'Neill asserts that each of Kerry's three Purple Hearts came from self-inflicted or exaggerated wounds.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's impossible 35 years later for these guys to go back and rewrite history. If you go back and look at the citations, look at the award recommendations, look at the fitness reports that were written on John Kerry in real time, they say John Kerry's service in Vietnam was heroic.

TODD: O'Neill strongly disputes Kerry's biographical claims of many incidents in Vietnam including one involving a central figure in the campaign.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've witnessed his bravery and leadership under fire and I know he will make a great commander-in-chief.

TODD: Jim Rassman, official records say, was pulled from a river by a wounded John Kerry on March 13, 1969 as U.S. patrol boats took fire from both banks. Kerry's Bronze Star citation from that incident says Kerry was wounded in the arm from a mine that had exploded near his boat. But O'Neill claims that Kerry wounded himself earlier in the day by mishandling a grenade and in the book O'Neill writes, "in reality, Kerry's boat was on right side of the river when a mine went off on the opposite side." He continues, "there was no other hostile fire." And, quote, "despite the absence of hostile fire, Kerry fled the scene."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is suspicious, it is dishonest, it is based on politics, it is not based on what happened in Vietnam.

TODD: O'Neill acknowledges that Kerry picked up Rassman but later Rassman says he does remember taking fire. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All these rounds came in and John ran up and dropped down on his hands and knees and pulled me over. Had he not come out on that bow, I'd be dead.

TODD: O'Neill's book follows the release of an ad by the group Swift Vote Veterans For Truth. O'Neill serves on the steering committee. Those who appear in the ad also are quoted in the book.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star. I know, I was there, I saw what happened.

TODD: The ad was partially bankrolled by a Texas Republican with ties to Bush aide Karl Rove. The Kerry campaign says none of the veterans in the ad served on Kerry's boat.

Former P.O.W. and Republican Senator John McCain even while campaigning for President Bush, defended John Kerry, telling the Associated Press, quote, "I think the ad is dishonest and dishonorable." McCain called on the Bush campaign to condemn the ad. Last Friday, White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan said, quote, "we have not and we will not question Senator Kerry's service in Vietnam."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TODD: We spoke to an official at the Bush/Cheney campaign this afternoon. He said the campaign would not condemn that particular ad any more than they would others that are produced with so-called soft money. He said they do deploy the use of unregulated money to produce these commercials and the official added, quote, "I've not seen John Kerry condemn any of the ads against President Bush" -- Wolf.

BLITZER: Brian Todd, thanks very much for that report. And joining us now with more on this sensitive subject, John O'Neill. He's in New York, he's the author of this new book and retired U.S. Navy admiral, the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, Admiral William Crowe. Thanks to both of you for joining us.

John O'Neill, if all of these guys, virtually everyone who served on that Swift boat together with John Kerry and so many of them were at the Democratic convention attesting to his heroics, if they say he did what they believed why should they believe you when you weren't there on his boat or any of the other individuals who you quote in your book?

JOHN O'NEILL, AUTHOR, "UNFIT FOR COMMAND": Wolf, unlike Admiral Crowe, the people in our organization have no partisan tie, we didn't campaign in the last four elections for Democrats. By and large we didn't campaign for anybody, but we were there. There are 254 Swift Boat people who have signed our letter at Swiftvets.com, including 60 Purple Heart winners, for example, and include 17 of the 23 officers who served alongside John Kerry in Antoy. These were in boats literally five and ten yard away. These were people that bond together every night.

BLITZER: Let me interrupt you, John. But were any of them, was one of them on the boat with John Kerry?

O'NEILL: Yes, as a matter of fact, Steve Gardener (ph) who is the guy that broke the story that Kerry lied about Christmas in Cambodia. Steve Gardener was on his boat for the longest time of any enlisted man and he has signed our letter. He's the guy who came forward to demonstrate that Kerry's story that he had been illegally in Cambodia over Christmas Eve was a total falsehood.

BLITZER: All right. Well, let me then ask you this, there's one person that you say served with him on that boat, but there are at least a dozen others who say he was a hero, a commander and they support him. It's 12 against 1.

O'NEILL: Not quite, Wolf. It's 254 against 12. Every single commander of John Kerry in Vietnam has signed our letter condemning him. Almost 17 of the 23 officers that served with him -- these boats operated in convoys of two to six boats, they were yards apart.

In the scene you just showed, for example, Kerry's ad showed all of the boats fleeing and then Kerry coming back. But all of the boats didn't flee Wolf, they couldn't. The three boat had been blown up, it had no screws left. Everybody went to save the three boat and Kerry fled.

BLITZER: Let's let Admiral Crowe respond. Admiral Crow, you served in Vietnam. You're a former Navy Admiral, retired chairman of the joint chiefs of staff. You are a supporter, an active political supporter, now of John Kerry. I want to give you a chance to respond to what John O'Neill writes in his book, and what he's just said.

ADMIRAL WILLIAM CROWE, FRM. JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: Well, the book is a capitulation of the complaints and criticisms they've had all along. It really ads nothing new.

Because of the limits of time, I'd like to speak to the fleeing business. There were other boats there, Mr. O'Neill who I do not know, we enjoy one thing together, neither one of us never saw any of these incidents, neither one of us had ever met Kerry, and the bulk of these 257 people were not on the scene.

If one of the boats fled, under fire and the other boats didn't bring him into account with a senior officer, that makes no sense whatsoever, that defies reason. Fleeing under fire, of course, is a general court martial offense. The Navy has ways to do that. What were these other skippers are doing?

I have gone through all of the records of the action reports, fitness reports, medal citations, comments, also spot action reports, no mention of that whatsoever.

BLITZER: All right. I'm going to let John O'Neill respond. But I want to take a quick commercial break, because we have much more to discuss. A very sensitive subject indeed. We'll hear more from John O'Neill and retired Admiral William Crowe in just a moment.

Also coming up, as Florida braces for a one-two punch, the mid- Atlantic and northeast could face some serious danger. The latest from the National Hurricane Center. We'll go there live.

And a former Washington favorite now accused in Iraq, we'll speak with the daughter of Ahmad Chalabi. She's here to defend her father.

Plus, a major development in the rape case against Kobe Bryant. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BLITZER: Welcome back. Let's continue our debate on John Kerry's record as a decorated Vietnam War veteran. Joining us once again, John O'Neill. He's the author of the new book "Unfit For Command."

And retired U.S. Navy Admiral, the former chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, William Crowe.

I want you to respond, John O'Neill, to what the Admiral Crow just said before the break, but also in the context of what Senator John McCain, who himself served some six years in a Vietnam prison, a Vietnamese prison. He says that what you and your colleagues are saying is dishonest and dishonorable. But go ahead and respond.

O'NEILL: More than 22 POWs have backed our efforts. More than 60 people who won the Purple Heart in Vietnam signed our letter. And 254 people in our unit, including 17 of the 23 officers that served with Kerry have signed the letter. There's only one that backs Kerry out of 23.

And Admiral Crowe, by the way, has talked to none of them, to the best of my knowledge, and wasn't there -- and wasn't there within four years of the time of these incidents. I've talked to many of them.

BLITZER: Let's let the Admiral Crowe respond to that.

O'NEILL: Can I talk to Rassman.

BLITZER: Yes, hold on one second. We're going to get to that. But let him respond to the specific point you just made -- Admiral.

CROWE: Well, it's inaccurate. I came into Vietnam right after these incidents just as the Admiral Zimall (ph) left. But I don't think the numbers people that didn't see it, or weren't there, that are relying on hearsay, I don't understand the strength of that.

BLITZER: There's some people who suggest, Mr. O'Neill, that what you're angry at John Kerry and your colleagues are angry at him, not so much for what he did during his tour of duty in Vietnam, but for what he did when he came back from Vietnam. He testified against the war, and he threw his ribbons into that pile. Is that a fair suggestion?

O'NEILL: No one is angry at John Kerry for being against the war. People are very upset that he came back and labeled us all war criminals, but that wouldn't cause people to say things falsely. There were three other officers that day on March the 13th, 1969. They all saw what happened. And their accounts are in this book "Unfit For Command" and can be found right at swiftvets.com.

They're not Republicans or Democrats, they saw the ad at the Democratic National Convention in which he said all boats fled and he came back, no man left behind. But they didn't flee, they stayed there. They couldn't flee. The boat had no screws.

BLITZER: Let's let the admiral respond to that. Go ahead admiral.

CROWE: Well, that's a very confused situation. I can find nothing in the records that would suggest that. The war history doesn't say that. As a matter of fact, the two probably prominent impressions that came from the book, is number one, it's a very skillful, political polemic. It's not an account, it's a political polemic. And it is set out to trash John Kerry. In the process, they work over the U.s. Navy and also feel that it is corrupt, et cetera, et cetera.

BLITZER: All right. Let me let Mr. O'Neill respond to that. Go ahead, John.

O'NEILL: Let me tell you, my family was in the U.S. Navy before Admiral Crowe, who was in the Navy for a long time, got involved. My dad graduated in the class on '31, my grandfather taught there, my brothers graduated from there. And it's just false to say that our book trashing the Navy.

The guy who trashed the U.S. Navy was John Kerry, who came back and compared us to the army of Genghis Khan. With respect to the confusion, there's no confusion at all, Admiral. The people that were there, the actual people on the scene, they remember going to the 3 boat that was disabled and seeing no Kerry around.

BLITZER: Go ahead. Admiral, go ahead.

CROWE: Throughout the book it puzzled me in many incidents where you have made these conclusions there are ways for people who are in command of other boats, other units, to make one of the offender accountable, to bring it up to the Navy's attention, to complain about it, to have a voice in action reports, to complain about the medal system. None of that was done.

None of these people in the numbers that you are talking about, raised those suggestions or questions at the time. They came up when, 30 years later, he's running a prominent political office, very, very suspect.

O'NEILL: That's not what happened. Tom Wright...

CROWE: Oh yes, it is.

O'NEILL: Tom Wright, in the book, outlines the conversation that he had with John Kerry, where he asked...

CROWE: More hearsay. O'NEILL: Tom Wright, who is a retired Captain of the United States Navy said, "I will no longer operate with John Kerry. He fires without regard to human life. He's careless. I won't even operate with him." Kerry, then, left.

He was only there 3 months, Admiral. It takes a little while to figure anybody out. They did the best they could.

BLITZER: John O'Neill, I want you to respond. Over the past 24, 48 hours, there have been some serious questions raised about your co- author, Jerry Corsi. They have discovered some comments he's written on various Web sites which appear to be anti-Muslim, anti-Jewish, anti-Catholic. I could read some of them, but we don't have a whole lot of time.

I wonder if you want to disassociate yourself from what he has written.

O'NEILL: Oh, absolutely.

Jerry Corsi acted as sort of an editor of our book. And so instead of attacking the facts of the book with all these people who were in Vietnam with John Kerry, 60 of them, the attack is now on this guy who is an editor. His remarks were inappropriate. He shouldn't have made them. He's a devout Catholic, as a matter of fact. But Jerry Corsi was not in Vietnam, doesn't claim to be. He simply helped us in editing the book.

The 60 people who were with Kerry in Vietnam, this is their book.

BLITZER: All right, but he's listed as the co-author of the book, isn't he?

O'NEILL: He is. And he performed in the same way as Douglas Brinkley or anybody else a function in editing, in -- particularly in the second half of the book, in historical research, because he had done a great deal of research on the anti-war movement, the Vietnam Veterans Against the War, but not in the Vietnam section of the book.

Admiral Crowe, I gave John O'Neill the first world. I'll give you the last. Go ahead.

CROWE: Well, I think there's a lot of myth connected with this thing. If you want a balanced treatment of what -- Kerry's life and particularly in the Navy, you will not get it out of this book. This book is based on hearsay, numerous interviews, some artful writing, but nothing of great evidential impact. The official view doesn't acknowledge any of this.

BLITZER: All right.

We're going to, unfortunately, leave it there, but I'm sure there's going to be plenty of opportunity to continue this debate.

John O'Neill, thanks very much for joining us.

O'NEILL: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Admiral Crowe, thanks to you as well.

O'NEILL: Thank you, Wolf.

BLITZER: Thank you.
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http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/06/ltm.03.html
CNN AMERICAN MORNING
Aired August 6, 2004 - 08:00
Bill Hemmer, CNN ANCHOR:
BOB ELDER Swiftie
Del Sandusky supports Kerry


HEMMER: Clearly a story we're watching throughout the day here. Also in politics now, and the politics of war, too, the Kerry campaign up in arms about a new attack ad that accuses the senator of lying about his service in Vietnam 35 years ago. Set to air in three battleground states, here now is the ad in full.

> Play Video <

HEMMER: Let's talk about this now with Bob Elder, featured in that advertisement. He's with Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, live in Wilmington, Delaware.

Also with us today, Del Sandusky, piloted John Kerry's Swift Boat in Vietnam. He's campaigning for the senator. He finds himself today live in Orlando, Florida.

Gentlemen, welcome to both of you here.

And I want to begin with Mr. Elder.

In the ad, you say, and quoting now, "John Kerry is no war hero."

Why do you make that claim?

ELDER: We make that claim for two reasons. One, as you could see, it was that he betrayed all of us when he came home and went in front of the Congress of the United States and accused all of us of war crimes. That is not what a war hero is made of.

Secondly, we believe he grossly exaggerated and even lied about some of the circumstances under which certain awards were given to him.

HEMMER: Let me be a little more specific. The ad says, and quoting, "John Kerry lied about his first Purple Heart." The ad says "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star."

What did he lie about?

ELDER: That first Purple Heart was the result of him firing an M79 grenade over the side of his boat. The grenade went off too close to the boat and he was wounded, and very slightly, a scratch on his arm, by his own grenade. There was no hostile fire and one of the qualifications for a Purple Heart is that there be hostile fire.

Both the doctor who treated him and his commanding officer denied him that Purple Heart because there was no hostile fire.

HEMMER: Mr. Elder, were you there that day?

ELDER: I was not there.

HEMMER: How can you give that account, then? Based on what?

ELDER: I could fill this studio with people who were eyewitnesses to the events that we recount in our testimony.

HEMMER: Mr. Sandusky, you were there in March of 1969 when this incident occurred in the Mekong Delta. Apparently four boats were patrolling this area. Bought number three hit a mine.

Your version of the events for Senator Kerry at that point are what?

DEL SANDUSKY, VIETNAM VETERAN: I was with John Kerry. I was the leading petty officer and the helmsman on PCF-94. I served with John Kerry. Those men did not serve with John Kerry.

We were all in the same war at the same time, possibly, but I could say the same thing. I served with General Westmoreland.

Their ad is a pack of lies. They're shooting their selves in the foot.

Senator John McCain has said that their ad is dishonest and dishonorable and asked for them to cease-fire. Senator McCain has asked the president to get them to cease-fire, you know, back down.

I don't know where they're coming from. I don't know what their agenda is. I was with John Kerry. I know that he deserved his Bronze Star, his Silver Star and two of his three Purple Hearts.

HEMMER: Mr....

SANDUSKY: I was not there for the first.

HEMMER: If I could, though, can you address the story about this grenade firing that Mr. Elder just talked about?

SANDUSKY: No, that was his first Purple Heart in 1968. John Kerry came on my boat in 1969.

HEMMER: All right. Back to Mr. Elder then.

How do you respond or react to what Senator McCain is saying? I think his words yesterday were dishonest and dishonorable, this ad. The White House apparently saying it has never and will never question John Kerry's service in Vietnam.

Your reaction to that?

ELDER: I think John Kerry knows a lot about dishonor. When he came back and dishonored himself by betraying the men who he had bonded with in combat and betraying them and accusing them of war crimes, he knows dishonor.

HEMMER: Let me try and be a little more specific. Is your problem with Senator Kerry today how he served in Vietnam or is your problem how he acted with his anti-war behavior back here in the U.S.?

ELDER: It is not only his anti-war behavior, but it has to do with what he said about his actions. The event that occurred when the mine hit the boat, three of the men in that advertisement that we just aired were there on site, had an unrestricted view of that site. And they can tell you that at the time John Kerry picked the soldier out of the water, that water was a mill pond. There was no enemy fire at all at that time.

HEMMER: There are also those in the Kerry campaign who disagree vehemently at times with this advertisement and this campaign. They will ask you why now, 35 years later.

How do you answer that?

ELDER: We have sat silent in actual visceral contempt of this man for so many years because of his betrayal. We all went home and did our own thing over the 35 years. Only when he decided he wanted to become commander-in-chief did we begin to seek each other out. We are military men. We do not think this man is qualified to be, or fit to become the commander-in-chief.

HEMMER: Mr. Sandusky, how to you address that?

SANDUSKY: Commander Elliott was our division commander and in our chain of command it went to Captain Hoffman, and Captain Hoffman reported to Admiral Zumwalt. For Elder or any of the other people to question John Kerry's loyalty or say that this was all false, they're trying to rewrite history. They're trying to say that what happened didn't happen.

Commander Elliott put John Kerry in for those medals. Lieutenant -- Captain Rassman, a special forces officer who was rescued by John Kerry, recommended the Silver Star. Commander Elliott put John Kerry in for a Bronze Star for that action.

I was there. I saw the bullets skimming across the water. I saw the firefight gun flashes from the jungle. I know the firefight and the ambush we were in. Those were Elders' and my friends on the 3 boat, where boat crewmen from the Swift Boat of 1969.

HEMMER: Let me just get to one final point, if I could, Mr. Sandusky. I'm almost out of time here.

SANDUSKY: Sure.

HEMMER: Those who oppose the stance of John Kerry today based on his actions from 35 years ago say this was a man who was looking for the quickest way out of the war. Three Purple Hearts did it for him.

Does that square with the John Kerry that you served with in Southeast Asia?

SANDUSKY: No. If I'd have had three Purple Hearts, I'd have gotten asked to be, you know, rotating back to the States, also. John Kerry was a warrior. We need a warrior in the White House. We've got a mess over in Iraq. I support John Kerry. All of the boat crewmen from the 94 boat, we served with John Kerry, we're all behind him. We all support him and believe that he'll make a great commander-in- chief.

HEMMER: Del Sandusky, Bob Elder, our guests this morning.

Gentlemen, thank you for joining our debate today.

SANDUSKY: Thank you.

ELDER: Thank you.
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Hardball with Chris Matthews' for August 9
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5648962/
Andy Horne Swiftie
John Hurley Kerry Vet Coord

A group of Vietnam veterans says Senator Kerry‘s lying about his service. Reaction from two Vietnam veterans

MATTHEWS: One week after John Kerry and his band of brothers touted his war record at the Democratic national convention, a group of veterans called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth have unveiled an ad that accuses Kerry of lying to get his medals. Here‘s part of the ad.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEWS: Andy Horne is a member of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, and John Hurley is the national director of Veterans for Kerry.
Andy, let me ask you, I‘ll just give you a minute here, what is it that you know that contradicts the public story we‘ve gotten from the Kerry campaign about his service?

ANDY HORNE, SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH: Well, I know, first of all, that Senator Kerry‘s after-action reports were taken from his own Web site. Those have been compared with the affidavits that have been executed by the people who were actually there and actually saw the things he was writing fantasies about. We also know...


MATTHEWS: OK, tell me what—tell me what that adds up to. What was wrong about the presentation by the Kerry campaign?

HORNE: Well, it didn‘t happen the way he said it happened.

MATTHEWS: What didn‘t happen, sir? Specify that.

HORNE: Well, I haven‘t specifically seen the Kerry campaign ads...

MATTHEWS: Well, how do you know they‘re not accurate?

HORNE: ... but I have seen—well, because he‘s claiming that he earned these medals as a result of the actions that he describes not only in his book but in other venues. And the people who were there executed affidavits contesting his description of those events.

MATTHEWS: Jim Rassmann said that John Kerry saved his life by pulling him into his swift boat. Is that true?

HORNE: Well, I‘m sure that Mr. Rassmann was pulled out of the water, and thus his life was saved, but that was the job of our boats. We did that all the time. What the affidavits reflect is that people were—several people went in the water, and they were all being pulled out, but Mr. Kerry had to return to the scene in order to assist in that.

MATTHEWS: Right. Well, the account that we all saw, and I saw covering the campaign, Andy, was that John Kerry went back and got this man under enemy fire, he pulled him into the boat while he‘s under fire. Jim Rassmann says that‘s what happened. John Kerry says that‘s what happened. Who‘s to—who is contradicting that fact?

HORNE: Well, when you talk about returned to the—returned to pick him up, what happens in those events, when something happens, the boats cluster around the injured boat. Nobody leaves. They either fight the enemy, if that‘s necessary, or they assist the boat that‘s in trouble. And Mr. Kerry had to leave in order to return.

MATTHEWS: Right.

HORNE: And I think the reason that Rassmann fell overboard was Kerry‘s acceleration to get out of the way. And he wasn‘t...

MATTHEWS: Well, Rassmann wasn‘t...

HORNE: ... the injured boat.

MATTHEWS: ... in the boat. But Rassmann wasn‘t in the boat, as I understand.
Is that right, John Hurley?

JOHN HURLEY, VETERANS FOR KERRY: That‘s correct. Rassmann was...

MATTHEWS: Rassmann was picked up by another boat, by John Kerry‘s boat.

HORNE: Which boat is Rassmann claiming to be in, the 94 boat or some other boat?

HURLEY: The 94 boat.

MATTHEWS: The 94 boat.

HORNE: Well, the 94 boat was being driven by John Kerry, and I suspect the reason that Kerry—that Rassmann fell out of the boat is because Kerry accelerated.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me get the...

HORNE: It wasn‘t even the damaged boat.

MATTHEWS: OK, let me get this story from John Hurley. How do you remember the scene?
I was not there.

HURLEY: The—I was not there, but the men that were there...

HORNE: Nor was I.

HURLEY: The men that were there—Jim Rassmann was on John Kerry‘s boat. John Kerry‘s boat was hit by some explosion. Jim Rassmann was blown overboard. John Kerry was blown about in the pilot house and was injured.

MATTHEWS: And did the boat leave and then come back?

HURLEY: That‘s correct..

MATTHEWS: Why did the boat leave in the first instance?

HURLEY: To escape the kill zone.

MATTHEWS: And then came back to pick this guy up.

HURLEY: Because they realized that a man left behind, they came back to pick him up. It was not just one boat. There were three boats that came back.

MATTHEWS: So this is a different reading on the same story, it seems to me, Andy.

HORNE: Well, I got have to tell you, Mr. Hurley, I‘m honored to speak with you. We shouldn‘t be meeting this way.

MATTHEWS: Well, I don‘t intend to have a fight here. I just want to...

HORNE: But I want to tell you...

MATTHEWS: ... say—why is it so important for you, sir, to get involved in this fight if, basically, what Kerry said did happen?

HORNE: Well, it basically didn‘t happen. And when you‘re talking about my involvement, my involvement has to do with Senator Kerry‘s testimony before the United States Congress and the American people.

MATTHEWS: So your anger against him, or your concern about him, your problem with him—I‘m not sure what the right word is—is what he did after he came back from Vietnam.

HORNE: Well, that, too. Mostly what he did when he came back from Vietnam.

MATTHEWS: Would you be participating in this issue it if it was simply an argument as to the interpretation as to his performance as an officer commanding that boat in the inland waterways of Vietnam? Would you be concerned at all that he had gone away and come back?

HORNE: Oh, you bet I...

MATTHEWS: ... under enemy fire? You‘d still be concerned that he had come back under enemy fire.

HORNE: Well, first of all, I dispute that that was under enemy fire. And you know, when a guy leaves to clear the kill zone, he‘s leaving his people behind, and that‘s the point. You don‘t leave the kill zone. You stay there and you fight.

MATTHEWS: OK, well...

HORNE: And this man didn‘t do that.

MATTHEWS: Well, he did—OK. I‘m not getting—what did you—respond.

HORNE: Well, I mean, Mr. Hurley said that.

MATTHEWS: And you said what you said. I‘m just trying to get it together here. It‘s like “Rashomon”! I‘m trying to get—you‘re both war heroes to me. You‘re both guys who served your country with gallantry. I just think it‘s interesting that this comes down to a fight over what happened overseas, when the real fight is over the political issue of whether John Kerry should have come back and condemned the war or not.

HORNE: Well, if...

MATTHEWS: And it seems to me that‘s what the fight‘s about, and that‘s what we should be fighting about instead of going over the old territory here.

HORNE: I dispute your characterization.

MATTHEWS: OK. Thank you. I think we know where we‘re at, and I think everybody‘s done well here. John, I‘m sorry I didn‘t—please both come back. I hope this doesn‘t become an ongoing issue. Andy Horne, John Hurley, gentlemen, I salute you.
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ONEILL on Hardball
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5694561/
Hardball with Chris Matthew' for August 12
Guest: John Hurley Kerry campaign
John O‘Neill Swiftie

MATTHEWS: This half-hour on HARDBALL, Vietnam Veteran John O‘Neill, John Kerry‘s longtime nemesis, on his contested new book, “Unfit For Command.” O‘Neill is here to debate John Hurley, the national director of the group Veterans for Kerry.
But, first, the latest headlines.
(NEWS BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

John O‘Neill is the co-author of “Unfit For Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry.” Mr. O‘Neill succeeded John Kerry‘s command of the PCF-94 swift boat in Vietnam. And John Hurley is the national director of Veterans for Kerry.
Let me ask you gentlemen about these questions. But let‘s start with the central notion that a lot of us have of John Kerry. Whatever you think of his politics, he was a war hero. Is that true?

JOHN O‘NEILL, SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH: That‘s not true at all.

MATTHEWS: Why isn‘t it true?

O‘NEILL: More than 60 people from his unit are in this book right here. He served with 23 officers in this unit. There are 17 of them that have signed our letter condemning him. They have some very good reasons why.

MATTHEWS: OK.

O‘NEILL: First of all, he was there a very short period of time.
Second, as the book outlines, he fabricated at least two of his Purple Hearts, I think conclusively, based on the documentation.

MATTHEWS: All right.

O‘NEILL: He provided false reports and then he went home. That‘s OK.
But he was no war hero.

MATTHEWS: OK, let‘s start with this from the top.
And I want to you join in this right on the top here. You‘re both familiar with his military record. He was in Vietnam how long, John?

JOHN HURLEY, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, VIETNAM VETERANS FOR JOHN KERRY: He conducted—he had two tours in Vietnam, one on the USS Gridley and one on the swift boat, two swift boats in the Delta?

MATTHEWS: Do you could concur on that?

O‘NEILL: Not at all. The USS Gridley was not a tour in Vietnam. It was a ship way off the coast of Vietnam.

MATTHEWS: But my brother was on one of those ships that was off the shore. And that was considered combat.

O‘NEILL: He was there for five weeks on the Gridley off the coast.

MATTHEWS: But was that recorded as combat theater duty?

O‘NEILL: Absolutely.

(CROSSTALK)
O‘NEILL: But he was on the Gridley for five weeks off the coast.

MATTHEWS: OK.
Let‘s try to use Naval language and Naval rulings here and not personal reflections.
O‘NEILL: Sure.

MATTHEWS: OK.
Was he given credit, John Hurley, for serving in Vietnam when he was on that ship?

HURLEY: Yes. Yes.

MATTHEWS: Was he given credit by the Navy for serving in Vietnam?

O‘NEILL: Yes. But it would never have been considered a tour in Vietnam by the Navy or anybody else.

MATTHEWS: Well, why was he given credit for it?

O‘NEILL: Well, he was given credit for exactly what he did, which was being on the Gridley off the coast. It was not a one-year tour of Vietnam.

MATTHEWS: Let‘s go to the question of the Silver Star. How did he win the Silver Star?

HURLEY: He won the Silver Star when PCF-94, which is his second command in Vietnam, came under ambush in February of 1969. John Kerry ordered his helmsman, Del Sandusky, to turn the boat into the ambush. They went in.
As they beached the boat, V.C. with a grenade launcher, an RPG, stood up 10 feet away from them and started running away. They had already opened fire. Tommy Belodeau was on the bow gun that day. He winged this guy in the leg. But the guy did not break stride. He kept right on running. Took off. Kerry took off after him, got off the boat with an M-16.
(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: By himself.

HURLEY: No. He was followed by Mike Medeiros and subsequently followed by Tommy Belodeau.

MATTHEWS: And he was leading the way?

HURLEY: He was leading the way. And he chased this guy down a path.
Fred Short, who was on the twin 50s that day, will tell you that he observed the whole thing. He followed him down a path that this V.C. was turning towards the boat with the armed B-40 rocket and John Kerry killed him.

(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Now, who put him up for the award, for the Silver?

HURLEY: I do not know.

MATTHEWS: But he received the Silver Star.

HURLEY: He did receive the Silver Star.

MATTHEWS: And who has to approve the Silver Star?

HURLEY: In this case, it was Admiral Zumwalt. Admiral Zumwalt said in 1996 that he felt John Kerry deserved a Navy Cross for his actions that day.

MATTHEWS: Which is a much higher award.

HURLEY: Which is a much higher award.
But that it would have to have gone back to the Pentagon for approval. He was looking for a morale booster in the Delta. He could issue a Silver Star on his own authority and did so and issued it very quickly to John Kerry.

MATTHEWS: Do you deny that he won the Silver Star?

O‘NEILL: Well, he received the Silver Star.

MATTHEWS: Do you deny that he deserved it?

O‘NEILL: Absolutely.

MATTHEWS: Why?

O‘NEILL: Because...

MATTHEWS: Why do you disagree with the Navy on this?

O‘NEILL: Well, because the Navy didn‘t have the facts.
The citation, which you can read in the book “Unfit For Command,” says that he turned into superior forces and into intense fire. He was on a gunboat with 20 or 30 troops. It was a huge gunboat. There was a single fleeing Viet Cong.
Commander Elliott, who wrote the citation, indicated he didn‘t understand that. All of us defend his right to shoot that guy in the back because the guy had fired at him. None of us say that was a war crime. What we do say, had the Navy known the actual facts, he wouldn‘t have received the Silver Star. There was an Army...

MATTHEWS: Well, who put him up for the award?

O‘NEILL: Commander Elliott, based on the notion that he had gone into a bunker full of a large number of Viet Cong by himself.

(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: How did he get that notion?

O‘NEILL: Because John Kerry told him that, because that‘s what the report carefully read by John Kerry says for that day, on that day, March the—February the 28th.

MATTHEWS: You, in other words, argue that the Silver Star he received was wrongly awarded because of failure of the right information to reach Elliott and then that Zumwalt was simply given further bad information.

O‘NEILL: Yes, based on the report Kerry himself provided and the information he provided. We don‘t deny that Kerry should have gotten, acted with ordinary courage. We don‘t attack Kerry for shooting the kid in the back.

MATTHEWS: How do you assess the fact of a commander of a ship bringing a ship basically, beaching a swift boat, going into land, hostile territory, knowing that there‘s V.C. all around and chasing after a guy in very much hostile territory. If you don‘t call that courage, what would you call that?

O‘NEILL: I think it involves an ordinary degree of courage, Chris. I just don‘t think that that‘s the Silver Star.
MATTHEWS: So, in other words, he showed courage in Vietnam.

O‘NEILL: I think that in chasing this kid and shooting him in the back, that that involved some degree of courage. And I believe we all believe that that involved some degree of physical courage.

MATTHEWS: Well, he risked his life, didn‘t he?

O‘NEILL: I don‘t believe that...

MATTHEWS: You mean he didn‘t face enemy, potential enemy fire by going up on the beach in Vietnam in V.C. territory?

O‘NEILL: You mean on that occasion?

MATTHEWS: Yes.

O‘NEILL: I don‘t really think so, Chris. We had people shoot at us.
John Kerry got shot at. I‘m not denying that John Kerry in being shot at showed courage. I think he did, just like all the rest of us.
(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Well, compare that to Bush‘s record in Vietnam.

O‘NEILL: Well, I‘m not here to...

MATTHEWS: No, I mean, if a man shows any courage in the battlefield, he‘s done more than most people do in this country. He‘s gone out and fought for his country and risked his life for his country and shot one of the enemy for his country. That puts him a step above most people, doesn‘t it?

O‘NEILL: I think he is millions of steps behind, because he went over...

MATTHEWS: Behind whom?

O‘NEILL: Behind everybody.

MATTHEWS: You mean Bush? President Bush?

O‘NEILL: Yes. I‘m not going to speak to President Bush.
(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: No, because you‘re out here as a proactive indicter of this guy‘s war record. You‘ve chosen to take this role, to write this book, to get these allies to make these case. You‘re a Republican from Texas. You‘re making this case against the guy.
And I‘m simply saying, you can‘t just go out here and take these shots without being responded to by me. I‘m going to ask you, is he less a hero than Bush?

O‘NEILL: And I would like to answer, if you‘ll give me a chance
.
MATTHEWS: Sure. Sure. Plenty of time. Take all the time you want.

O‘NEILL: First of all, I‘m not a Republican from Texas. That‘s just not true.
Second, with respect to what he did, we don‘t challenge that he went ashore that day. With respect to overall, he had very limited accomplishments in the short period he was in Vietnam and he came back here and delivered almost a death blow to the U.S. military by lying.

MATTHEWS: OK, that‘s another issue. We‘ll get to that issue.
(CROSSTALK)

O‘NEILL: Just a second.

MATTHEWS: That‘s why you‘re mad at him.

O‘NEILL: Absolutely not.
First of all, I believe that his comments and the war crimes claims back here were absolutely wrong. And I‘ll never forget those. Neither will the guys.

MATTHEWS: What war crimes?

O‘NEILL: His claims that U.S. troops committed war crimes on a day-to-day basis, that we were like Genghis Khan.
But a wholly separate issue is, did exaggerate his service in Vietnam?
And my answer to that is, clearly he did.

(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: But you have a record going back yourself. But you go back to the Nixon era, when Nixon was looking for someone. Colson and those guys were looking for somebody to debunk the Kerry record, because all the records show they were scared to death of this guy. And you played that role. You close to play that role.

O‘NEILL: Once...

MATTHEWS: I‘m sorry. I don‘t want to get
(CROSSTALK)

O‘NEILL: That‘s just not true.

MATTHEWS: By the way, disabuse the public who are watching right now what I‘m wrong about. Where do you live?

O‘NEILL: I live in Houston, Texas.

MATTHEWS: OK, you‘re a Texan.
Have you voted Democrat recently for president?

O‘NEILL: Absolutely. I haven‘t voted for a Republican since 1988. As a matter of fact, I just backed the Democratic mayor of Houston, Bill White.

(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: OK, so you‘ve voted—you‘re generally a Republican or a Democrat when it comes to voting for president?

O‘NEILL: It depends on the person, Chris.

MATTHEWS: Did you vote for Clinton?

O‘NEILL: No, actually.

MATTHEWS: Did you vote for Gore?

O‘NEILL: I voted for Perot twice.

MATTHEWS: OK. Did you vote for Gore?

O‘NEILL: I voted for Gore. I voted for Gore. I don‘t know really why I should go into my voting record.
(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: No, because it comes down to the question. We‘re going over the issue here of you going after a guy‘s war record and admitting he was courageous in battle, but then arguing about the nature of the way he was awarded the Silver Star. I‘m just wondering why you‘re doing this.

O‘NEILL: Well, the reason I‘m doing it is, he wildly exaggerated two things. He wildly exaggerated his record, which...
MATTHEWS: Well, let‘s start with that. We‘re going down the record.

O‘NEILL: Can I finish answering the question?

MATTHEWS: He won the Silver Star. He was put up for it by General—by Admiral...

O‘NEILL: You‘re not going to let me answer.

MATTHEWS: No, I‘m letting you answer it. But help me out here.

O‘NEILL: All right.

MATTHEWS: He got the Silver Star. He got the Bronze Star. He won three Purple Hearts. You‘re saying this is all just unfair.

O‘NEILL: I‘m saying that, with respect to his Silver Star, he exaggerated the circumstances, that no competent military person that I know would give someone a Silver Star for shooting a kid in the back, although I don‘t find anything wrong with that.
I‘m saying, with respect to his Purple Hearts, two of the three of them, all you need to do is look at the paper. He provided falsified paper to get out of Vietnam in a short period.

MATTHEWS: OK, let‘s list—let‘s go down the list.
Silver Star. Respond to what he said about the Silver Star.

HURLEY: His book and his organization is built on lies and distortions.
John McCain had it absolutely right when he said, Chris, when he said it is dishonorable and dishonest what Mr. O‘Neill‘s organization is doing. They‘re taking and distorting the facts. They‘re in writing from 1969. If you look at those award recommendations, if you look at those fitness reports, if you go back and talk to the people who were actually there, there is no question and no dispute about John Kerry‘s heroism in Vietnam. And this now is a Republican-backed, Republican-funded...

MATTHEWS: OK, let‘s go through some of—let‘s go. I wanted to go through this logically. But now that you‘ve raised this, his shipmates, are they all with Kerry in terms of what happened? Not the politics, who is voting for him. I don‘t care, could care less. Are they all with him on the facts?

HURLEY: Every man who was with him when he won the Silver Star, when he won the Bronze Star, when he won three Purple Hearts is with him.

MATTHEWS: Is that true?

O‘NEILL: Absolutely false.

MATTHEWS: Who among the people with him on that ship disagree with his record?

O‘NEILL: First of all...

MATTHEWS: On the ship.

O‘NEILL: Well, his first Purple Heart was not on a ship. It was on a Boston whaler.

MATTHEWS: Right.

O‘NEILL: With him on the Boston whaler was Lieutenant William Schachte, now Rear Admiral William Schachte. He will tell you that he falsified that award, that the award was forged.

MATTHEWS: Answer?

HURLEY: This is dishonest.
There were three men on that boat that night, John Kerry, Bill Zaladonis, Pat Runyon, period, three men on that boat. This is part of irresponsible journalism, irresponsible reporting. There was no one else on that boat that night. And those men will tell you exactly what happened that night.

MATTHEWS: What happened?

HURLEY: They went into an inlet where they had been advised that there were V.C. using a crossing to traffic in contraband. They went in. They towed a number of fishermen and sampans out to a swift boat. The Boston whaler is a very small boat. It‘s a 14-to-15-foot boat. There were three of them in it. They went in under power, at some point, cut the engine and paddled in.
They encountered V.C.—they encountered Vietnamese fishermen, towed them back out to the swift boat for interrogation. On one trip in, the final trip in, they spotted V.C. crossing this inlet where they were told there would be V.C. Kerry popped the flare, exposing their position. The V.C. began to run. They opened fire on the V.C. As they were exiting the inlet, Kerry felt—there was an explosion in the water and Kerry felt a stinging, burning sensation in his arm. There was no fourth person.

MATTHEWS: Who put him up for the Purple Heart?

HURLEY: It is a function of getting medical treatment for that injury. He was treated the next day, the next morning at Cam Rahn Bay for that injury. They removed shrapnel from his arm. And by virtue of that medical treatment, he received the Purple Heart.

MATTHEWS: How do you know that?

HURLEY: Because that‘s the...

MATTHEWS: How do you know he had shrapnel removed from his arm?

O‘NEILL: Because the medical report says removed shrapnel from his arm.

MATTHEWS: What about that, John?

HURLEY: And the fourth person on this boat is a dishonest and ridiculous attempt.

O‘NEILL: We have just called the No. 2 guy in the Judge Advocate General‘s Corps a liar.
Now, let‘s deal with how he got the Purple Heart. His commanding officer was a man named Grant Hibbard. He has provided an affidavit. Kerry went in to Grant Hibbard and said, I‘m entitled to a Purple Heart. Grant Hibbard, the division commander said, forget it. You‘re not getting any Purple Heart. There wasn‘t any hostile fire and you have got a scratch here. I‘m not giving you any Purple Heart.
The hostile fire report, Chris, exists for every other Purple Heart ever issued in Vietnam. There also is a casualty report.

MATTHEWS: OK, look, we have got two other Purple Hearts to deal with. We‘ll be right back. We have got two Purple Hearts, a Bronze Star, and a Silver.

Let‘s all come back and talk about it.
We‘re coming back with John O‘Neill and John Hurley.
Don‘t forget, you can keep up with the presidential race on HardBlogger, our election blog Web site. Just go to HARDBALL.MSNBC.com.
You‘re watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: Coming up, the debate continues over John Kerry‘s war record with two Vietnam veterans, longtime Kerry rival John O‘Neill and the national director of Veterans For Kerry, John Hurley.
HARDBALL back after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We‘re back with John O‘Neill, co-author of “Unfit For Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry, and John Hurley, national director of Veterans For Kerry.
Let‘s go to that other medal, because I want to be somewhat analytical here, the Bronze.
Why did he get Bronze?

(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: John Hurley first.

O‘NEILL: Chris, we didn‘t finish on that—I didn‘t give you the rest of the story on that first Purple Heart.

MATTHEWS: OK. Finish up.

O‘NEILL: It was denied by the division commander. After everybody left Vietnam, somehow it mysteriously appears three months later without any of the supporting documents, with no hostile fire report, no casualty report.

MATTHEWS: OK, let‘s go to the Bronze.

HURLEY: If Mr. O‘Neill was interested in the truth, the Swift Boat Veterans For Truth, if he was interested in the truth, he would have tried to talk to any of John Kerry‘s crewmates for this book. He did not talk to John Kerry‘s crewmates.
MATTHEWS: Is that true?

O‘NEILL: None of his crewmates could have told me anything about the first Purple Heart.

HURLEY: Did you interview

(CROSSTALK)
HURLEY: ... for the book?

(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Here‘s an interesting thing. There seems to be three broad directions of criticism and support for Kerry.
One is, the Navy gave him the Silver. The Navy gave him the Bronze. The Navy gave him three Purple Hearts. So the Navy, as is the Navy, there‘s the right way, the wrong way, and the Navy way. The Navy way was to give him these awards, OK? We all agree on that because that‘s a fact.

(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: The second group of people that the president him, the second force, is his crewmen. Now, there‘s this other force, people who are not his crewmen, who are not the Navy, who have contributed to your book. What is this about? Why are there three different points of view here, the official Navy way, his crew backing him up? And you‘ve arranged it. You‘ve pulled together these people from all over the place who don‘t like the guy.

(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Seriously, does anybody in your group like John Kerry and wish they didn‘t have to do this?

O‘NEILL: Oh, all of them. Virtually everybody would be much happier...

MATTHEWS: They like him?

O‘NEILL: ... not to be involved in this at all, Chris.
And I disagree completely with what you just said.

MATTHEWS: OK. Explain it.

O‘NEILL: It‘s peculiar mathematics that takes eight people and makes them larger than 254 people.

MATTHEWS: Because they were his crewmen.

O‘NEILL: We don‘t count that way.
Yes, but these are little boats, Chris. These guys—the officers are bunking with him most nights.

MATTHEWS: I see.

O‘NEILL: These are little boats operating in groups of six.
Chris, they‘re no further than I am from that monitor over there much of the time.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

O‘NEILL: And you‘re talking about 17 of the 23 guys that were his direct peers. You‘re talking about all the guys who were his commanding officers, or almost all of them.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

O‘NEILL: You‘re talking about most of the guys, the sailors who were right there with him, 60 out of 100. They‘re not in this deal because of anything other than trying to get to the truth.

MATTHEWS: OK, explain this, because I know most officers are probably Republicans from the Vietnam era. I don‘t deny that, not all of them, most of them.
The crewmen, I still don‘t understand why you can‘t explain to me why the crewmen who served with him are up on the stage with him at the Democratic Convention. The Navy has not retracted these medals. The crewmen are with him. And you‘re saying, ignore the Navy. Ignore the crew. Go with my crowd.

O‘NEILL: Not at all. I‘m saying, consider the Navy, consider the crew, and then consider the real facts, actually look at the documents.

HURLEY: Chris, this is wrong.
(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Let me get John Hurley.
Run through everything. What is this about, this attack?

HURLEY: This is about a Republican smear campaign sponsored by Republican fund raisers down in Texas, supported by Merrie Spaeth, the Republican communications—this has got nothing to do with John Kerry‘s service in Vietnam, which is documented in documents written in 1969, is supported by every member who served with him on those crews.
Now, 35 years after the fact, crewmates—or people, swifties in Vietnam are coming forward, saying, ah, but I remember it differently now.
Let me read to you. This is from one of those commanders that Mr.
O‘Neill is talking about.

MATTHEWS: Sure.

HURLEY: This is from George Elliott, one of John Kerry‘s commanders in Vietnam. This is the recommendation for the award of the Bronze Star. And he talks about a little bit in this.
Then he says: “Shortly after starting their exit from this river, a mine detonated under one of the boats, PCF-3, lifting it two feet above the water and wounded everyone on board. Almost simultaneously, another mine detonated, close aboard PCF-94, knocking First Lieutenant Rassmann into the water and wounding Lieutenant J.G. Kerry in the right arm.” It goes on that PCF-4 provided cover fire, that they received sniper fire from the riverbanks. “Lieutenant J.G. Kerry, from his exposed position on the bow of the boat, managed to pull Lieutenant Rassmann aboard despite the painful wound in his right arm.
“Meanwhile, PCF-94 gunners provided accurate suppressing fire.” It concludes by saying: “Lieutenant J.G. Kerry proved himself to be calm, professional and highly courageous in the face of enemy fire.” That is signed by George Elliott, one of these same guys now who is saying, oh, but I remember it differently and I want to change my mind.
What is specious about this book, what is dishonest about this book, what John McCain is getting at when he says it‘s dishonest and dishonorable, is that Mr. O‘Neill and his co-author, Mr. Corsi, did not talk to one member of John Kerry‘s crew on that boat. If they were interested in the truth, they would have talked with Jim Rassmann. They would have talked with Fred Short.
(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Did you?

(CROSSTALK)
O‘NEILL: Actually, we did. We interviewed

(CROSSTALK)
O‘NEILL: May I finish?

HURLEY: Private investigator, right?

O‘NEILL: We had a private investigator, specifically to check this out, interview three of the crewmen. They confirmed to us that this Cambodia story was a lie.

MATTHEWS: OK. We‘ll come back.

HURLEY: And then they were instructed not to talk to us anymore.

O‘NEILL: That‘s a lie. That‘s an outright lie.

O‘NEILL: They were instructed specifically not to talk to us.
(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: We‘re coming back with John O‘Neill and John Hurley.
And sign up for HARDBALL‘s free daily e-mail briefing. Just log on to our Web site, HARDBALL.MSNBC.com.
You‘re watching it, HARDBALL, on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTHEWS: We‘re back with John O‘Neill, the co-author of “Unfit For Command,” and John Hurley, national director of Veterans For Kerry.
Gentlemen, first of all, according to this Associated Press story, Kerry got a Purple Heart for getting shrapnel in his left arm above the elbow. If the shrapnel had hit him in the eye, the doctor said it could have blinded him. No. 2, he was wounded with a piece of shrapnel on February 20, this time in the left thigh. Doctors decided to leave the shrapnel in place—it is still in his leg—rather than make a wider opening to remove it.
The third time, he got it from a dangerous situation in March of that year, life-threatening. A mine exploded near Kerry‘s swift boat and enemy snipers were shooting around him. He won the Silver Star for chasing—beaching his swift boat, chasing after some V.C. in V.C. territory and killing one of the V.C. He won his Bronze for saving the life of Mr. Rassmann, as he pulled him into the boat in enemy territory.
I don‘t get the point. If this is all roughly true, why are you—it
is all—what is in dispute here, besides
(CROSSTALK)

HURLEY: Every word of it is true.
(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: All of this is true. And you‘re building a case against the guy on behalf of a guy running for president with absolutely no military experience in the field. So what is the point?

O‘NEILL: First of all, when you start off with the assumption everything is true and refuse to allow it to be questioned...

MATTHEWS: No, I listened to every point you made, but the main point...

O‘NEILL: You haven‘t let me talk about most of them. We talked about his first Purple...

MATTHEWS: You talked about each one.

O‘NEILL: His first Purple...

MATTHEWS: One of the oldest tricks on this show is for somebody to come on the show after talking for 20 minutes and say they haven‘t had the chance to talk.

O‘NEILL: Well, the first...

MATTHEWS: I‘ll be glad to clock you, John...

O‘NEILL: OK.

MATTHEWS: ... on how many minutes you spoke on the show. So don‘t try that old trick. It is a particularly conservative trick, OK?
So let‘s move on here.
What is the main thrust of it? You‘re saying that all of this is smoke, the guy is not a hero.

O‘NEILL: You‘re right. I‘m saying...

MATTHEWS: All smoke?

O‘NEILL: I‘m saying that the third Purple Heart was another self-inflicted wound. I‘m saying he lied about the Bronze Star. And I‘m saying that you, Chris, could read the documents yourself, if you would take the time.

MATTHEWS: And his crewmen back him up and the Navy backs him up.
(CROSSTALK)

O‘NEILL: Wrong.

MATTHEWS: And you‘re it‘s all...

O‘NEILL: Wrong, Chris. The Navy, his actual commanders, virtually all say that those awards were improperly issued.

MATTHEWS: Why am I reading these citations all day from the Navy?
What are you talking about? They don‘t exist?

O‘NEILL: Well, wait just a second. What you‘ve done is...
MATTHEWS: I read the citation for the Bronze. I read it for the Silver. I‘ve studied up on the Purples. And you‘re saying all this is smoke, that he‘s not really a hero of any kind.
(CROSSTALK)

O‘NEILL: Can you tell me, Chris, where the numerically superior force was that was pouring intense fire from one Viet Cong kid with a gunboat? And so it existed only in his report.

MATTHEWS: OK, your last thought.

(CROSSTALK)
HURLEY: John Kerry served heroically. He served courageously. He made wonderful decision-making in Vietnam, saved his crew on a number of occasions. They have his full and complete support. He was recognized by his commanders in Vietnam, particularly Commander Elliott, who said, in a combat situation, John Kerry was unsurpassed.
This now, 35 years later, is, as John McCain said, dishonest and dishonorable. It is a Republican-inspired smear campaign.

MATTHEWS: Well, I‘ve already heard enough that he‘s done more than I ever did for my country and a lot more than anybody else.
Thank you very much, John O‘Neill—and more than the president.
And, John Hurley, thank you for joining us.
_________________
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one of..... We The People

[kate]

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5670691/
Scarborough Country' for August 10
Guest: John Kobylt, Ken Chiampou, Jeh Johnson, Ted Sampley, John O‘Neill

PAT BUCHANAN, GUEST HOST: Is John Kerry unfit for command? That‘s what John O‘Neill says. He is the Naval officer who took over command of Kerry‘s swift boat in Vietnam. His new book claims Kerry is no war hero at all, that he didn‘t deserve his Purple Hearts, Bronze Star or Silver Star, and that he committed acts bordering on treason in wartime. John O‘Neill is here to tell all for his first interview on MSNBC.
And later, two top-rated L.A. radio talk show hosts are targeting the Republican Party in California. They claim the party of Lincoln has gone soft on illegal immigration, so they and their listeners are planning a political human sacrifice of a Republican congressman. And they are here tonight to tell us about it.

ANNOUNCER: From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all. Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

BUCHANAN: I‘m Pat Buchanan, filling in for Joe Scarborough.
My first guest tonight took over command of John Kerry‘s swift boat after Kerry‘s departure from Vietnam. He has an explosive new book that says John Kerry was not fit for command as a Naval officer in Vietnam, let alone as commander in chief of the United States.
John O‘Neill is the author of “Unfit For Command: Swift Boat Veterans Speak Out Against John Kerry.”
John O‘Neill, welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. And thanks for joining us.

JOHN O‘NEILL, SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH: Thank you very much, Pat. It‘s a pleasure to be on the show.

BUCHANAN: Let me ask you, John O‘Neill, in your book, my understanding is that there is not one individual who was in John Kerry‘s swift boat, the one he commanded, who has come out against him. Is that true? And if it is true, why do folks who did not serve under Kerry know him better than his own men?

O‘NEILL: Well, first, Pat, that is not quite accurate.
Steve Gardner was the gunner on Kerry‘s boat. He was actually the guy who served the longest as an enlisted guy under Kerry on Kerry‘s boat. He has joined Swift Boat Veterans For Truth. And he is extensively quoted in connection with this book. It is true that more people on Kerry‘s boat who served as enlisted men under him are in favor of him than are opposed to him.
In contrast, in the unit as a whole, a large majority of the enlisted men have joined our organization, almost all of the officers who were John Kerry‘s peers, 17 out of the 23 of them have joined in condemning John Kerry. Why do they know John Kerry? Because these were little boats, Pat. This is not aircraft carriers. These were little boats that operated in groups of two to six. Everybody bunked together. Everybody lived together.
The officers who served with him actually saw him for a much longer length of time than the enlisted people who were with him.
BUCHANAN: All right. But if the 60 individuals you mention and you mention in your book are telling the truth, are the boys in the swift boat who served under Kerry, are all of them but one not telling truth when they say their commander was a hero?

O‘NEILL: I think that, if you talk—for example, Pat, let‘s take Christmas in Cambodia, Kerry‘s lie that he spent Christmas of 1968 in Cambodia.
I believe that you will find that the men on his boat will also tell you he was lying when he said he spent Christmas in Cambodia. So I do not think it‘s a situation—I do think generally they support him. But I don‘t think they will support him in some of his lies. Where they go beyond that, people will have to ask the questions.

BUCHANAN: All right, well, let me ask, Jim Rassmann, who had a piece in “The Wall Street Journal,” I found it, I will say this, very compelling today. And I wasn‘t want to read a pretty long excerpt from it about what he says about how John Kerry saved his life.
Quote—he said: “When I surfaced in the water, all the swift boats had left and I was alone taking fire from both banks. To avoid the incoming fire, I repeatedly swam under water as long as I could hold my breath. Attempting to make it to the north bank of the river, I thought I would die right there. Kerry‘s boat ran up to me in the water, bow on. And I was able to climb on a cargo net to the lip of the deck. But because I was nearly upside down, I couldn‘t make it over the edge of the deck.
“This left me hanging out in the open, perfect target. John, already wounded by the explosion that threw me off his boat, came onto the bow, exposing himself to fire directed at us from the jungle, and he pulled me aboard. For that, Kerry was awarded a Bronze Star.”
Why shouldn‘t he get a Bronze Star for that?

O‘NEILL: It‘s not what happened, Pat.
Let me try and explain, because Rassmann‘s story is that an explosion occurred under PCF 3, that all the swift boats fled and Kerry came back for him. What actually happened, Pat, was that an explosion lifted PCF 3 out of the water. It threw the crew of PCF 3, at least three of them, into the water and the boat was disabled. It couldn‘t flee, Pat. And all of our boats gathered around PCF 3, not far from Rassmann, within 25 or 30 yards, except for John Kerry. He fled, Pat.
Rassmann is right about that. John Kerry fled. And he came back and did pick up Rassmann shortly before the other boats picked him up. Our boats stayed. They did not flee. And that is not the truth for Rassmann to say that. We had only one guy in our unit who would flee. That‘s John Kerry. Otherwise, I wouldn‘t be here tonight. I wouldn‘t be alive tonight if our guys fled.

BUCHANAN: All right, let me ask you, do the fellows—I can understand Rassmann. Look, if you pull me out of the water and I‘m going under or I‘m going to wind up on the bank and be executed, I would feel an enormous, permanent lifetime debt of gratitude to Kerry. That‘s understandable.
Do the boys and the fellows in the boat with Kerry, do not—I understand there is a man named Larry Thurlow, is there not?

O‘NEILL: Larry Thurlow was the hero of that day, not John Kerry, Pat.

BUCHANAN: All right, tell us what Thurlow did and why the fellows in Kerry‘s boat disagree with Thurlow?

O‘NEILL: Larry Thurlow and others, Jack Chenoweth, were officers immediately behind the 3 boat and immediately alongside Kerry‘s boat.
When the 3 boat was blown out of the water and the sailors blown into the water, Jack Chenoweth went and began picking up the sailors. Kerry fled. They stayed. They could have been killed that day if there was fire. But there was no fire. Chenoweth jumped op the 3 boat. Jack Chenoweth brought it under control. He saved the people that were dazed on the 3 boat.
Kerry was nowhere to be seen. No one knew that Kerry had dropped Rassmann in the water. No one knew why he had fled. Kerry had came back. And it is true that Kerry picked up Rassmann shortly before he was picked up by Jack Chenoweth. But the crewmen on Jack Chenoweth‘s boat and Jack Chenoweth himself estimated that they were 10 yards from Rassmann picking him up when Kerry came to pick him up.

BUCHANAN: All right, John, but, look, this raises a question. Why would this fellow, Thurlow and Jack Chenoweth and these fellows—and Jack Thurlow is apparently a real hero who grabbed that sinking boat, if you will, why did they sit still while Kerry goes and picks up all these medals?

O‘NEILL: Because—oh, they didn‘t know.
What actually happened, Pat, was they actually looked and they saw the advertisement even that Kerry had in January and February and they thought it was some other incident. It was so completely different than what they were involved in, they thought it had to be something else. When they learned that it was related to the incident where the 3 boat was mined, they were shocked. They were just sickened, because the things were portraying them as fleeing and they were the guys that stayed.
And it portrayed Kerry as the hero, when he was the guy that fled. It turned the world upside down. That‘s why they have all come forward one at a time, appeared on television and told their story. It‘s just the world turned upside down.

BUCHANAN: All right, let‘s talk about the Purple Hearts.
Apparently, one of these Purple Hearts, Kerry—what, is he fired a rocket-propelled grenade or something like that at rocks and it came and cut him briefly. And on another occasion, the allegation is that he fired grenades into a pile of rice that had been set aside for the Viet Cong and that‘s how he was injured.
And, again, you get down to the question of how could Kerry file for these Purple Hearts or receive these, return to his unit without having the unit get up and rebel if they are fraudulent?

O‘NEILL: Well, if we take the first Purple Heart, that‘s the one where he actually fired an M-79 round. He got a tiny piece from his own round. There was no hostile fire. He went in to see the division commander. The division commander laughed at him and threw him out and said, you‘re not going to get this.
Unknown to be anyone, three months later, after everyone who knew about it had left Vietnam, Kerry somehow got a Purple Heart, when the facts were no longer known. The third Purple Heart is the deal where he threw a grenade into rice. He caught some rice in his butt. He then attempted to attribute it to the incident involving the 3 boat and thereby left Vietnam. To tell you the truth, they didn‘t care. They were happy to see him go.
No one knew what he was pulling off. But people believed his reports and his peers who were on the scene had no idea what was happening.

BUCHANAN: Well, here is an incident that I have studied separately, before your book came out, and I was going to write on it, because it was an attack on my president, Richard Nixon. And this is where Kerry talks about how he was—Nixon said we‘re not in Cambodia, or weren‘t in Cambodia before the incursion.
And Kerry says—this is United States Senator Kerry—“ I remember Christmas of 1968 sitting on a gunboat in Cambodia. I remember what it was like to be shot at by the Vietnamese and Khmer Rouge and Cambodians, and have the president of the United States telling the American people that I was not there, the troops were not in Cambodia. I have that memory which is seared—seared—in me.”
Now, it can‘t be very well seared, since, in 1968, Richard Nixon wasn‘t even president of the United States. And, secondly, of course, how can you know it was Vietnamese, Khmer Rouge and Cambodia, which ones were firing at you, or all three, unless they put flags up on the riverbank?

O‘NEILL: This is a total and complete lie. If John Kerry can prove that he was in Cambodia on Christmas Eve and Christmas Day of 1968, he should go down and sue me tomorrow morning.
It‘s a lie he‘s told over and over and over again. It libels everybody that commanded him. It‘s the typical prototype sort of war crime charge that John Kerry makes that is a lie. John Kerry was at Sadec. He was at Sadec from a letter to his parents, according to..
.
BUCHANAN: How far is Sadec from Cambodia?

O‘NEILL: Fifty-five miles, 55 miles, Pat. And he was writing a letter, according to his book, “Tour of Duty,” about how he had visions of sugar plums in his head, literally. That‘s in the book “Tour of Duty,” from which Cambodia disappears. It‘s a terrible libel and a lie.

BUCHANAN: All right, now, how do you answer this, John? People say, the reason these fellows are coming out now, the 60 of them, John O‘Neill is coming back, and John Kerry is close to being president of the United States, and their bitterness is not over the fact that John Kerry served honorably and bravely and heroically in Vietnam, but when he came home, he slandered and defecated upon their service by calling them a bunch of war criminals, Genghis Khan, rapists, murderers, and they are understandably bitter and they are understandably angry, but that does not justify them making these charges about what he did do honorably?

O‘NEILL: The truth of it is, Pat, first, without question, the people in our unit are appalled at John Kerry‘s war crimes charges, which he has now claiming were a bit exaggerated and a lie.
They struck at the heart of everyone in our unit living and dead. It‘s something that none of us will ever forget. And they were repeated in his book, “Tour of Duty.” It is also true that his service in Vietnam was wildly exaggerated. Pat, that coronation where he behaved like a peacock at the Democratic Controversy, it made people physically ill in our unit.
There is a certain truth in the world. To claim that the guys who saved the 3 boat fled and that he came back is a total perversion of the truth. You can imagine what the people that actually stayed and could have been shot think about that, and their families. And so, this is a guy that treats the truth very casually.

BUCHANAN: OK, hold on, John O‘Neill.
If you would like to read more of John O‘Neill‘s best-selling book, which has knocked Bill Clinton‘s right off the top best-seller list, it‘s called “Unfit For Command.” Just log on to Joe.MSNBC.com. We have got an exclusive excerpt on there for you to read. So check it out.
Stay tuned for more with John O‘Neill when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY comes back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BUCHANAN: Did John Kerry get a Silver Star for shooting a wounded Viet Cong in the back? That‘s what John O‘Neill and his men say. We‘re going to ask him about that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BUCHANAN: We‘re back with John O‘Neill, author of “Unfit For Command,” a new book that says John Kerry has repeatedly lied about his service in Vietnam.
Let‘s take up—John O‘Neill, if you would, you took over the swift boat from John Kerry. I guess it‘s swift boat PCF-94, is it not?

O‘NEILL: That‘s true. He was there for about a month. He was in Vietnam, of course, other than in training, for about 3 months. I was there for a year. And I was on that boat for about nine or 10 months.

BUCHANAN: All right, he not only won 3 Purple Hearts and the Bronze Star for saving Rassmann, who is his friend now and his principal supporter. He got a Silver Star, which is I think the third highest decoration in the United States military, for charging I guess into a Viet Cong ambush, pointing his boat to the beach, getting off, taking an M-16 and killing an enemy soldier and retrieving a rocket-proposed grenade. Is that correct?

O‘NEILL: He represented, if read the citation, that he had charged, Pat, into a numerically superior force under intense enemy fire.
The actual facts, when you investigate them, are that these he took his gunboat, heavily armored gunboat, with 30 troops on board. They were faced by one adversary, a Viet Cong. The Viet Cong was wounded in the legs. He sought to escape and Kerry dispatched him, shot him in the back. I don‘t blame there was anything wrong with Kerry shooting him in the back. The Viet Cong was not trying to surrender. But this is not the stuff that medals are of, Pat.
And background materials provided to the Navy, which caused it to issue in two days a Silver Star without any witness statements, these materials were wrong and the Navy never would have issued a Silver Star had it known the actual facts.

BUCHANAN: Let me interrupt you right there.
Look, now, I can see how an individual can get a Purple Heart. One Purple Heart, he got a scratch. He wasn‘t bleeding that much and maybe it came back from the rock and cut his arm and it wasn‘t enemy fire. But we have got five medals here. And this is a tremendously high decoration. Don‘t you have to have witnesses before you get a Silver Star? Don‘t you have testimony from colleagues and comrades who were in battle saying, this was the guy that led us, this was the guy that did it, this was Kerry jumping off that boat, point man, running into the jungle after this character?

O‘NEILL: Exactly, Pat. That is a wonderful point.
The Silver Star is supposed to require three eyewitness statements and a long certification process. Kerry‘s is the only Silver Star that we know about where there are no witness statements. There is no certification process. It is simply granted two days after the supposed incident. All other records that would support it are missing.
(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: Well, it can‘t be Kerry alone that is responsible. If this is a fraud, you have got to have higher officers who participated in the fraud, don‘t you?

O‘NEILL: No. They believed what Kerry told them.
That may sound naive, but we were in combat. No one expected someone to game a system like this. He told the superior officers that he had charged into a bunkered complex against a large number of Vietnamese, North Vietnamese. And they believed him. That wasn‘t the truth.
There was one single guy and he shot him in the back. Those are the actual facts.

BUCHANAN: All right, let me ask you, if you have got nobody that
testified, formalized, or have an affidavit for his Silver Star, who are
the people that challenge that Silver Star? And are there people in the
boat with him who say now he should have gotten it? And what are the
numbers on both sides of this question

O‘NEILL: Well, I‘m certain the people on his boat who are in favor of him would say that he should have gotten it, although one of them is now dead. The fellow who wrote the citation is Captain Elliott. Captain Elliott indicates he would never have written Kerry up for the Silver Star had he known the actual facts of the single fleeing Viet Cong.

BUCHANAN: And he is the one—does Elliott say that Kerry alone came to him and gave him this rendition and he wrote it up on the basis of what Kerry said? Because you read up in I believe “The Boston Globe” that Elliott has recanted his statement that Kerry doesn‘t deserve it and returned to his original statement that he does.

O‘NEILL: Pat, “The Boston Globe” statement that he recanted his position that Kerry didn‘t deserve it is a complete falsehood.
Commander Elliott even executed another affidavit immediately and gave it to “The Boston Globe.” What “The Boston Globe” did is try and take the last little sentence out of his affidavit and confuse him. He has always had the position since learning the actual facts that Kerry never should have gotten that Silver Star. That is his position today. It has always been his position.
He issued a press statement within an hour of “The Boston Globe” story saying that the story was completely bogus and wrong.

BUCHANAN: Are you saying that “The Boston Globe” is part of this project, if you will, to ensure that Kerry runs in this campaign as a hero and that they are going after and knocking down any challenges to this myth, in your judgment?

O‘NEILL: The measures that have occurred here, Pat, are extreme. We have had three election complaints filed against our little outfit. Two huge law firms have been retrained to threaten suit against the statements we went on.
Almost each of us have individually threatened. The co-author of my book, who is simply an editor and not really any sort of co-author, there are stories in circulation about his e-mails where he made stupid statements in his e-mails. So every threat that can be brought to bear on us has been brought to bear.

BUCHANAN: All right, let me—John, let me ask you about John Kerry‘s testimony before Congress in 1971. Here‘s what he said.
He said that the troops, I guess, that he served with, they raped, cut off ears. They cut off heads. They taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals. They cut off limbs. They blew up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn. They shot cattle and dogs for funs. You poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.
A, is any of that true of the people you served with in the swift boats?

O‘NEILL: Not at all, Pat.
The truth is, the guys I served with were the greatest people I ever met in my life. They saved my life. They would have died rather than kill somebody that was innocent. And they did die, rather than kill—take a chance of wounding innocent people, several of them in sight of me. And so that is a total premeditated lie. It isn‘t simply a bit exaggerated or over the top, as Kerry said.
That‘s a deal that struck right at the heart of people living and dead. It was a malicious and cruel attempt to gain political publicity.

BUCHANAN: Let me say that—you know, I saw Kerry at this convention. I thought his speech was pretty good. And he used a line there he used very much in the primaries, which was, we may be a little older, we may be a little grayer, but we are still ready to fight for our country.
He seemed to be saying there that what we did in Vietnam was fighting for America, whereas, when he came back, he seemed to say it was a dirty, immoral war. How do you—I‘m going to ask—we have got a panel coming up to reconcile these two. How do you reconcile them?

O‘NEILL: They are 254 of us in our unit. And we are definitely older and we are definitely grayer. And you can find a list of all of us on SwiftVets.com.
And we range from vice admirals to seamen. And we are here to fight for our country, Pat. And we know about John Kerry. He would be a terrible commander in chief. You just couldn‘t tell the kids in the field that this was the new commander in chief. The American people can‘t do this. They just can‘t.

BUCHANAN: And, John O‘Neill, thank you very much for being here. I‘m sure we‘re going to be hearing a lot more about you and this book. And we appreciate you‘re coming on MSNBC and JOE SCARBOROUGH.
And, remember, folks, you can read an excerpt of “Unfit for Command” on our Web site at Joe.MSNBC.com.
We‘re going to be back with more SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, more of this debate.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BUCHANAN: We have been talking to swift boat commander John O‘Neill about his controversial new book, “Unfit For Command,” about John Kerry. And we‘re going to have a heated debate on that when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.
But, first, let‘s get the latest headlines from the MSNBC News Desk.

(NEWS BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all. Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

BUCHANAN: All right, let‘s bring in our panel, Kerry adviser Jeh Johnson, senior MSNBC political analyst Lawrence O‘Donnell, and Ted Sampley of Vietnam Veterans Against John Kerry.
Jeh Johnson, let me start with you, if I may.
Tell me first where John O‘Neill was precisely dead wrong in what he said.

JEH JOHNSON, KERRY CAMPAIGN ADVISER: Well, first, let‘s start with March 13, 1969. That‘s the Jim Rassmann incident.
Jim Rassmann is quoted in today‘s “Wall Street Journal.” He gives a detailed, first-hand account of what happened that day on the river. You had it exactly right, Pat, at the top of the hour, when you said none of the people who are in this book actually served with John Kerry on a boat who were there in the line of fire with John Kerry. They are all second-, third-, fourth-hand accounts by people 35 years later.

BUCHANAN: All right, but, Jeh, let me interrupt you there.
I mean, it is true if you are talking about people on the boat with John Kerry. But these boats were operating together and these fellows were right beside Kerry. They saw the action. And there are people who—who knew him, but there are also individuals who were right there when these incidents occurred and saw these incidents.
What I would like to know is, is John Kerry prepared to sit down with, say, a tough neutral interrogator like, let‘s say Russert on “Meet the Press” for an hour and answer each of these things and knock these dead?

O‘NEILL: John Kerry has talked about this in this election, in the 1996 election and I assume in elections past for the last 35 years.
What we need to focus on are what people like Jim Rassmann have to say in today‘s “Wall Street Journal.” Jim Rassmann, by the way, is a registered Republican.

BUCHANAN: I know that. And a lot of these fellows—some of these are registered Democrats.
What we‘ve got—and let me take this up with Larry O‘Donnell.
Larry, what we go got is, look, individuals, all of whom presumably served their country honorably, a lot of them are decorated. They come back. They have got Purple Hearts, Silver Stars, Bronze Stars, all of them. And you have got a vicious conflict going on here about what really happened. If you argue that John Kerry told the truth, on what grounds would you say these fellows are not telling truth?

LAWRENCE O‘DONNELL, MSNBC SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, we really don‘t know anything about them, Pat.
I mean, we have this group of Vietnam veterans. John Kerry is the target of everything we‘re talking about here. We know a tremendous amount about him. He has had a public career for over 30 years. And so today, we see John O‘Neill reemerging. And, by the way, Pat, I‘m wondering if you met him in 1971 when he was in the Oval Office with Richard Nixon planning his first criticism of John Kerry.
There is a great picture that MSNBC News has that I‘ve been looking at with Chuck Colson, President Nixon and John O‘Neill planning his debate then with John Kerry. And there is another pair of shoes in the frame, Pat. I can‘t tell if they are your shoes or not. I don‘t know.

BUCHANAN: They might have been. They might have been.
But let me say this. John O‘Neill has been consistent for 35 years.
(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: Hold it.
Kerry came back and said genocide went on, murder, rape, all this stuff. He accused Americans. He is the one that has backed away from that. And, quite frankly, that statement about him being in Cambodia seems to me, which he made as a senator, Larry, seems to me fraudulent on its face. How could he know who was shooting at him, whether they are Cambodians, Khmer Rouge, NVA, Viet Cong?
He said he was five miles inside Cambodia. There was a boat there to prevent anything that was going in. He has written later that he was on Christmas writing home at the time. He is the one that has had the conflicts. Whatever you said about Mr. O‘Neill, he has said the same thing ever since he came back.

O‘DONNELL: Well, like all the political analysts and commentators who have been discussing this, I have never been in combat or in a live-fire situation. So I have no idea how you tell where the bullets are coming from.
The question for John O‘Neill is what journalistic standards have you used to produce this big thick book? And, for example, you talked about George Elliott in the last segment with him. And you mentioned that George Elliott did retract his story or a portion of his story in “The Boston Globe.”
Well, you can go to George Elliott‘s actual evaluation of Lieutenant Kerry and you can read it from 1969. This is what he wrote. This is someone who John O‘Neill now wants to use against John Kerry. He wrote this, “In combat environment often requiring independent, decisive action, Lieutenant Kerry was unsurpassed.”
He goes on to say that “Lieutenant Kerry emerges as the acknowledged leader in his peer group,” talks about him learning the Vietnamese language. This person who wrote this report...
(CROSSTALK)

O‘DONNELL: You have to wonder, what are the journalistic standards that take someone from this report to what they are saying now?
(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: OK, you got it. Let me respond to that.
What you have to ask here is, who provided Mr. Elliott or Commander Elliott with this, who other than John Kerry? Secondly, you mentioned peer group. Why are all the peers who were John Kerry‘s men, young lieutenants, J.G.s, almost to a man, they are violently opposed to this guy?

TED SAMPLEY, VIETNAM VETERANS AGAINST JOHN KERRY: Can I make a point here?

O‘DONNELL: I just ask you Pat. I ask you, Pat, and I ask the audience, which form of evidence, journalistic evidence, do you want to use, a report written in December of 1969 by one of his commanding officers who knew John Kerry or what people are saying 33 years later in the heat of a political battle?

BUCHANAN: OK. All right.
Let‘s bring—Ted Sampley, go ahead.

SAMPLEY: Well, as far as journalistic standards, all you have got is go do is go back to the year 2000 to “The Boston Globe.” And you will find that Kerry‘s crew—this is when the first issue of Kerry committing a war crime by shooting a Viet Cong that had already been hit by an M-60 machine gun and then twin 50s, .50-calibers—his crew told a different story back then. And now they have changed it to fit the way Kerry wants the story go. So that‘s journalistic standards. Go there.


BUCHANAN: What did they say?
(CROSSTALK)

O‘DONNELL: Ted, after you were convicted of assault and battery on a Senator McCain staffer and you said that Senator McCain was a member of the KGB, is there anything about that that you would like to retract to show us what standards you want to use today?

SAMPLEY: If you would like to invite me on this show to talk about
John McCain, let‘s do it. I can back everything I say about
(CROSSTALK)

O‘DONNELL: We have to talk about you. When you come forward to criticize someone else, we then have to talk about you.
(CROSSTALK)

O‘DONNELL: You said John McCain was brainwashed and is a “Manchurian Candidate” and is an agent of another government. That‘s who we now have. That‘s who we are sharing this broadcast with right now. You‘ve said those things, haven‘t you?

SAMPLEY: Let‘s ask about John Kerry in Kansas in 1971 when he participated—or his organization participated in a plot or discussion of a plot to kill U.S. senators. That was in the past.
(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: Ted Sampley, I am familiar with that because I have read and studied that.
(CROSSTALK)

SAMPLEY: Why did that disappear?

BUCHANAN: Well, I don‘t know why it disappeared, quite frankly. And
what everybody who was there said that Kerry was a moderate in that group
and

SAMPLEY: He was the leader. He was the leader and a primary spokesman of Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

BUCHANAN: I know he was a leader in that group. But they said there were some nutballs in there. And this guy Campbell (ph) was one of them, talking about assassinations. And if Kerry had done anything, he would have said, no, don‘t do it. And Kerry resigned from the executive committee of that organization at that convention, my guess is because he probably heard this talk.
(CROSSTALK)

SAMPLEY: Did he go to the FBI and talk about this conspiracy? And if he did not, did he violate the law?

BUCHANAN: I think that‘s a good question.
Larry?

O‘DONNELL: Listen, Pat, this has been discussed for months.
And the question was, exactly when did John Kerry leave Vietnam Veterans Against the War? Was it a couple of months before that meeting? Was it right after that meeting? Was he present?

SAMPLEY: The FBI says he was there.
(CROSSTALK)

O‘DONNELL: That‘s right. There is an FBI report that indicates he was there. There‘s also—every FBI report says that John Kerry represented absolutely no threat to the United States of America and was the voice of reason in every meeting he was ever in.
(CROSSTALK)

BUCHANAN: All right, let me get Jeh Johnson in here.
I got a final question for you, Jeh. It‘s this.

JOHNSON: Yes.

BUCHANAN: John Kerry said at the convention—and, again, I thought it was a compelling speech—we‘re a little older, a little grayer, but we still know how to fight for our country.
If he was fighting for his country in Vietnam, why did he come home, go to Paris, meet with Madame Binh, who was a representative of the Viet Cong, who were the people killing his comrades in Vietnam? Why did he go meet with the enemy?

JOHNSON: Well, you have to remember that 1971 was a defining moment for an entire generation. John Kerry said what he thought about the war in Vietnam. He went a number of places to say that.
He had the courage to go fight this war. He left Yale in 1966 with a lot of choices and chose to put his life on the line for his country and his crewmates. He was there, unlike a lot of other people who are now second-guessing this. He was there in the line of fire. Bill Clinton pointed out that he, the vice president and the president all avoided service in Vietnam.
Not John Kerry. He was there. And he was there firsthand, came back and I think is entitled to talk about what he saw in Vietnam and is entitled to be critical of the war effort in Vietnam, in light of what he did.

BUCHANAN: OK, Jeh Johnson, we‘re going to leave you with the last word there, although I don‘t think it is going to be the last word in this debate.
_________________
.
one of..... We The People

[kate]

JOHN ONEILL on
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0408/12/cf.00.html

CNN CROSSFIRE
Did John Kerry Misrepresent Vietnam Record?
Aired August 12, 2004 - 16:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Welcome to CROSSFIRE. Coming up, a debate on the controversial new book about John Kerry's service in Vietnam.

~snip to ONeill interview

NOVAK: John Kerry makes a lot out of his four months spent in Vietnam. There are a lot of questions about just what he did while he was there. The book "Unfit for Command" examines Kerry's war record. The author joins us next to tell us the truth about Lieutenant jg. Kerry.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NOVAK: Among the real patriots to rise to the surface this election year may very well be the guys who stuck their necks out to tell the true story behind John Kerry's acts of so-called heroism in Vietnam. In his book, "Unfit for Command," former swift boat commander John O'Neill shares his and others' versions of events that led to Kerry's Silver Star and three Purple Hearts, and they are very different from the story perpetrated by the Democratic presidential candidate.

Joining us in the CROSSFIRE, former White House counsel and Kerry adviser, Lanny Davis. And John O'Neill, co-author of "Unfit for Command."

JAMES CARVILLE: Mr. O'Neill, you have been slurred by the Kerry- Edwards campaign. They sent me a thing. I got on their stationary right here, and I can't believe that they put their name on something like this, because they make accusations against you that I want to give you a chance to refute, because they just can't be true. They say you never met John Kerry in Vietnam. They say in your book, they actually say you never spoke to anyone on the two boats when he was awarded three Purple Hearts, a Silver Star and a Bronze Star. Not -- and they actually say for 35 years after -- you never said anything until he won the Democratic presidential nomination about this. Now, I'm -- this can't be true, America. I want to give you every opportunity to tell us when you saw John Kerry in Vietnam, that led you to do this? JOHN O'NEILL, AUTHOR, "UNFIT FOR COMMAND": If you let me, I'll be happy, and you're right, it's not true.

CARVILLE: It's not?

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Let him answer. James, you asked him the question...

(CROSSTALK)

O'NEILL: I'm the guy that took over John Kerry's boat in Vietnam, PCF94. There are 60 people of the people that were in our unit who contributed to this deal, including most of the officers who served with John Kerry no further away than that camera is from me right now. I met and debated John Kerry in 1971. I didn't wait for 35 years.

CARVILLE: Did you wait -- did you meet him in Vietnam?

O'NEILL: No.

CARVILLE: You mean you never met him in Vietnam?

O'NEILL: No.

CARVILLE: Come on. You're writing a book on the -- oh, come on, man.

O'NEILL: He was only there three months, James.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Let me -- let me...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: Let me show you something else, let me show you something else, you've been caught. This is a book written by John O'Neill and Jerome Corsi. And if you can judge a book by its cover, it says, this stunning new book, John O'Neill and his co-author, Dr. Jerome Corsi.

Then you've got Dr. Jerome Corsi, this distinguished American's picture right here. In the book it says you and Corsi have been friends for 30 years. Jerome Corsi has called Hillary Clinton a fat hog and a lesbo. Jerome Corsi has called Tim Russert, Peter Jennings and Katie Couric communists.

And I want to be sure we have it in context, this is what he said about the Catholic Church: "So this is what the last days of the Catholic Church are going to look like, buggering boys, undermining the moral base and lawyers rip the gold off the Vatican altars. We may get one more pope when this senile one dies, but that's probably about it."

Now, I can judge a book...

JOHN O'NEILL, CO-AUTHOR, "UNFIT FOR COMMAND": Wait, do you want a monologue or do you want a response? I can see why you don't want a response.

CARVILLE: Go ahead.

O'NEILL: Because most -- a good deal of what you're saying is not the truth.

CARVILLE: Oh, it's not?

O'NEILL: With respect to my involvement with John Kerry, there are more than 60 people that served with John Kerry that contributed to this book. There are 250...

CARVILLE: I'm talking about Corsi...

O'NEILL: Just a second here.

CARVILLE: I didn't ask you about that.

NOVAK: Let him answer.

CARVILLE: He won't answer the question because he can't. He comes on here (UNINTELLIGIBLE) a presidential candidate, he can't answer the question. What about Mr. Corsi? What about Corsi, Mr. O'Neill, answer for your co-author and your friend of 30 years?

O'NEILL: I understand why you're screaming, you're screaming...

CARVILLE: I want you to answer for it.

O'NEILL: You're screaming because you can't afford the truth, that's why you're screaming...

CARVILLE: You can't afford -- and you can't answer for Corsi. You never met John Kerry. You never met him. I've got no use for this man.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Lanny Davis...

CARVILLE: Take over, Lanny. Man can't answer a question.

(LAUGHTER)

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

ROBERT NOVAK, CO-HOST: Lanny -- Lanny Davis...

CARVILLE: Take over, Lanny. The man can't answer a question.

NOVAK: If you will shut up, I will ask him a question.

CARVILLE: Answer a question. The man can't answer a question.

(CROSSTALK)

A man can't answer a question when you shout me down.

CARVILLE: You never met

(CROSSTALK)


JOHN O'NEILL, SWIFT BOAT VETERANS FOR TRUTH: And you shouted me down because you don't want to hear the answer. You can't survive the answers.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: ... about Corsi? How long have you known Corsi? How long have you known Corsi?

O'NEILL: You cannot survive the questions in this book.

(CROSSTALK)

O'NEILL: Not one of them.

(CROSSTALK)

LANNY DAVIS, FORMER WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL: You just heard Mr. O'Neill.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I'm going to ask you a question, Mr. Davis.

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: ... refusing to answer these questions.

NOVAK: I'm going to ask you a question.

The whole answer to this book -- I've seen you shouting on other shows. I've seen James shouting disgracefully. And this is James' most disgraceful performance on this show.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: And I say that to my co-host.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Just a minute. Just a minute, Mr. Davis.

DAVIS: Go ahead. Go ahead.

NOVAK: And you shout and you yell because you cannot answer the allegations in this book.

Now, I want to ask you a question. Why are you, a big-time Washington lawyer, going from television station to television station to answer these allegations, instead of the swift boat veterans who appeared at the Democratic Convention in Boston?

DAVIS: Well, they are answering.

In fact, Jim Rassmann wrote a column in "The Wall Street Journal." And Mr. O'Neill is saying that Mr. Rassmann is lying. On page 91 of his book, he says that Mr. Rassmann did not receive -- and I'm quoting directly -- "any hostile fire."

I'm not shouting. I'm answering your questions, that Mr. Rassmann is either telling the truth or Mr. O'Neill is telling the truth. And I believe that Mr. Rassmann is.

And let me tell you one other fact that you cannot dispute. And I invite Mr. O'Neill to tell me whether this is a fact. Every man on the three boats -- on the two boats that were involved in three Purple Hearts, one Silver Star and one Bronze Star, every man supports John Kerry's version.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

DAVIS: And -- and every man -- tell me if this is untrue.

NOVAK: Let him respond. Let him respond to that.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Wait a minute. Let him respond to that.

DAVIS: And every single person, every single person in the numbers that you quote was not on those boats during the incidents that led to the stars. Yes or no?

O'NEILL: No. It's lie. It's a total lie.

DAVIS: Name me a man who was on the boats. Name me a man who was on the boats.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Let him answer, Lanny, please.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Let him answer.

O'NEILL: This is the shout-down, because they can't afford the truth. In the first Purple Heart incident, Lieutenant William Schachte, now a rear admiral in the United States Navy, was on the small whaler with Kerry. He witnessed Kerry with an M-79 fire it and wound himself. He was directly on the boat. He's right here. It was small whaler. And he was right there. And he said -- you know what he said? John, you could have put our eyes out.

They then claimed a Purple Heart for it. In the third incident

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Just a second.

O'NEILL: In the third...

DAVIS: That was a false statement.

O'NEILL: Can I finish? Do you want the complete answer?

NOVAK: Let him finish.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: He's lying. Let the man tell you how he's lying.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: He has got to have a chance.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: We had Carville going crazy. I want him to have a chance.

(CROSSTALK)

O'NEILL: Do you want to talk or just shout?

NOVAK: Let him have a chance.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Wait a minute, Lanny. Let him have a chance.

O'NEILL: Lanny, I know why you don't want me to talk. And I know why you don't want any of our guys to talk.

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: Were there three men on that whaler or four men?

O'NEILL: There were at least three and possibly four men on the whaler.

DAVIS: Possibly. You just said yes.

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: Schachte was not on that boat. What he said was false. (CROSSTALK)

O'NEILL: This is the problem

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: More with our guests on whether John Kerry is unfit for command right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARVILLE: Our guests are John O'Neill, co-author of the book "Unfit For Command," and Lanny Davis, adviser to the Democratic presidential candidate, Senator John Kerry.

Did you meet John Kerry in Vietnam?

O'NEILL: No. I took over John Kerry's boat when he left.

CARVILLE: Appreciate it.

O'NEILL: May I finish?

CARVILLE: No. It's "Rapid Fire."

(CROSSTALK)

O'NEILL: There's 60 people that met him. Now, listen, James.

DAVIS: Were they on his boat?

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: Were the 60 people on his boat, just yes or no?

O'NEILL: Oh, sure, some of them definitely were.

NOVAK: Why don't you let him finish a sentence, Lanny?

DAVIS: Which one?

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: What do you think, you're in court?

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Let him answer a question.

(APPLAUSE)

DAVIS: Bob, the answer -- the only question I'm asking, was anybody -- is anybody -- and I'll do it respectfully and quietly. Was anybody on the boat during the three incidents that led to the Purple Hearts cited in your book? Name one person.

O'NEILL: I gave you, first of all, Lieutenant William Schachte, now an admiral. See, the theory of these guys...

DAVIS: And did you say possibly or definitely? Because that's false. You made a false statement.

(CROSSTALK)

O'NEILL: Their problem is, they have got to get 60 people -- claim that all 60 people are liars. And that's why the only response is to shout me down. That's why they're afraid of the truth.

DAVIS: Name another one.

O'NEILL: And that's why there are the personal attacks. They can't live with the truth.

DAVIS: Name one other one.

O'NEILL: They think people are stupid.

CARVILLE: What personal attack did I make on you?

DAVIS: Name one other one.

O'NEILL: Oh, you made a heinous attack on

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: I want to ask you a question.

O'NEILL: Go ahead.

NOVAK: You've been accused of being a Republican shill. Do you have any connection with the Republican Party?

O'NEILL: I've had no serious involvement in politics of any kind in over 32 years. Every Kerry campaign, people have called me, whether they're Democrats or Republicans, to get involved in the campaign. I've always refused. I got involved here because it's commander in chief.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Why would all these people, decorated veterans, some of them very senior officers, interrupt their lives to make this testimony against John Kerry?

DAVIS: May I answer your question?

NOVAK: No, I'm asking him a question.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You ask him the questions, Bob. You know what? You don't want him, because you don't want the truth. You don't want the truth.

(APPLAUSE)

DAVIS: Can I answer your question?

CARVILLE: The truth is, this man never met John Kerry.

NOVAK: You just yelled.

DAVIS: Can I answer your question?

NOVAK: No, I think

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: They don't want the truth. He's not interested in the truth.

NOVAK: We're out of time.

(CROSSTALK)

DAVIS: The reason is that they weren't on the boat. They were observers. And their perceptions could be wrong. Everyone who was on the boat, everyone, supports John Kerry's

(CROSSTALK)

O'NEILL: That's not true either.

DAVIS: Every single one. That's a fact.

CARVILLE: All right.

NOVAK: How about gunner's mate Gardner?

DAVIS: Gunner's mate Gardner was not on the boat when the three Purple Hearts occurred. You don't know the facts, Bob.

NOVAK: He was behind...

DAVIS: He was on PCF 44, not PCF 94. You don't know the facts. You need to know the truth.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: All right, Mr. O'Neill.

O'NEILL: Yes. With respect to -- there's a real reason -- there's a reason why we were shouted down.

And the reason we were shouted down, we deserve something better. There were 60 winners of the Purple Heart that contributed to this book. And they came forward. None of us are making a dime off of it.

CARVILLE: Right.

O'NEILL: They came forward because it's really important for the country. That's the only reason.

CARVILLE: He never met John Kerry in Vietnam or anybody on the boat.

NOVAK: John O'Neill, thank you very much.

Lanny Davis, thank you.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: From the left, I'm James Carville. That's it for CROSSFIRE.

NOVAK: From the right, I'm Robert Novak. Join us again next time for another edition of CROSSFIRE.
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[kate]

Steve Gardner on Hugh Hewitt radio show August 10
http://hughhewitt.com/index.htm#%20postid766
August 10, 2004
Posted at 6:10 PM, Pacific

I interviewed Steve Gardner today. He served two tours in Vietnam, including two months and two weeks of John Kerry's swift boat service--on John Kerry's swift boat-- from November 1968 through January 1969:

HH: Mr. Gardner, welcome to the Hugh Hewittt Show, it is an honor to talk to you.

SG: I am glad to be here Hugh.

HH: Thanks for your service.

SG: Thank you again, I really appreciate you're allowing me to come aboard.

HH: Now let me start with some basics. I said you served two tours in Vietnam. Can you tell me what years those were?

SG: 1966 to 1967 and then in 1968 and 1969, when I served with Kerry.

HH: What months did you serve with Senator Kerry?

SG: November through January. Here's what I did. I served two months and two weeks of his four month, 12 day tour.

HH: Alright. Why did you leave off in january. What happened in January?

SG: That was my rotation time.

HH: OK. When you were on the boat, did you ever go into Cambodian waters?

SG: Absolutely not. That was a physical impossibility to go inside Cambodian waters.

HH; Why?

SG: They had four or five, at all times, boats, plus they had it wired with wire, they had concrete pylons down so that thee only time they could get through it was at high tide, and that was just so the sampans and the people that trafficked back and forth could get through.

HH: Now you served with him on Christmas Eve 1968, correct?

SG: That is correct.

HH: What did you do on Christmas Eve 1968?

SG: Well, I damn sure wasn't in Cambodia, I'll tell you that.

HH: (Laughter) Do you remember?

SG: We were basically just down in the lower part of the Sa Dec. just patrolling.

HH: All right. Were you looking for Bob Hope that night?

SG: No, (laughter) this was just how bad this guy is. People
get a whiff of this and get a hold of it. Because you are just getting the edge of what drives John Kerry.

HH: What is that Steve Gardner?

SG: He is an opportunist, number one. But he is a self-seeking opportunist who used the laws that were designed to help the honest men who were over there in Vietnam who had gotten wounded three times to get them back out of it. He knew the rules well, and he used that to get out of there early.

HH: Last night on the Daily Show on Comedy Central, Jon Stewart, the host, said this about the book that is coming about by John O'Neill: There are powerful indictments, or rather it would be had any of those guys served on Kerry's boat,. By saying 'with him' they mean they were in Vietnam at the same time. Kind of the same way Snoopy served with the Red Baron. How do you respond to that?

SG: Well, on any movement we would do, we are talking four or five boats going in on an engagement, we were always within 50 or 75 yards of each other. And to be perfectly honest about it, if you were to look at an overview, if your were looking for an overview of a situation, you were better off being on another boat and looking at the rest of the other boats.

HH: OK, well put. Now, Steve Gardner, John Kerry has also been discovered to have been telling a story that he took a CIA man at least one CIA man into Cambodia and that he kept his hat. When you were on the boat with John Kerry, for your two months and two weeks of the tour that he served, did you ever have a CIA man on board?

SG: Number one, no.

HH: Did you ever take anyone to Cambodia and drop them off?

SG: Categorically no.

HH: Did you get near Cambodia and drop anybody off?

SG: The closest we can get to Cambodia, and that's a long swim, is 50 miles.

HH: Alright. Let me ask you about other people on the boat. Could John Kerry have just misunderstood someone on the boat was CIA when it wasn't CIA? Did you ever have any strangers on the boat?

SG: Nope. We always would have an interpreter, or something like that with us, or we would take others and take them in to areas in the Mekong Delta where they would be doing surveillance, but never did we have anybody that we would take close or could take close to Cambodia.

HH: Is it possible that you would drop them off a few miles away from Cambodia and they would walk in?''

SG: Fifty miles away is a long walk, let me tell you.

HH: If such a mission had been undertaken, would it have been undertaken by a swift boat?

SG: Nope.

HH: What kind of boat would it have been undertaken by?

SG: If something was going to be done, it would have had to have been done by a PBR.

HH: What's a PBR?

SG: That's one of the smaller boats that they used in Vietnam, that were water driven motors.

HH: When you read these stories about John Kerry and his CIA agents, how do you react? Does he believe it himself, do you think?

SG: No. It is laughable. John Kerry, number one, we were never, we were never made privy to anything. Even if that were so, even if there was some reason to believe that that had transpired, we would not have been made privy to that.

HH: You mean that John Kerry wouldn't have known who was on the boat?

SG: Number one, no. That would have been such a top secret operation, and a positioning, that that guy would have killed himself before he told anybody he was going to Cambodia. It didn't happen. Like I said, to get into Cambodia, you were over 50 miles away from the border.

HH: Is that the closest you think you came, 50 miles?

SG: I know it is, categorically. You couldn't go any farther.

HH: Could it have happened once you left the boat?

SG: No, you still couldn't get through that same creek.

HH: Will any of the guys who have endorsed John Kerry, who served on the boat with you, will they back him up on the CIA agent story, or the Christmas Eve story?

SG: Well they can't now.

HH; Why?

SG: Well they all know that that didn't transpire. John Kerry has already said that from what I understand.

HH: What he said, eh, what his staff has been saying is that they think he said he was close to Cambodia, but not in it, but in 1986 he stood on the floor of the Senate and said he was in Cambodia.

SG: That's correct, and that's an absolute categorical lie.
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