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Redview
Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 88
Location: indiana
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 Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:14 am Post subject: clear up number of medals |
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I know he got the silver and bronze star, and
3 purple hearts.
Did he apply for others he did not recieve?
I am unclear on this. |
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DADESID
Seaman
Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 157
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:28 am Post subject: Re: clear up number of medals |
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| Redview wrote: | I know he got the silver and bronze star, and
3 purple hearts.
Did he apply for others he did not recieve?
I am unclear on this. |
Not sure what you mean here.
Thousands of veterans earned medals for bravery in Vietnam. Some of those were actually awarded.
What does the "apply for" bit mean.... I'm unclear on this. |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: clear up number of medals |
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| Redview wrote: | I know he got the silver and bronze star, and
3 purple hearts.
Did he apply for others he did not recieve?
I am unclear on this. |
I think 'applying' is something that was unusual, if not for Kerry. I believe the commanding officer put in for any citation, which might not even be known to a man until even his return home, as I've read some testimonies.
I think there was confusion over the Lehman citations. Kerry has two early citations for the same Silver Star, and another from the Reagan era for the same medal. And he has one from the time, and another from the Reagan era for the Bronze Star. I think people suspected that Kerry applied for replacements, that he really had thrown his medals away. He was opposed to medals before he was for them, as it were. |
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azzuro
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 1:54 pm Post subject: 4 bronze stars??? |
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Hello,
Browsing Mr. Kerry's military documents at his web site, I had the same question.
Mr. Kerry, I assume, corrected his ribbons and medals record on March 12, 2001:
Original Item 24 on DD Form 214 reads:
National Defense service Bronze star with Combat "V" Combat Action Ribbon
Vietnam Service Silver Star with Combat "V"
Vietnam Campaign Purple Heart (3 Awards)
Item 24 on DD Form 215 (Correction to DD Form 214) dated "20010312" read:
Presidential Unit Citation Ribbon
Navy Unit Citation Ribbon
Republic of Vietnam MUC Gallantry Cross Medal Color with Palm
Republic of Vietnam MUC Civil Action Medal Color with Palm
Delete: Vietnam Service Medal
Add: Vietnam Service Medal with 4 bronze stars
Does this make final number of Silver medal "0" and Bronze medal "5"?
Azzuro |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 2:49 pm Post subject: |
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No, the citations were not re-written to get replacements for the medals/ribbons he threw away.
The citations were re-written to strengthen the language and make Kerry seem better than the first citations sounded and (in the case of the Silver Star) to actually add non-existent enemy forces.
You don't need a new citation to get another copy of a thrown-away medal. When the notation is made in your service jacket that you have been awarded a medal or ribbon, you are entitled to purchase it at the uniform shop - with a few exceptions. (CMH)
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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azzuro
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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"Delete: Vietnam Service Medal
Add: Vietnam Service Medal with 4 bronze stars"
After posted, I found "4 bronze stars" are not "bronze dmedals". Sorry for layperson's question. Then I found following on a web site:
c. Soldiers receiving the Vietnam Service Medal are authorized to wear a bronze star to indicate each campaign. There are 17 designated campaigns during the period of 15 March 1962 through 28 January 1973. Units which receive campaign credit for any of the campaigns would display a streamer with inscription as shown on the unit's lineage and honors. The designated campaigns are:
Vietnam Advisory 1962-1965
Vietnam Defense 1965
Vietnam Counteroffensive 1965-1966
Vietnam Phase II 1966 - 1967
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase III 1967-1968
Tet Counteroffensive 1968
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase IV 1968
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase V 1968
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase VI 1968-1969
Tet 69 Counteroffensive 1969
Vietnam Summer-Fall 1969
Vietnam Winter-Spring 1970
Sanctuary Counteroffensive 1970
Vietnam Counteroffensive Phase VII 1970-1971
Consolidation I 1971
Consolidation II 1971-1972
Vietnam Cease-Fire 1972-1973
If that is the case, Is Mr. Kerry claiming that he participated 4 campaigns amoung the list during the 4 months on the correction form?
Sorry in advance if this is another layperson's question.
Azzuro |
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Navy_Navy_Navy
Admin
Joined: 07 May 2004
Posts: 5777
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| Posted: Sun Aug 15, 2004 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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"Layman's" questions are fine, azzuro. I'm pretty much a neophyte when it comes to awards.
But I think your take on it is correct - he claimed bronze ribbon devices for four of those awardable periods - two of which I believe are related to his one WESTPAC aboard the USS Gridley.
_________________
~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:01 am Post subject: |
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| Navy_Navy_Navy wrote: | No, the citations were not re-written to get replacements for the medals/ribbons he threw away.
The citations were re-written to strengthen the language and make Kerry seem better than the first citations sounded and (in the case of the Silver Star) to actually add non-existent enemy forces.
You don't need a new citation to get another copy of a thrown-away medal. When the notation is made in your service jacket that you have been awarded a medal or ribbon, you are entitled to purchase it at the uniform shop - with a few exceptions. (CMH) |
I had been told that the second Silver Star citation was written according to some sort of 'form', that they wanted the info on one sheet of paper, not two. I told the guy who suggested that it didn't make sense. But.
The two signed by Lehman, from the 1980s, might suggest replacement medals - perhaps? He's not amending the Silver Star or Bronze Star. He got the 'combat V', originally, correct?
Did Kerry, himself, write the text of the Lehman citations? Does anyone know? Does anyone know what paperwork ought to exist for adding a new description of the action for each? How did the Lehman citations come about, how did it get into Kerry's file, who put it there, etc?
These were some of the early questions, last month, and before. They might seem trivial, now, what with all that's come out. But I'm still not clear on the whole Lehman citation business. |
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Me#1You#10
Site Admin
Joined: 06 May 2004
Posts: 6503
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:52 am Post subject: |
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| Ya know, I'm almost as interested in just how deep into this the media bloodhounds are gonna go once they're on the hunt as I am in seeing Kerry exposed. It would seem highly unlikely that some intrepid reporter won't take a long hard look at the evolution of the changes in Kerry's awards. |
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azzuro
Seaman Recruit
Joined: 15 Aug 2004
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:02 am Post subject: Thank you. |
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To navy_navy_navy
Thank you for answering questions.
The form caught my attention, as it looked a bit weird to come back after 30 years (?) to correct details of ribbons and medals.
I appreciate efforts and courage of your people to speak up. I am looking forward to receiving the book from Amazon and I had made a small donation.
Azzuro |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:17 am Post subject: |
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Just caught this one too;
| Quote: | Original Item 24 on DD Form 214 reads:
National Defense service Bronze star with Combat "V" Combat Action Ribbon
Vietnam Service Silver Star with Combat "V"
Vietnam Campaign Purple Heart (3 Awards) |
Maybe the Navy did it different, but in the Army, the National Defense Ribbon was looked upon as a KP badge, since all you needed to do was serve during a specific time period.
What I notice, though, is that it sys he had "service bronze star," indicating a second award. What I found concerning this is;
| Quote: | It is awarded for honorable active military service as a member of the Armed Forces of the United States including the Coast Guard, between June 27, 1950 and July 27, 1954, (Korean War Period), between January 1, 1961 and August 14, 1974, (Vietnam War Period), between 2 August 1990 to 30 November 1995 (Operations DESERT SHIELD/STORM Period), and currently from 11 September 2001 to a date to be determined (Terrorism Attacks on the US).
Authorized Device: Service Star, Service members who earned the medal during the first qualifying period and who again became entitled to the medal wear a bronze star on the ribbon to denote the second award of the medal. |
When could he have gotten the first award to be entitled to wear a Bronze Service star? Surely, he wasn't old enough to have been in the Korean War, the only time prior to Vietnam it was awarded?
And, a "V" also? From what I saw, the "V" isn't even an authorized device to be worn on the national Defense Service Ribbon.
I'd love to see the orders and citations for that.
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Clark County Conservative |
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Scott
Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 1603
Location: Massachusetts
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:21 am Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: | | And, a "V" also? From what I saw, the "V" isn't even an authorized device to be worn on the national Defense Service Ribbon. |
Wait a minute, Lew,
Are we talking "shades of Adm. Boorda" here?
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Bye bye, Boston Straggler! |
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carpro
Admin
Joined: 10 May 2004
Posts: 1176
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:33 am Post subject: |
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| LewWaters wrote: | Just caught this one too;
| Quote: | Original Item 24 on DD Form 214 reads:
National Defense service Bronze star with Combat "V" Combat Action Ribbon
Vietnam Service Silver Star with Combat "V"
Vietnam Campaign Purple Heart (3 Awards) |
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wait a minute guys...I read it this way:
National Defense service
Bronze Star w/V
Combat action Ribbon
Vietnam Service
Silver Star w/V (I don't believe this on is possible...No V available on SS)
Vietnam Campaign
Purple Heart (3 awards)
_________________
"If he believes his 1971 indictment of his country and his fellow veterans was true, then he couldn't possibly be proud of his Vietnam service." |
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LewWaters
Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004
Posts: 4042
Location: Washington State
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 3:36 am Post subject: |
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Carpo, that would make more sense than a "V" on the National Defense Ribbon. Perhaps someone failed to include a comma?
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Clark County Conservative |
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sevry
Commander
Joined: 13 Aug 2004
Posts: 326
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:46 am Post subject: |
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| carpro wrote: | | LewWaters wrote: | Just caught this one too;
| Quote: | Original Item 24 on DD Form 214 reads:
National Defense service Bronze star with Combat "V" Combat Action Ribbon
Vietnam Service Silver Star with Combat "V"
Vietnam Campaign Purple Heart (3 Awards) |
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This was originally raised on FR, some time ago. I had asked about these multiple citations for the same award, after someone else pointed it out. And somebody defending Kerry suggested the DD 215, as some kind of amendation, had something to do with it. Instead, it's requesting the 4 campaign stars, and has nothing to do with Kerry's Silver and Bronze Stars. So the Lehman citations remained a mystery.
But the original citation for the Bronze Star mentions a 'combat V'. The 2-page citation with the same Zumwalt stamp to "reservist" Kerry for the Silver Star does not. I don't know why it would be listed that way on the DD 214. The Lehman citation for the Bronze Star refers to a "combat distinguishing device". I had assumed that meant the 'combat V'. But the existence of the Lehman citations still remains a mystery, to me. It would appear that Kerry put in for replacement medals. Charlie Gibson remarked, back when, that he remember Kerry throwing medals over the fence. Gibson was there, that day. Whether they were Kerry's, or not, it's likely they were his. Since he was able to produce medals, later, it would seem, assuming the rest, that he put in for replacements, unless there were an easier way to get these, before the days of ebay. If additional citations did not have to be written up and filed, then it adds another question. Maybe someone, here, has more information about this. |
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