SwiftVets.com

[sore loser]

The only other thing I remember about Mombassa that I found totally remarkable was how clean the water was. When we'd leave or enter most ports, including San Francisco, I could always tell when we were approaching the 50 mile closing the fantail to dumping limit because the water would turn from that gorgeous purple/transluscent blue, I've never been able to describe it adequately, to that sickening green. Except mombassa, the water was so clear and clean when we were at anchor you could go out on the aft aircraft elevators and see the screws underneath the ship. Heck you could even see the fish swimming, the larger ones anyway.

The other thing was a memory of my first cruise whenever East Pakistan decided to become Bangaladesh. We got pulled off the line (in those days whenever anything in the world happened the Big E had to be there, to show the flag) and lead a 28 ship task force up the Straights of Malacca at noon. I remember hanging out of the catwalks that surrounded the flight deck crying, convinced I'd never see my beloved Singapore again. We steamed around the IO not flying because Diego Garcia was still a thought in somebody's mind in 71/72, and the aircraft would not have a place to "bingo" to if they had trouble where they couldn't come back to the carrier. We were there for a long time. Christmas eve, a Soviet heavy cruiser that had been following us around, came along side. Both sets of skivvy wavers were flashing messages back and forth. A bunch of us were along the rail as were the Soviets. We were flipping each other the bird, shooting moons back and forth, and both laughing like mad. Then I had one of the most significant experiences of my life. I realized that these guys were human, probably not much different than me. I thought if we were neighbors, we'd get along just fine. It was our governments that couldn't get along. But I digress.

While we didn't see a port again for 58 days, the tin cans were pulling in to Ceylon and other places.

I appreciate your descriptions of life aboard tin cans. During one of my 2 week trainings in the reserves, I got aboard the England, CG-22. We even got underway for a few days. It was a lot different as you say. By then I was a first class, and everyone in the mess accepted me right off. Yea I got harassed about being an airdale and a tweet, but I got my shots in too, usually at the pinochle table. I learned about their fire control systems. It was a lot different than bird farms, everyone was friendly, not that they weren't on the carrier, but on the carrier you couldn't get to know everyone like on the England. Also I think if you wantred alone time on the England you could get it. There was very few places to go on the carriers. They were just different duties. Also I remember when we'd give the cans some fuel, they'd come alongside, and I was shocked at their uniforms, or rather lack thereof. While in the Gulf of Tonkin 90 degrees, 90% humidity, we would get written up for being out of uniform if we didn't have a t-shirt on. These guys only had a t-shirt on, if they had any shirt on, cutoff dungaree pants and gym shoes. We wondered whose Navy they were in.

The other memory I have is while we were unrepping the tin cans, we could be on the flight deck looking down their stacks. Also we would be sailing smooth as could be, maybe gentle long rolls, their guys were hanging on for dear life.
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The Supercarrier.
95,000 tons of diplomacy.
4.5 acres of sovereign US territory.
Any time. Any place.
CVAN-65 and VA-196
The Big "E" and The Main Battery

[Paul]

“The other memory I have is while we were unrepping the tin cans, we could be on the flight deck looking down their stacks. Also we would be sailing smooth as could be, maybe gentle long rolls, their guys were hanging on for dear life.” {SL}

I didn’t mention this, but this is a variation of one of my memories too, only from “the other side.”

In particular, I was on the King, a DDG out of Norfolk. We had just come back from a big and long war games exercise in the Carribean in the fall and winter of ’85. Then word came down that we were going to leave like a month and a half early for the Med cruise, after being home for a little over a month. That was all due to Libya, which we knew from the news, from the fact that we'd be a thrid Battle Group in the Med, and finally by being told. We steamed over as part of the America Battle Group.

One of the clearest memories for me of this kind of contrast came from refueling off of the America in the Atlantic on the way over. Like I said, just about every hand aboard the King had an UNREP station and while along side we were taking water over the main decks, but looking up at the America, she’s riding pretty smooth and up at the flight deck level there’s all these guys sitting around doing absolutely nothing but just watching it all like tourists!

But, hey, I can even contrast between the Okie Boat and the Horne and the King. She was an old world war II Cleveland Class light cruiser converted into a Talos missile cruiser. She had a crew of about 800 of us and then another 300 or so in the Flag Staff.

The Horne had about a 450 man crew and the King just over 400. Each had one deck division where the Okie City had four deck divisions. Third Classes on working parties were very rare on the Okie City. The thought of being on a working party for a Second Class on the Okie Boat might have caused the guy a stroke. It just wasn’t an option on the other two sometimes.

USS England

I had a pal who served on the England from my division on the King who got out in ’85 and then went back in later in like 1990, just in time for Iraq in ’91. We had a second Class on the Horne who had come aboard after serving his first tour on her. Speaking of her and UNREPS, they used to play “England Swings” as a breakaway song on their UNREPS. I remember that the Halsey used to play “The Lone Bull” by Herb Albert and the Tijuana Brass for theirs.

The Ranger played the William Tell Overture – that’s another memory of carriers that sticks in my mind – her pulling away at flank speed with that blaring over the water. . .

Two of the ships I was on were former DLGs, but neither the same class as the England. When did you make the cruise as a Reservist?

UNREPS & Uniforms

Truth to tell, then for UNREPS, refueling, ammo, or whatever, then all of the ships that I was on and all hands on the main deck or involved in any kind of rigging or handling topside were in full uniform, Kapok life preservers, steel toe shoes, pants tucked into our socks, hard hats for certain hands. . . . regardless of the Ocean or season.

In the IO, shorts and T-Shirts were an optional Uniform of the Day while under routine steaming that was allowed while I was on the Horne, but it was stipulated that whether khakis or dungarees, the shorts had to be hemmed. T-Shirts were a common Uniform of the Day in West Pac. But like I mentino, neither of these would have been allowed on an UNREP by any of the hands on deck, or performing any rigging. Only personnel on the bridge and inside the ship.

In general in the navy, then quite a bit did tighten up on grooming and uniforms in general between the mid to late ‘70s and the early ‘80s, and some other things too, like the crackdown on drug use. A good bit changed while I was in.

Soviets

As to the Soviets, overall, I found them either to be obnoxious or a pain in the encounters that we had on ships that I was on and remember. That or most of their ships it was a matter of our just passing each other.

Notwithstanding the overflights of the Russian Bears that were common enough in the Western Pacific, like our Orions, the occasional passing of a Soviet missile cruiser or destroyer, the taking up on station in our formations (I’ll give them credit for being very good ship handlers back then), or of course the ubiquitous Soviet Trawlers always shadowing us, then there were a number of times we had them interfering in our formations including while on the King our having to play block against a Soviet destroyer trying to use the Rules of the Road to maneuver, block and interfere with the America and force her to change course during flight ops in ’86. They'd maneuver, we'd counter-maneuver, the two ships passed very close to each other at a good speed numerous times, but hands topside on either one I think mostly just gawked at each other when passing, which doesn't surprise me under the circumstances that time around. I only saw a glimpse of that ship those times through a viewport on the blast shield of the missile house.

Although one of my most memorable encounters with the Soviets was in’79 when their carrier the Minsk was making her way into the Pacific enroute for Vladivostok as her new home port. That’s when the Okie City and Akizuke were in Otaru, Japan and pulled out of port early so as to shake our “shadow” Soviet Trawler, which seemed to work. Then we ran through the Sea of Japan under an overcast sky. That night we steamed with lights on to simulate a cruise ship (including steaming through a Japanese fishing fleet that was a very striking sight). The plan was to give the Soviets a surprise welcome the next day. It didn’t entirely work. If nothing else, the straight line course for them from about 70 miles away probably gave it away.

As we pulled up, the four Soviet ships had their people formed in ranks topside, and all of them dressed in a kind of blue coverall (it looked like) uniforms.

For us, then there must have been at more than 700 or more guys topside (the bulk of the 7th Fleet Staff and most everybody but those on watch is my guess) O2 level of the missile house, fantail and main deck with the most, but also all over the superstructure as well. I was sitting on a landing on a ladder at about the O4 level on one of the 49 fire control radars with a pal who was an FT (great view). A lot of guys had cameras, all of us in uniform, but the usual mix of dungarees, coveralls (green, black, white, blue that were a common mix those days, and depended on whatever what division ordered – green being the snipe’s favorites and we had black, but it wasn’t a color code or anything), some in blue working jackets, some in the new black working jackets, some in green foul weather jackets. . . Marines in cammy fatigues and officers and chiefs in khakis. . . a mix of white hats, navy issue ball caps, and ship’s ball gaps, khaki ‘piss cutter’ garrison caps and combination caps, and Marine’s in their fatigue caps. . . probably at least some or someone in working blues. . . With all of the different uniforms, and nothing organized before hand, then we weren’t the most “uniform” looking bunch to them, I’m sure.

Our Vice Admiral aboard outranked whatever rank that their admiral was, so the Soviets initiated honors to us first. We came to attention and saluted per each whistle call, but truth to tell, they caught us off guard in the matter of having their people being in ranks to render honors. In comparison, we must have looked like a harbor cruise going past. Oh well. . .

The Akizuke was right behind us and it was the same for the Japanese sailors as for us. They weren’t ready with ranks and uniformity of uniforms either.

Unusual Soviet Behavior, at least in my experience.

One Trivial Pursuit Tidbit from Libya ’86, then when we first took station for the Freedom of Navigation exercise in March that public notice was given for, and before the Libyans first fired on us or made any of their attacks against us, then to our surprise (“our” being us peons at least), the Soviet ships in that part of the Med all withdrew. It was a weird sight on the plotting boards to see the big open area they were giving us and the first such sight for anyone that I knew. At the same time, Soviet diesel boats operating in the Med that were the same class as those that they had sold to the Libyans and operated by the Libyan navy, surfaced and identified themselves. Inside Libyan ports, then I understand that their vessels lit themselves up like the proverbial “Christmas Tree.” That was a first time kinda sight for me I know. The Soviet destroyer trying to break our formation later when some of their ships returned and we were all off the coast of Libya together was far more familiar -- the kind of Soviet navy behavior in those kind of times that I'd say was more typical of their kind of behavior in my experiences with them.
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Paul

[Paul]

The only ship that I spent any time on underway while in the reserves was a Perry Class FFG out of San Diego for a few days off the coast in the like '87 or '88. But, shame on me, I don't even remember its name anymore.

It was small, of course, but the sea state was such that there was nothing really memorable to me about the ride itself. I don't know, maybe old FF sailors can tell me if that's something that is remarkable in itself?

I'd been on others so much of it wasn't new. It was one of those whose NTDS was basic, so operations dept wasn't extraordinary.

What did strike me as such was a tour of the engineering spaces. I was immediately struck by the fact that the temperatures in all of the engineering spaces were quite comfortable. Man, even passing by an open door to a fire room while underway on any of the ships that I was on, then the blast of a wall of heat that would hit you could be wilting. On the Okie Boat then even the ambient temperature of the deck level around the fire rooms was high. The engine rooms on ships I was on weren't as bad as the fire rooms, but none of them anything like the comfort of all of the engineering spaces on that FFG. I image that it's the same on the new gas turbine powered DDGs and CGs as well.

The Ticonderoga of course was in commission while I was still regular navy. We thought it looked weird and downright Soviet in appearance at first with the fixed array radars and superstructure and I was aboard her visiting a pal when the ships were in port together in Genoa in '86, noted the terrazzo (sp?) passageways versus tiled, but no tour of the ship or anything and obviously not a clue about underway characteristics.

Truth to tell, when we saw that the Ticonderoga had spray painted silhouettes of drones shot down in missile exercises, then that struck as very lame. The Horne had a Gold Missile E with three hash marks on our Launcher when I was aboard which is elite and something to be proud of. But silhouettes of drones. . .

Like on some of the other ships, there were guys we had hoping and concerned about finding silhouettes of Soviet Floggers and French Mirages and such a couple months earlier, just in case. But drones versus supersonic aircraft is like the difference between a homemade briggs and stratton powered go gart and an indy car. . . We agreed we wouldn't waste the time or the spray paint

Oh, I use "snipe" as habit from memory, but a lot of friends were in engineering and I first bunked with the HTs in their berthing when I first reported aboard the Okie Boat so mean nothing by it. Whenever in their spaces with pals who were BTs or MMs, then the second part of the old "Heaven doesn't want us and Hell's afraid we'll take over" took on a deeper meaning to me!
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Paul

[Snipe]

I used to have this little 16mm camera. It was about the size of a pack
of PallMalls. I used to stick it in my pocket when I went ashore.
Recently I've replaced it with a little HP digital, but I can still just stick
it in my pocket and wander around.

Now if you want to do an early '60s pub crawl around WestPac, go to
http://www.dd729.com
click on ship/crew pictures - 1960-1969.
Of course the real blackmail stuff is still on my hard drive, but there's
enough on that site to give you an idea.

Hehehehehe.

Phil Grebner
BTC, USN (ret)

Jeeze, I wonder what Kerry actually did in Subic. I'd like to feed him
to Pauline's crocodile. (Just keeping on topic)
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Tin Can Sailor

[RStauch]

[Paul]

"None of which I ever saw. Trying to get a hostess under the table when I was there ('73-75) was just about as easy as it might be at a church social in Southwest Floriday, now. Not that I would ever try, of course."

Obviously, I fully agree that Kerry grossly exaggerates here, particularly regarding bloated bodies in s**t river. And it does sound likely that he's rehashing others' exaggerations and sea stories.

However, truth to tell, I wouldn't liken anything in the Subic area to a church social, except the church socials themselves, and such things did exist, off and on base (at least so I'm told by a few guys I knew who attended them -- it's not a brag for me, but I'll admit that I didn't). But in the large scene, where the bulk of sailors and Marines were concerned, then those things were small and not a dominant feature of the area.

Hey, while on the beat through The Jungle while on Shore Patrol, I even saw some Mormon missionaries out on Rizal Avenue one night -- black trousers, white shirts and little back packs and all -- but that just added to the overall eclectic "ambience" and weirdness (scratching for a descriptive term here?) of it all. . . . I agree with another’s' statement here, even Olongapo made Tijuana, and I would add Juarez, look classy in comparison. And Subic most belongs in a category with those kind of towns, including for the reason that many gals working in Subic came from other provinces to work as hostesses, hookers, golddiggers, whatever, and weren't only locals, or even a majority locals, I don't believe.

I think it was xsquid wo put it well I believe when he noted something like 'ahhh, the stories that only those who had been there would believe. . . ".

"Hostesses" (since prostitution was technically "illegal"), "under the table" weren't common at all in the clubs in Olongapo as I remember during the years that I was visiting, and I'd at least been through most every one of them, a bunch by bar hopping on liberty now and then, all at one time or another due to having walked every one one the four (later three) beats that Shore Patrol was broken up into, at one time or another, when I was assigned Shore Patrol on my duty days. But I wouldn't be surprised in the least if to hear that it happened in Olongapo clubs. Even for the gal who wouldn't aggree, then unless it was a regular of hers (who wouldn't bring something like that up to begin with most likely, with all of the "butterfly" aspects. . .) then it's a good bet that she'd know and find someone she knew who would.

Subic City was another story. . . Gals under the table and the "competitions" some guys set up (first to smile, first to whatever. . . I'll keep it clean here) were quite common in the joints in Subic City and also in a couple "specialty" joints out around Bario Barreto over the years that I was visiting Subic.

Jolos and New Jolos in Olongapo weren't places that anyone that I knew or myself would think about actually "hanging out in", but they were always part of the intro tour the first night whenever a new guy came aboard: The "peso show" (cigarettes, beer bottles. . . ) and having a gal "pick a peso" up off of a new guys forehead without his feeling a thing (and her using NO hands but rather another physical "organ" on her bottomless anatomy. . .) was a "gotta see" part of the first night. . . I don't remember anyone paying the bar fine for any gals in Jolo's, although wouldn’t be shocked to learn that someone did sometime or other. For the most part the gals that worked there displaying their "skills" were older. I didn't see many younger ones taking on the task of picking up the stack of pesos piled on, sometimes more than 40. That they got to keep what they picked up with their snatch was fine enough by me. Geez, it sounded like a slot machine when the gal would let loose of them after having picked them up!

I'm pretty sure that the gals in Jolos could have been talked into absolutely anything for a price. I just figure given the "hostesses" who worked in that joint, then a guy would have to be pretty darn drunk before even thinking about it. . . Which I suspect probably happened around 11:30 or so (I was never in Jolos that time of night, so don't know for sure).

Hey, most of the clubs in Olongapo were mostly bars with bands (country western, Disco, rock, whatever the specialty) where a guy could spend the evening getting drunk and rowdy with the gals for company, watch the go go dancers in some, pay the "hostesses" bar fine at the end of the night (cheap -- mayby 50 pesos an average) at about 11 or 11:30 and either be taken home by her for the night during the curfew hours till morning. And the majority always saw to it in the morning that the guy was up and on the right Jeepney back to the main gate so as to be on time for quarters.

Hey, even some guys I knew who woke up to find that they'd been ripped off (another risk with the street walkers), then usually they'd find enough left for the Jeepney ride in the morning. One of our guys, had all of us clothes ripped off too, but some clothes were left in substitute of his along with the 5 pesos for the Jeepney -- that was a hilarious story in itself, but I'll leave it for now.

If not the overnight option, then earlier in the evening and one might get a room in one of the dive hotels on Magsaysay (which also had rooms morning till midnight curfew available for "short times" with a hooker too (which was another option).

The advantage to the "Hostesses" was that they were required by the owner of the bar or club to get regular physicals and even their id cards . . . . Disease was always a risk, but any of the thousands of independent street walkers in Olongapo were a greater risk (some were "independents" for the time being because they had failed their physicals and caught the clap). But, still, there were literally thousands of them at times and many made a go of it, business wise, when the ships were in. . . 11:30 pm on Magsaysay or Rizal was wild as curfew approached. These gals in particular who still hadn't gotten a customer, started getting aggressive.

Hey, for those of us homeported in WestPac and who went in and out of Subic regularly, and sometimes spent weeks in port there, it was common that a gal would encourage a guy not to pay the bar fine, and meet him later, and he'd "tip" her. Most guys I knew gave them something more than only paying the bar fine. 50 pesos is nothing and they only got a fraction of it.

Some guys supported gals for this reason, to various degrees. Some setting them up in apartments and sending them money to live on while not in Subic and others, only somewhat when in port.

The smart "hostess" who didn’t have a sailor or Marine paying for her place, usually at least had her regulars or was working to make some. And they knew the most frequent patterns of what ships made port calls and when, especially for the WestPac ships homeported out of Yokosuka, Sasebo or whatever . . . which isn't to say, the occasional change in schedules didn't place a couple ships in port at the same time with the obvious subsequent "problem encounters" . . .

Oh, the Midway and her escorts IO cruises in the late '70s put a crimp in some of these gals' business too. Kind of an interesting variation on “All pay some, some paid all” I suppose (Sorry, the more the memories come back then the more the “jaded” aspect of us old WestPacers comes back too it seems. . . ).

One of our favorite past times in my division on the Okie Boat when underway was reading the hooker love letters some of these gals wrote their “honeys” between port calls to Subic: "Even I don't understand, this is a true love. . . " and so on. . . some of them were darn near form letters and talk about “boiler plate” phrases and sentences! . . . and of course the perfume and lip stick kisses at the bottom -- hey, a lot of those gals were "professionals" who paid attention to details in their way and profession too LOL

Anyway, every time the Okie Boat left Subic after a port call, there was a burst of requests for marriages. I believed the policy aboard of turning them down at least the first time and usually the second, was a good one. If a guy was really serious and persevered, then the repeated request to marry a girl would eventually be approved. But for the guy who quit after one try, then how serious was he to begin with?

Some of those guys, 18, 19, first trip to Subic, then it was a matter of it being the first piece that they ever had and falling for the line of bull by some of the hookers about "it's a real love" looking to get married and for a ticket out. . .

But Subic was seedy. Gals were picking guys up on the base too, even by the bowling alley or wherever. . .

Anyway, Subic was seedy and rowday. Where debauchery was concerned then a guy could get any form of particular perversity that he wanted. Gals under the table in Subic City were common. Some guys like that stuff and took the jeepney ride out there for that reason.
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Paul

[Paul]

"The only other thing I remember about Mombassa that I found totally remarkable was how clean the water was." {SL}

We didn't anchor out like the carriers at Mombassa, but tied up at a pier. It wasn't cruddy industrial brown like some ports, but it was murky. As I recall, there was a dredge working in the channel that we passed on our way in. . .

But you're right. The waters off and around Mombassa were crystal clear and gorgeous. That's true in the Caribbean and some of the small Central American ports I've been too as well.

So clear that one can see the screws on the ship is an example that I've used as description to other's too about some places because it's what struck me most too where some Caribbean ports were concerned. Even seeing the screws turning on the captains gig while standing on the main deck of the ship a few of us found striking along with seeing the screws on the ship while stationary or at anchor, so I can well imagine its impact on you at Mombassa.

Although, this is one where in the Carrier versus DDG, then seeing the screws on a Carrier strikes me as probably even more impressive a sight

Oh. Regarding the old DLG classes redesignated in '75 as CGs and DDGs -The England was differerent Class, with some differences (obviously being a double-ender Terrier systems for one and no Mk 42 5" gun mount), but very similiar to the King and the Horne in crew size, size and charecteristics. More in common than different.

The Okie City was closer in crew size and overall size to the Long Beach, which you'd be familiar with from your years on the Enterprise. If these rough comparisons should help. . .
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Paul

[RStauch]

Paul,

Two stories you brought to mind, and I won't get nasty.

1. When I first went WestPac, one of the guys in my division had been there many times, and remembered the old Jolo's. In fact, he had been the guy you may have heard about (it was not the urban myth you may have thought it was): He had a Piso on his tongue, and when the girl (somewhat younger, then, not that it matters from that angle) got a little too close, he got a little too excited and swallowed the coin (they are about the size of a silver dollar). He was choking, and starting to get a little scared, when one of the other guys grabbed a San Miguel, shook it up and stuffed it in his mouth. The pressure forced the coin down his throat, saving his life. (Important safety tip: when there is a danger of choking, keep a San Miguel around. ) I did not ask what happened to the coin, deciding that how he spent his money was his business.

2. I took a hostess out of a bar once, without "night off" papers (I liked her, but preferred to hang out at the U-and-I Club, drinking Rum and Coke). As it happened, she also did not have her book up-to-date (hostesses got weekly pap smears, and kept a record book that looked like your savings register). Bad Luck: she was picked up by the secret police, accused of being a "street walker," taken to a nearby clinic and tested immediately. It scared the hell out of her. I understood that I was a visitor in a foreign country so I did not try to fight it, but I followed them to the clinic to see what I could do to help. Since she was clean, they finally let her go after I paid the "fine" (I forget how much it was, but I'm glad I had it). I never tried that again.

BTW, it's spelled "Piso" (pronounced "PEE-so"). If you have one, take a look.

One other thing I just remembered: Those people are very enterpreneurial. I remember one guy that used to hang out on Magsaysay Drive at the alley in front of the U-and-I. He had a portable booth that he set up to do engraving -- the old fashioned way. None of that rotary-tool engraving you often see, or stamped letters pounded into the metal. This guy used a ballpeen (sp?) hammer and chisels. He did a terrific job on my Zippo lighter!
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Richard Stauch
Ft. Myers, FL

[jwb7605]

[Paul]

“somewhat younger, then, not that it matters from that angle”

Hi Richard:

Two to three years can indeed make a difference where the aging of hookers is concerned, but not that much.

My underscoring that the gals in the places like Jolos, and others like them, who picked up stacks of however many pisos the guys at the table were willing to throw in out of pocket and to stack up for them on beer bottles to pick up with their vag*nas (and 40 or more pisos wasn’t at all unusual) was due precisely to the “entrepreneurial” aspect . . .

Actually it has nothing at all to do with their once having been doing it when young. Overwhelmingly, the majority of gals in the Subic area never went on to performing those kind of acts. I certainly won’t claim that none ever did, but Younger women virtually never started out doing that kind of work in those places where such acts were common.

I don’t believe that’s surprising, if nothing else then the fear of hurting and ruining themselves physically. From the “entrepreneurial” perspective, these women filled a “niche” market, if you will. Most of those gals in Jolos and places like it had once been hookers when younger, but having aged (and even if in appearance, faster than years, which isn’t uncommon in that kind work), then they moved into filling a new “niche.” Most of those gals were older, fatter, and not very appealing at all by the time that they started doing that stuff.

After that, then among the thousands of prostitutes in Olongapao, and competition was strong. One had his pick, age 14 and on up, with the majority probably being in their late teens, 20s and early 30s, and then some fewer into their ‘40s and older . . . .

It’s Yokosuka not Subic that changed dramatically in the post-Vietnam war days where the numbers and ages of hostesses and the prostitution in the bars was concerned. There were still a few young hookers in Yoko, but they were becoming increasingly rare. The price of young prostitutes in Japan in the late ‘70s was mostly outside the reach of American servicemen. A lot else was too. One learned quick to enquire about prices of food and beverages in places that didn’t list them in Tokyo.

Just the same, also where Subic is concerned, then even with such acts being a niche found primarily in particular bars and clubs in Olongapo, then there was nothing unusual about them, and effectively these things were indeed done in front of “God and everyone.” It was a prominent feature of the “night life” as countless who visited over the years can attest as well.

I use Jolos as example because of its prominent location. It wasn’t a mere back alley joint like the Culture Club in Yokosuka (which I’d never been to), or something done in someone’s apartment somewhere like the Cucumber shows in Singapore, but a large club on a main avenue, near the intersection of two main avenues and it was a big place, big open room, high ceilings filled in with lots of tables. The “performers” doing their thing on the tables was impossible to miss walking in. And it’s true, when the gal “unloaded” after having picked up a stack of pisos, then it did sound exactly to me like a slot machine that had just hit the jackpot.

So, there was the audio as well as the visual aspects of that particular act that served to strengthen the image in mind and I suppose others' as well . . . The occasional sight of one having to give some extra shakes to get out the last piso is a memory of some of my friends. I can well imagine, it's reasonable and I have no reason to doubt it. I'm not surprised that made an impression on them either.
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Paul

[Paul]

"Did you ever go to the movie theater in Olongapo?"

If I’m being asked this, then, no, I never went to the movie theatre in Olongapo. Not on the base either. The only movies I saw while in Subic were on the O2 level of the missile house or on the mess decks on duty days.

I remember some of the advertisements for movies shown in Olongapo. I guess what one would label as Action films seemed to me to be popular. The adds in those big larger-than-life (billboard or posters?) with those rather pseudo-realistic cartoonish pictures (for lack of ability to better describe them) often seemed to show rather bloody or bloodied looking people.

A buddy and I did go to a movie with some gals in Pattaya Beach while there. It was a long drive through a stretch of Jungle as I recall to get to the Theatre. . . It was all in Thai. A slapstick western (as in cowboys and indians -but all the actors were Asians) comedy. The other fella and myself didn't understand a single word but understood some of the scenes and laughed.

So, hey, I agree with you, language isn’t everything. And not just for movies either. The Thai gal that he was with didn't speak any English and the Laotian gal that I spent four days with while in Pattaya didn't speak much English, just a few words and phrases. But we still a had a real good time (at least I did, I know, and she seemed to as well)! We spent some time down on the beach, and at a little outside joint on the beach that I liked the family who owned and ran and that I always hung out at while there. We also took in the sight of the Buddhist temple up on the hill (that was a first for me even though it wasn't my first port call at Pattaya Beach).

It was a pleasant walk up and back down, interesting for me, and religious for her (at least I guess it was since she lit some incense sticks and whatever else. . .), and a fantastic view from up there. I turned down an offer by a Buddhist monk decked out in the usual orange habit of his giving the two of us his blessing in exchange for "presenting him" with my watch -- no way.

I didn't give him my watch and he didn't give us the blessing. Fair enough by me. Just the thought of the offer was something that struck me as humorous at the time though. . .

She was a real sweetie. I don’t blame the monk, she looked good in the pink and white long dress she was wearing (very nice, rather conservative and very tasteful), we were both young and about the same age and (even if I say so myself) probably a fairly decent looking couple. . . but it was humorous, given the circumstances. . .

But as to Subic, and this can sound arrogant, but it's really not intended to be, but I never did without anything when broke in Subic. I don't claim it as being due to anything special about me personally, to be sure, but only due to starting out as a WestPacer and being homeported in the area. The frequency of port calls in Subic and time spent there were enough for me to be a regular introduced by regulars in a bar members of that division frequented out at at least one place in Bario Baretto and so taken care of when "in need" financially, so to speak. They knew me and knew I was good for any money if it came to that.

Anywhere else in the Subic area, or anywhere in general, outside some leeway on some rules in a couple joints in Yokosuka, and it was most definitately what one would best call a "cash and carry" basis. In all honesty, my last visit and being broke may or may not have been a problem, given that we'd be leaving for San Diego followed by the yards in Long Beach later that year, but having just come out of the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean, then money wasn't an issue that time. In fact, I took leave for the four or five days we were there that time. I brought my tooth brush with me in my front pocket and figured anything else I could pick up as needed. It worked out fine

Never having gone to the movies at the theatres in town while there was just a personal choice. I've heard quite different descriptions of some shows that some folks saw than what you describe. However, in a movie theatre, I wouldn't think that means anything, since premeirs change and I don't doubt in the least what you describe was common. Either way, I just can't comment from any personal experience on the movies that were shown in the theatres in Olongapo.

Where an impact or effect on individuals and subsequently on the town in general is concerned due to them, then I know that I don't have a clue if there even was one or if so, what it was.

My first thought at what you describe is that it sounded boring. However, then I remembered lunches in the PO Club at Great Lakes a few years later while I was at C school there where all of us in the lounge wound up engrossed by the Soap Opera showing in that time slot (The World Turns, I think it was) -- upwards of 40 or more guys sitting in dead silence following it all on the TVs above the bar. . . so, I'll hold off jumping in too fast with the thought about boring. . . How did you like them?
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Paul

[Paul]

"major Catholic overtones"

This only got me thinking of something else remembered.

For whatever it's worth, personally, I never mocked or ridiculed the fact that there were hookers who dressed up and went to Mass at such as Eastertide or the fact that many of the hookers had crucifixes in their rooms. And the same with those in Central America and the few prostitutes down there with their “patron saint.”

I fully recognize the absurdity and certainly don't try to reconcile Catholicism with such a low and objectively wrong profession as even some on the left stupidly and hypocritically try to do. Senator Kerry strikes me as precisely that kind and he certainly associates with some of them, given that he hears Mass at the Paulist center in Boston given the number of affiliates of theirs who have done precisely this.

Neither do I condone such acts performed in the presence of a sacramental like a crucifix.

Given the "peon" status of those gals in Subic, and some familiarity with the life many lived (and here I'm thinking more of those in places like out in Bario Beretto where many of them who worked those bars, not only worked in them, but lived in the rooms built onto them too, but also others in Olongapo and elsewhere), then when others did joke about it, then more for prudential considerations I just didn’t join with them in mocking it. I had my reasons, then, and even more now. And not at all due to the "non-judgmental" nonsense so ubiquitous these days in which one isn't supposed to be allowed to judge an act, statement or behavior but simultaneiously is free to "psycho-analyze" any others at will, even on absurdly little to no objective evidence or familiarty (Another syllogism turned on its head and distorted in our culture war. . ). Neither is it due to any sense of personal guilt and associated attempt at self-justification.

I had and have different reasons, then and now. At the base of it, then I simply never discounted that there might come a day after years of that kind of life and its consequences, when many of them might look at those crucifixes in ways they possibly hadn't for years with substantial consequences as a result. One isn't a hypocrite if he does something wrong, repents, and ammends his life. The hypocrite is someone who does something wrong and calls it good, while not even giving thought to the need of repentance or ammenment of his life. That and the fact of not all of us being equal in every way and those given the most are the ones that the most is expected from in return (not just financial here either. . . ) and the lack of any real detailed personal knowledge. . . . That's some of the core of the basis; writing anymore and I probably would only word it badly, and these last two aren't really worded well either. . .

Anyway, misuse of such things are in themselves absurd and a contradiction and objectively wrong. It's one I just wasn't vocal on and just didn't join in riducle or mocking them by some who did. And in fairness, the sailors who did I found to be a minority, whether especially religious themselves in any way or not. . .

At the same time, from some this is one that underlined a distate for characterizing the Philippine Islands on the basis of only what was seen in Subic Bay and confusing it as being representative of the PI.

What I wrote earlier about my date with the gal in Manila and the chaperones was by far more typical of dating among Filipinos or someone dating a Filipina in the Philippines than anything that one would see in Olongapo or the Subic Bay area. In a nation where the average annual income was about 400 to 500 US dollars per year, most of the Filipinos were overall decent people. Not to overromanticize or anything, and they weren't perfect, then or now, but it was largely true even among those living in poverty, even if not squalor, out in the Province. After that, even Manila and the population is unique in its own way from the rest of Luzon and there from Cebu or Iloilo . . . There's more in common with each other, especially religiously and culturally, but it's a large Island country with lot's of different variations, place to place, for various reasons.

Anyway, no doubt in my mind that there were also devout Catholics in the Subic area back in those days. In fact, the penitentes (sp?) in the roads on Good Friday served somewhat to demonstrate that there was devotion in the area as well as a good bit else. That devout Catholics exist in the midst of anywhere shouldn't surprise anyone, I don't believe.

But just like Juarez and most border towns are not typical of the majority of Mexican towns and cities, then Olongapo was not typical of the Philippines.
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Paul

[Paul]

“Those people are very entrepreneurial. . “

Hi Richard:

First, thanks for the correction. You’re right about the Piso. Being close to Mexico, that's a been a bad habit of mine, even when I was in the PI. So, please bear with me on any typos. Piso for the Philippines. Peso for Mexico.

What you mention here I believe is very much a key to Subic and why I point out that Olongapo and the area around it out to Subic City, fits in the category of Juarez and Tijuana, with due consideration for the particular differences. To be honest, rather than entrepreneurial, I would probably have used the term “hustle” as key to the Subic area. But “entrepreneurial” is fine.

Of course, I find myself pointing out more and more these days, that without some of form of ethics as fondation, then entrepreneurial activity, or even capitalism, are amoral systems by themselves and when divorced from ethical foundations, especially what I personally believe are the soundest, which are ethical systems developed in Western culture, and not Marxism which is also an amoral system in which "whatever is expedient" rather than "right versus wrong" has traditionally been the standard among Marxists of all kinds. I prefer the realist schools, or the scholastics. Anyway, only to point out that entrepreneurial activity can be used for good acts or for bad (immoral) acts when undertaken without any ethical restraints.

Just as it’s not uncommon to point out that neither Juarez nor Tijuana nor most any other border town or city is very fairly representative of Mexican cities in the interior, then I’d say the same is true of Olongapo back then versus Luzon and the whole of the Philippine Islands in general. The Subic area was just not a reasonable example of any norms throughout the rest of the Philippines.

Anyway, in contrast to the Mexican border towns, Subic didn’t tend to get families and other such American tourists and the subsequent businesses and hustlers that have grown there due to a focus on them in tourism. Even though both of these border towns have American military close by (it’s mostly soldiers from Ft Bliss who cross into Juarez), the military trade is only one portion of the focus of the hustlers and businesses that draw Mexicans from the interior to Juarez and Tijuana and the subsequent focus of them and many local Juaristas and Tijuanans in both normal businesses and the many hustlers.

The primary focus around Subic Bay was primarily due to the Naval Station, thereby primarily due to young sailors and Marines mostly on liberty, merchant seaman and so forth. And there were literally thousands hustling in the Subic area in one way or another.

Hey, even the kids hustled. Truth to tell, mention of being bothered at the sight of the kids begging for coins in the river while crossing the bridge from the main gate into town is something I don’t relate to. The sight of them never bothered my conscience. Even now, the memory doesn’t. Now I’d ask, where were the parents of those kids? Frankly, I wouldn’t be surprised in the least, that many were probably encouraging the kids to go out and hustle and beg for coins. And I met enough examples of some people in Olongapo that that doesn’t necessarily mean that the families or the parents were poor. Some of the daughters of SRF yardbirds were out hustling as hookers sometimes too. Some of the really diverse stories, and not just sea stories, begin with memories of the different kind of places the hookers lived in and brought guys home to. . . They ranged from abject squalor to fairly nice apartments to the back bedroom of the family home. . .

But all of the kids that I saw in the river while crossing the bridge were well fed and healthy in appearance. Let’s fact it, children weekend by malnutrition don’t spend hours in banka boats in a river or dive for pisos thrown into mucky cruddy water. When the nightlife was were really hot and heavy due to ships being in, then I remember well that often many of the young girls in those boats were decked out in full-length gowns, smiling angelically at us while passing on the bridge and calling over begging for coins. They didn’t dive for the coins but left that for the younger boys with them. The numbers of kids tended to vary according to the numbers going on liberty.

Lot’s of kids hustled, in one way or another, in the river, up and down Magsaysay and Rizal Avenues, at the market on the other side of town by the bus station, and all along the dirt highway out of Olongapo through Bario Beretto out to Subic City.

“Piso Joe” and kids scrambling and fighting over coins is no doubt a common memory for an uncountable number of guys who visited Subic over the years, Americans, military and naval service, and merchant marine, as well as Australians too and a few others too. I used to kid a buddy named Joe that, “hey, that kid knows you” (I always had a corny streak, I admit, and I’m sure I’m not the only one ever pulled that one). I remember one Australian merchant marine for who throwing a handful of coins from the outside table of a bar periodically through the evening was something he seemed to enjoy doing. The kids loved it too, as anyone who has been there would know.

I'll be honest, we were irked that the guy was doing it because he was stirring all of the kids in the neighborhood and encouraging them and they were becoming pests to us too as a result; pestering us whenever he wasn't throwing coins. His doing that like putting milk out on the porch for a stray cat - now it won't go away and other cats keep flocking in too. . . Those particular kids anyway weren't starving, malnourished or in need, they were just normal kids responding to a good thing. Hey, I'd have done the same at their age if I'd been them.

But mention of the difference of kids “manning” the begging in the river, is because the activities and intensity in the Subic area also varied depending upon how many ships were in as well. When only a cruiser and a couple fast frigates were in at the piers and SRF, then it was really mostly quiet (relatively speaking). When Carriers and their escorts were in, along with other ships, then, man, it would be wild. The hustlers of every kind increased in number and were active.

Most of us who knew the place, knew to keep our wallets in our front pockets, especially while traversing the packs of kids at the end of the bridge from the main gate into town. And among those kids flocking around us and begging and looking to pick our pockets, there were the kids who for a few bucks would offer their services to tag along for the night and keep the other kids off of a guy. Those handier with their fists and the more aggressive pushers, I guess, because they weren’t always the biggest, just usually the ones more full of “piss and vinigear”, so to speak.

Hey, I watched a shoe-shine kid at that first place on the right (I forget the name) just across the street hustling one guy for a shoe shine who had suede-like leather boots. The guy said, ‘no, these need saddle soap, not shoe polish.’ The kid answered, ‘I’ve got some.’ He dug around in his kit for a bit and then pulled out one of those little 50 cent size bags of Tide that are sold in Laundromats. We all laughed. He obviously didn’t get the job, and he left quick enough and moved on to the trying the next, but, hey, he tried. He was a hustler. The kid could think on his feet and was aggressive. That was common in Subic, even among the hookers, only in their own ways.

And for the hookers, then a lot of what I describe above is Olongapo, and a quick trip through it. But typical, especially in Bario Baretto and such, but also in Olongapo, the hooker who a guy spent time with, fed him, washed him, dickered in the markets or with Jeepney drivers and such for better prices for him, watched out for his interests, particularly against other hustlers and scams, was company at the beach, to a show, out to eat, or to any number of the activities available on the naval station, beaches, go carts, bowling, snorkeling, Grande Island, . . . whatever (I was serious when I mentioned earlier most of the gals in town knew more about that naval station than I ever would have, or do now probably.

For us, Subic was a working port. At times that we were in the SRF for a month or more, then after the first week, a guy began to look forward to duty days just to recoup! Plus, one started running out of money, even in Subic. After that, it was usually a matter of getting into kind of a routine, not unlike that for many of the guys stationed there, of hanging out in more mellow places frequented by guys off particular ships or divisions on ships, usually for us Fleet sailors in my memory, out along the highway. Those places and the gals were a lot more mellow than in the joints in Magsaysay in Olongapo.

Overwhelmingly, the hookers in the Subic area were young; late teens to early 20s. Late 20s and early 30s weren’t unusual, but in that trade were getting to be in the older category. Some, interestingly enough, were even somewhat modest. Some didn’t have a modest bone left in their body anymore. . . Some began as prostitutes out in the small joints in the provinces and then moved to the more lucrative Olongapo area hoping to make better money and some hoping to get married, especially as they got into their late ‘20s and early ‘30s. They were all hustlers, but they were mostly young women and they were human beings too. Were there often genuine affections mixed in? Sure there were.

For whatever it’s worth, I’ve also known guys who married former hookers and hustlers and the marriages worked just out fine. Others, and they were disasters. . . Right down to some of them joining the ranks of such as the “WestPac Widows” mentioned in the holes on the shabby strip in National City or joining the minority of those Midway wives in the club in Yokohama whenever she got underway. . . .

When all is said and done, the hustling was lucrative for some, but for the majority it was a very cyclical living that varied according to the numbers of ships in port. Truth to tell, even such as owning a bar by the retired Americans who owned bars out along the highway through their wives, wasn’t appealing to me personally in the least. In spite of the beaches, the tropics and all of the rest, then most of the day, most days of the year, they just sat around inside their bar. . .

There’s a lot of different “experiences” of Subic and WestPac, depending upon one’s duty station when there. Hey, the Okie City visited Pattaya frequently enough that one time I remember a bunch of the hookers there rented a water taxie and came out waving goodbye as we weighed anchor. Hey, some of the guys I knew appreciated it.

Oh, I saw those Mormon missionaries in The Jungle during a time when an Amphib force was in port in Subic as well as a Carrier Battle Group and some ships that were steaming independently like the ship that I was on at the time that was off of the west coast. The whole town was crawling with Marines and sailors and the hustlers of every kind were out in force.

The APs must have mustered at least a couple hundred of us for Shore Patrol that night. Man, the three sections of sailors and Marines on shore patrol that we were broken into looked like boot camp companies marching through town up Magsaysay and Rizal Avenues to the mustering points where we then broke up into teams of two. Coming back after curfew and it was the same. They marched us behind jeeps filled with APs. That’s why the mention of “scratching.” It was one of those nights when the place was lit up, loud, and everything rolling along in full swing.

On the way over to the main gate that evening one third Class boats off my ship, told myself and another guy to stick with him because he knew some APs and had an “inside connection” to the “best job.” It turned out to be slammers. We said thanks but went to the rear of the formation mustering the Shore Patrol. Slammers was the pits. Nobody I ever knew except unique guys like him wanted that job. One sure didn't need any "inside connections." Usually after no one responded to the call for volunteers, whoever was the number needed in the first rank were designated the "volunteers." In my experience, Shore Patrol is bad enough duty, but most wanted nothing to do with spending the night at the brig helping lock drunks into cells for goodness sake. . . Which brings to mind another memory of that particular port call: One idiot Marine beat the hell out of a young hooker out in town and then broke her neck. A real cute little babe that couldn’t have been 20 years old in a set of coveralls with a heart sewn in one corner with the words “baby.” She was a sweetie. He was obviosly a jerk.

Was that typical of the majority of Marines or sailors that night or any other? Hell no. Did such things happen now and then? Yes. Frequency varied. And such things happen throughout the world, in fact, and not only by Americans, and not only in the past, but today as well.

Given the fallen side of human nature, then it’s not surprising to me that these things happened now and then, or that they still do, but it’s the absurdity of exaggerating them and the stretches sometimes of trying to tie them to too much else that they’re not rightly tied to and have no correlation to, for whatever reason, that I believe is the real problem and disgrace, especially with men like Senator Kerry and those like him, of whatever kind.
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Paul

[Paul]

Bottom Line

This is a lot of what I peraonally find objectively miserable about John Kerry and other present-day ideologue types, left-wing, or increasingly the pseudo-left right wing types, that engage in this sort of thing.

The method is becoming increasingly ubiquitous and so becoming too obvious any longer. Or, if one prefers, while it's neither honest nor forthright, it is increasingly "transparent," to use a term from popular current jargon:

Use gross exaggerations of events that never occurred, or grossly exaggerate the significance of events or circumstances that did and thereby form and present a false caricature as representative of a place, system, event or whatever that is in no way representative of what it claims to represent and in fact never existed (regardless of how many know what and how much of it is false -- they're just ignored) and then attacking the mere caricature while claiming the need to uproot and demolish a system and replace it by some theorist’s untested alternative. . . . (Whether for personal gain, to further a claim of “systemic” cause and failure in need of replacement or to deride the "bad old days" that we're to be saved from by the theorists new system, or merely to advocate one false caricature over the other in a battle of false propagandas. . . . whatever),

Increasingly, it's becoming rare that something is advanced on the strengths of its own concrete merits any longer.

I suppose a good term to describe the method would be “deconstructionalist.” There are others as well. Antonio Gramsci's methods also come to mind, since they largely dominate in the west at present and they or variants have been employed by numerous different movements and agendas increasingly since the 1950s. Whatever term, this is increasingly tiresome and usually yields bad results as far as I can tell.

In these particular type of instances, then personally, I reject even the notion that the United States’ immigration policy bears even a share in the responsibility for Mexicans and other Central Americans dying in the deserts south of us. Nonsense.

Hey, I’ve been to places and seen a mother who pimped out her 15-or so year old daughter for what amounted to less than 15 bucks. That’s not a repeat of a sea story. Countless others have seen similar over the years.

In fact, the area (which name I now forget) that served as what we euphemistically referred to as the “boot camp” for the Yellow House district in Inchon (“retirement” district for the older hookers still active as well and a kind of “bargain basement” where rates were concerned), was my personal sight of this. And to be sure, it was a very seedy, cruddy part of a town on the outskirts of a large port town.

The Cucumber Show in Singapore usually tended to be a variation of this kind of theme too and isn’t only something known about by American sailors who have been to Singapore, but plenty of other Americans, Asians, Australians, New Zealanders, and Europeans as well. This is a “show” with different variations, but usually where a couple gals performed various lesbian acts with a “grand finale” of one of them loading her vag*na with a cucumber which was then literally “shot” across the room, landing in a bucket at least ten or more feet away. . . (I’ll admit that it’s striking what some have learned to do with some parts of the human anatomy. . . ). Hey, sometimes the girl’s father (or who one might reasonably guess at having been one of the girl’s father or at the very least someone who made his home available for his share of the cut of the proceeds) was slurping his noodles in the kitchen the whole time.

Simultaneously, I also noted that no matter how low or how cruddy many of the other people in those areas might have behaved, or lousy the actions of many, or how well of some others, then while these people existed and these things occurred, the overwhelming majority of others around them didn’t sink this low. Further, it was not always due to poverty, sometimes it seemed that it was the opposite. They were not poor people.

In contrast to the majority of South Korea, or Singapore, or the Republic of the Philippines, or even the particular port, then even with ebbs and flows in the frequencies of these activities, and even if they should be abolished entirely by a society (which I wouldn’t object to, and their being illegal used to be, with much else, a norm in our own society not that long ago), then these are a small percentage of the whole.

I’ll tell you what. Where acts of public lewdness and degradation are concerned, then there are nights now and then during the year where college and high school kids on a beach resort just south of me, make those of us in Subic in the old days look tame in comparison. They're not necessarily legal, but they're tolerted. There are some things that were virtually never seen done in public in either Olongapo or anywhere else in those days, but that sometimes are down there by these kids.

This is what gets me about guys like Kerry and especially those who support him. These people have been advocating on behalf of and forming in our nation the filth that has encouraged the growth of such behavior, some of which, frankly pales in comparison to Subic in the past. I'm not sure that I'd liken much of this area to church socials either, except the church socials themselves. . . And all the while Kerry and his supporters bemoan their exaggerations and supposed causes of the caricatures of Olongapo and Subic. And the same for many of our “leaders”, left and right. When did these guys turn into such neo-puritans all of a sudden???

And where issues such as “white slavery” and such are concerned, then nothing new there either of those aspects of human beings coerced or entrapped in such degrading activities as prostitution and its variations, then, frankly, men like this do nothing whatsoever from what I can tell to address them or even help to influence them, except to encourage them all the more.

Where Subic is concerned, and the post-US pullout days and transformation of the naval station into a free port and resort, more than demonstrates that the US navy took very good care of all of the lands leased to it. All of the undeveloped lands (the majority and a quite substantial acreage) were pristine when turned over to the Republic of the Philippines. The Philippines did gain by the US presense, including a great many in the Subic Area. The misuse of it, even by only individuals, doesn't take that fact away or diminish it one bit. I understand there are other aspects that many will debate. Just the same, I'm not impressed with the symbolism of the new flag pole at the former naval station.

More in our own family, so to speak, the majority of US government leaders did nothing to aid the efforts of the creation of the free port and resort. Truth to tell, the real credit there should probably go to the Gordon family from the looks of it (a name familiar from the "old days"). And I personally believe that we can be glad that the Gordon’s were successful.

That Japanese financing was obtained, and the efforts of the capitalist efforts of the People’s Republic of China to gain the facility, failed, as the same efforts did in Long Beach (also no real thanks to our national "leaders") is a very good thing. Especially when one considers how much the PRC has gained through their capitalist efforts throughout the Pacific, including their partial control of the operations of the lakes on each end of the Panama Canal, and, therefore, potentially, the canal itself.

Senator Kerry in particular, given his place in the Senate, and the committees he serves on, did nothing concrete or otherwise that I'm aware of to assist in the prevention of the former naval station being acquired by the PRC and aid the development of the freeport. So much for his crocodile tears for Olongapo over his distorted caricature in his memoirs in this regard as well.
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Paul

[xsquid]

I havn't been ignoring the conversation Paul, in fact I have really enjoyed it. I got admitted to the hospital though for a heart attack monday and just got released today. I have to make some changes to my life and take it easy, which means staying off kerry and political sites for a while. I will try to look in every once in a while a little later on though so I do give my best to swiftvets and the people that support them. (Snappy salute).
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11 years US navy.