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[Ijon Tichy]

Hi, I'm new to this discussion board and I'm not a veteran of the armed services (respect and props to those of you who are).

One particular allegation regarding the Kerry bronze star incident seems potentially legitimate to me.
Afaics, the bronze star is awarded when there is active enemy fire involved. I've seen accounts that credit Thurlow with receiving a bronze star under conditions relatively similar to those under which Kerry received his (for his rescue of crewmembers in the water, evidently).

I don't know if Thurlow actually did receive a bronze star for his service in that situation or not, but if he did was it a mistake similar to that made in awarding one to Kerry (under the assumption that it is true that there was no active enemy fire)?

Are mines "passive" enemy fire? Is there some distinction that's being overlooked?
Thanks in advance for any assistance in clarifying this issue!

[Ijon Tichy]

Okay, from reading some other threads I've got a theory that might establish a proper rationale for Thurlow's medal while leaving doubt as to the deservedness of Kerry's:

When the mine disabled the first boat, there was enemy fire directed at the crewmembers.

Rassmann may or may not have been subject to enemy fire, but when Kerry finally rescued him, he was not subject to enemy fire, thus Kerry's valorous action may not have been performed under conditions similar to that exhibited by Thurlow (enemy fire).

The point that remains obscured for me is whether or not there was active enemy fire at any point during the event in question. It seems to me that there must have been, or else there would have been little point in firing machine guns at the banks in the first place (presumably to suppress/eliminate enemy fire).

Comments? Criticisms?
Do I appear to be within the framework of the facts?
Has Thurlow himself addressed this topic? It seems that he could shed uncommon light on it.

[ASPB]

You're absolutely wrong. I served on river combat boats for a full year.

It was common practice when a boat had been disabled, in this case, by a mine the accompanying boats would open fire solely for the purpose of suppressing any "possible" fire from shore. This was done as a precautionary measure to interdict fire. The thought was always; "if we're shooting they'll keep their heads down and not shoot as us". And...it worked. Have you heard of "H & I" fire. (harrassment and interdiction)?

If you read the spot reports from the action you'll find no record of any damage to the boats caused by small arms or rocket fire. All injuries were of the type consistent with a mine detonation and happened only to the crew of PCF-3, not withstanding Kerry's minor arm bruise.

Also you'll find the only injury reported on Kerry's boat was Kerry himself.
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[Ijon Tichy]

Thanks for responding, ASPB.

If the preventative machine-gun fire was not in response to actual enemy fire, then I remain unable to explain how the absence of enemy fire would make Kerry's medal undeserved while leaving Thurlow deserving of the same medal.

Perhaps it's easily explained by folks who have served (please note that I frankly admitted not ever having been part of the armed services in my opening post), but I don't yet understand it. Perhaps enemy fire isn't the key criterion after all.

I'm not voting for Kerry under any circumstances, FWIW, but this sifting through the various accounts makes for fun research.

[leftknee]

Helicopter Pilot 1st Cav 7/69-7/70. My Bronze Star for "Meritorius Service was awarded May 8, 1970 and signed by E.B. Roberts Major General Commanding and Stanley R. Reasor Secretary of the Army. It was a "standard" award not tied to a specific action. It was signed and issued while I was in Viet Nam and still actively flying, by the then Division Commander and Secretary of the Army. The Awards of the Bronze & Silver Stars on the John Kerry website are both signed by John Lehman who became Secretary of the Navy in the Reagan administration after Jan 1981. The Kerry website also shows that there was a DD215 submitted to correct his DD214. One correction was to add "4 Bronze Stars " to his Viet Nam Service ribbon. This would mean that he participated in 5 campaignes during his 4 1/2 months on swift boats and his 2 or 3 week stay off the Coast in the Gulf of Tonkin on the USS Gridley. The real interesting thing is that this DD215 "Correction of Records" was signed in March 2001. This is all on the official Kerry web site.
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[Ijon Tichy]

Hi leftknee, and thanks for the additional info.

Respecting the awarding of bronze stars, do I understand rightly that active enemy fire isn't much of a requirement after all?

Is the issue then the (allegedly) embroidered accounts provided by Lt. Kerry, rather than the appropriateness of the medal?

My hunt for clarity is mired in the fog.

[baldeagl]

Perhaps this will help? http://www.lib.umich.edu/govdocs/jfkeo/eo/11046.htm
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[Ijon Tichy]

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

Maybe this thread could explain it?
http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2918
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother

[llano]

The Purple Heart is one that requires enemy fire.
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Home in Lubbock Texas, home of the Vietnam Project at Texas Tech University. A place visited frequently by Navy Chief.

[Ijon Tichy]

Thanks, Navy_Navy_Navy--that thread is fascinating.
However, it doesn't answer the question about any bronze star for Larry Thurlow (in fact the question is asked but left unanswered as to whether or not Thurlow was decorated in the wake (no pun intended) of the incident (AFAICS).

The thead does provide an interesting look at the events in question, particularly the account provided by an eyewitness.


It would be a great start if I could just confirm unequivocally that Thurlow received a bronze star associated with those events.
Currently I have no idea if the reports that Thurlow received the bronze star are accurate.

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

I don't know that he did, either. But, I thought that maybe the explanation of what he did might provide some insight into any award he may have received for his actions, that day. It is not noted whether or not Thurlow was wounded in that incident when the 3-boat was mined. Perhaps he got hit with shrapnel or pieces of boat. I don't know, I'm speculating, here.

Perhaps when things have settled down a bit, some more of the swifts will log on and catch the discussions and clear up the questions.
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~ Echo Juliet ~
Altering course to starboard - On Fire, Keep Clear
Navy woman, Navy wife, Navy mother

[JN173]

[jalexson]

[cipher]

The BSM was almost routinely awarded to officers. It was sometimes referred to as the "officer's good conduct medal", and still is to this day. During WWII, if you were in the Army and had the Combat Infantry Badge, you rated a BSM as well.

What makes the Kerry BSM "special" is that COMBAT "V" device. That is what distinguishes the medal from the category of "meritorious service" to "valorous" (or heroic, if you will) service in the face of enemy fire.

You see, without the ENEMY shooting at him while he is pulling the SF troop out of the water, the justification for the "V" goes away.

Admiral Boorda committed SUICIDE because someone questioned the Combat V on his Navy Commendation and Navy Achievement Medals.

In his suicide note, Boorda said, "I am about to be accused of wearing combat devices on two ribbons I earned during sea tours in Vietnam. It turns out I didn't really rate them. When I found out I was wrong I immediately took them off, but it was really too late."

He added: "I couldn't bear to bring dishonor to you."

You can read the details here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/847886/posts

As you can see, the Combat V is NOT a "trivial issue".
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