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tiptie Lt.Jg.
Joined: 19 Aug 2004 Posts: 138 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:33 am Post subject: Bullets Flying |
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This may have been covered in another thread. It is just possible that Jim Rassmann is just confused about the direction of the gunfire?
Thurlow said:
Quote: | To this day, I can say without a doubt in my mind, along with other accounts from my shipmates -- there was no hostile enemy fire directed at my boat or at any of the five boats operating on the river that day. |
I am sure that in the noise and confusion right after the mine exposion and all the gunfire coming from our boats could have been mistaken by Rassmann as hostile?
Sure, after a few minutes, all the boats realized that there was no return fire and all boats stopped firing INTO the shore.
But, for a few minutes, all hell was breaking lose, Rassmann is in the water, 50 calibers are opening up (ours), and he probably had no idea which direction there were coming from?
If we can believe Rassmann, then maybe, just maybe the gunfire he heard was simply ours? _________________ "A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can put on his shoes." Mark Twain
USCG
61-69 |
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hanna Rear Admiral
Joined: 07 Aug 2004 Posts: 701
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:36 am Post subject: |
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If there was all this "hostile" gunfire Kerry claims, why was no one shot? |
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LewWaters Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 4042 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:37 am Post subject: |
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Until I see otherwise about Rassman, I'm giving him the benefit of doubt. By his words, he dove to the bottom and couldn't see what was happening. However, his claim of a second mine going off throwing him off Kerry's boat seems suspect, since everyone else said there was only one mine.
Let's keep in mind, though, we aren't here to attack Rassman. He did serve honorably and was not a crewmember of Kerry's. Let's keep our main focus on Kerry. _________________ Clark County Conservative |
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ASPB Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:40 am Post subject: |
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Lew,
Rassman should not be attacked for what he did then but he damn well should be be attacked for the changing and shifting stories in the last 6 months.
Tom _________________ On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Curt Lt.Jg.
Joined: 14 Aug 2004 Posts: 129 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:42 am Post subject: |
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The only hard thing about that Lew, is that Rassman has made himself a target. I truly understand what you are saying, but the likely hood of him not taking any hits in this is unrealistic. I think Rassman is a good person, but I dont understand how he can stand beside Kerry. Unless there is some future promises or that he is already on the payroll. I am not trying to be disrespectful by this, just honest.
Curt |
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cipher Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 902
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:47 am Post subject: |
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It's possible, however, according to several of his accounts, he was underwater to avoid getting run over, and he was in the water for the longest period of time, being the last one picked up after the -3 boat was disabled.
And the boats were ALL there for about an hour and a half, rigging the -3 boat for towing and such. It's possible Rassman was confused, or scared, or shocky from the blast.
It's not about Rassman, it never has been. He's just one of the guys who happened to be there when the mine went off and he ended up in the water and pulled out by Kerry.
Rassman did put Kerry in for the Silver Star, but the recommendation was downgraded. There's a lot of controversy about just what happened when, and who was where. Which is why the eyewitness testimony of SO MANY others that were there at the time is so important. NO ONE else can recall any incoming fire, and none of the damage reports record any bullet holes for that action.
If you go prowl the Research & Resources section, you can read much more about what happened.
Welcome aboad, tiptie (any relation to the eBay "supersniper" by the same name?) _________________ USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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llano Seaman
Joined: 11 Aug 2004 Posts: 157 Location: Llano Estacado
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:49 am Post subject: |
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This is the same Rassman who said he was the only one in the water. Totally not true. _________________ Home in Lubbock Texas, home of the Vietnam Project at Texas Tech University. A place visited frequently by Navy Chief. |
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LewWaters Admin
Joined: 18 May 2004 Posts: 4042 Location: Washington State
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:50 am Post subject: |
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The left would love to see us attacking Rassman, who may have performed real heroics there. DU is constantly looking here for ammunition for Kerry to use as well as for themselves.
Rassman is in the public eye and his story can be questioned, however, going after him instead of Kerry just works against the Swiftvets.
We don't like the way the left went after Thurlow, understandably. Tit for tat isn't going to expose Kerry, unless we stumble across something definte.
Rassman isn't off limits, but we don't need to deflect attention to him and away from Kerry. _________________ Clark County Conservative |
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producehawk PO1
Joined: 14 Aug 2004 Posts: 463
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: |
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He still knows how kerry got wounded that day with the grenade in the rice. So on some level he is not telling the truth. However, I could cut him some slack on not knowing where the gunfire was coming from. Kerry probably told him it was the enemy and he bought it. |
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Curt Lt.Jg.
Joined: 14 Aug 2004 Posts: 129 Location: Eastern NC
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:52 am Post subject: |
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No problem with that Lew and I can respect it.
Curt |
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tiptie Lt.Jg.
Joined: 19 Aug 2004 Posts: 138 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 12:57 am Post subject: |
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cipher................Same person.
OT........Supersniper is me........ _________________ "A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth can put on his shoes." Mark Twain
USCG
61-69 |
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ASPB Master Chief Petty Officer of the Navy
Joined: 01 Jun 2004 Posts: 1680
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:01 am Post subject: |
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cipher wrote: | It's possible, however, according to several of his accounts, he was underwater to avoid getting run over, and he was in the water for the longest period of time, being the last one picked up after the -3 boat was disabled.
And the boats were ALL there for about an hour and a half, rigging the -3 boat for towing and such. It's possible Rassman was confused, or scared, or shocky from the blast.
It's no about Rassman, it never has been. He's just one of the guys who happened to be there when the mine went off and he ended up in the water and pulled out by Kerry.
Rassman did put Kerry in for the Silver Star, but the recommendation was downgraded. There's a lot of controversy about just what happened when, and who was where. Which is why the eyewitness testimony of SO MANY others that were there at the time is so important. NO ONE else can recall any incoming fire, and none of the damage reports record any bullet holes for that action.
If you go prowl the Research & Resources section, you can read much more about what happened.
Welcome aboad, tiptie (any relation to the eBay "supersniper" by the same name?) |
There's no documentary evidence other than Rassman's word on this. The recommendation was signed by George Elliott and witnessed by Del Sandusky. No records support Rassman's allegation. He was not even a member to Kerry's unit. How'd he do? By Radio from his Ville to An Thoi? _________________ On Sale! Order in lots of 100 now at velero@rcn.com Free for the cost of shipping All profits (if any, especially now) go to Swiftvets. The author of "Sink Kerry Swiftly" ---ASPB |
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Wing Wiper Rear Admiral
Joined: 09 Aug 2004 Posts: 664 Location: Oregon
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:23 am Post subject: |
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Rassman had exactly how much time on Swiftboats? Being Army SF, I doubt it was much. Kerry pulls him out of the water, tells him he went over from a "mine blast" instead of "when I went full-throttle", he might honestly still buy that.
First time he came up for air, there's a hailstorm of fire from the boats, brush and dirt flying on both banks, he's eye-level with the water, dives back down for cover. He's not a credible witness to most of what happened due to his position, but he may actually believe a lot of what he's saying.
He should admit he couldn't see much publically before he ends up getting roasted along with Kerry. That would take a lot of guts at this point. Just my thoughts. |
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cipher Vice Admiral
Joined: 10 Aug 2004 Posts: 902
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Quote: | There's no documentary evidence other than Rassman's word on this. The recommendation was signed by George Elliott and witnessed by Del Sandusky. No records support Rassman's allegation. He was not even a member to Kerry's unit. How'd he do? By Radio from his Ville to An Thoi? |
You're absolutely right. The only documentation is Rassman's account about putting Kerry in for the SSM. I remember the discussion you had about it here: http://www.swiftvets.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1688
and that there is some controversy (if only from Rassman himself) about it. Didn't mean to step on your toes. _________________ USMC 69-72, 7th Comm, 3rd MarDiv, FMFPAC
US Army 75-79, 97th Sig, SHAPE, NATO
Arkansas National Guard 79
Defense contractor for US Navy, SSPO, SP-20, SP-24, OP-12 84-92 |
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Bostonian Seaman Apprentice
Joined: 14 Aug 2004 Posts: 81
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Posted: Sat Aug 21, 2004 1:33 am Post subject: Rassman |
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I think Rassman is entirely sincere, and there's no reason to go after the guy.
It makes sense that he would mistake the suppression fire for hostile fire. And that's the story he's believed for a long time. He wasn't around afterwards to compare notes with the other sailors. And Kerry did pull him out of the water, for which he was glad & grateful.
Someone else would have pulled him out, but he's grateful to the guy who did.
And again, after hearing the suppression fire, he thought he was in a lot more danger than he probably actually was, and I'm sure it left a deep impression on him.
But if he has any doubts about it now, he's got nowhere to go. Leave the guy out of it, that's what I say. |
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