SwiftVets.com

[tigerflyboy]

Ok so now here we have a few comments form the chicage suntimes, abotu "W" honestly or (lack there of!)
so Bush is in support of the military ...right
Talking of the new flim Fahrenheit 9/11
The film shows American soldiers not in a prison but in the field, hooding an Iraqi, calling him Ali Baba, touching his genitals and posing for photos with him. There are other scenes of U.S. casualties without arms or legs, questioning the purpose of the Iraqi invasion at a time when Bush proposed to cut military salaries and benefits. It shows Lila Lipscomb, a mother from Flint, Mich., reading a letter from her son, who urged his family to help defeat Bush, days before he was killed. And in a return to the old Moore confrontational style, it shows him joined by a Marine recruiter as he encourages congressmen to have their sons enlist in the services.

Ya think there's a connection here???

When a group of 9/11 victims sued the Saudi government for financing the terrorists, the Saudis hired as their defense team the law firm of James Baker, Bush Sr.'s secretary of state. And the film questions why, when all aircraft were grounded after 9/11, the White House allowed several planes to fly around the country picking up bin Laden family members and other Saudis and flying them home.

Could he be covering his proverbal behind here??

"Rumsfeld was under oath when he testified about the torture scandal. If he lied, that's perjury. And therefore I find it incredibly significant that when Bush and Cheney testified before the 9/11 commission, they refused to swear an oath. They claimed they'd sworn an oath of office, but that has no legal standing. Do you suppose they remembered how Clinton was trapped by perjury and were protecting themselves?"
Copyright © Chicago Sun-Times Inc.

And you talk about this being the guy that you want to lead you? Seem like this is more proof of what I have been trying to tell ya Bush is just as decietful as anyone elses that's held the office, But remember he was going to retore the integery of the office! what a joke.

[Grampa]

Oh yea, Michael Moore is an objective source for information concerning Republicans for sure.

Iraqis themselves call criminals "Ali Babas". We just adopted the term to make it easier to communicate with citizens.

Bush never proposed to cut salary and benefits. There was a temporary increase in certain wartime service pay approved for the Afganistan campaign. This was due to expire Oct 2003. Rumsfeld thought that entitlements to said pay should be changed to reflect actual exposure to danger, in order to save money. For example: Folks who are stationed in Kuwait only face the danger of sand in the eye, heat stroke in the summer or maybe a hot cheese burn of the mouth from overly hot pizza slices, while those of us downrange in Iraq face roadside bombs and mortar attacks daily. Rumsfeld wanted to change that. The Democrat party made sure to use this to say Bush wanted to cut our pay. Our pay of course remained the same.

To think that Michael Moore give two turds about the US military is laughable.

If the administration was guilty of anything, it was bad timing.
_________________
Iraqi Freedom 2003-2004. We won't take any of that 1960s crap when We come home!

[waltjones]

This is an urban legend. In fact, the Bin Ladens did not fly out until flights were again allowed. They did NOT fly out while our planes were grounded. If you take anything Micheal Moore says as the truth, you have joined - fully - the looney left. This guy hates America and practically everything about it. If he were here now, I'd be going to jail. Semper Fi!
_________________
Walt Jones (USMC, '65 - '69) It says much about the person who defends a man with no honor.

[tigerflyboy]

This did not come from Michael Moore it came form a reporter at the Chicage Suntime
And your right they did not actually fly out of country until after the flights were restored ,but they were gathered from all over the country and brought to washington until they could leave. See this link, for a story by "the Hill"
http://www.thehill.com/news/051804/binladen.aspx

Secondly I do vaguely remember somthing mentioned about a cut in the military back right after he was elected but it was quickly squashed.
But he has been instramental in denying Veterans they're just due by refusing to support concurrent receipe. Those that retired earned thier retirement, just because they we're injured while in the service why sould they be penelized by have money removed form they're retirement equal to what they receive from the VA.

Finally I noticed you had no comment on the most important quote that I included, about they're refusal to swear an Oath when they testified? and that just backs up what I have been saying, bringing integrity back to the office was only a tag line for Bush he would not know integerity if it slapped him in the face.

[Grampa]

That "commision" is a Soviet style political show trial. It's purpose has been gighjacked by Democrat leftists who want to pin 9/11 on Bush IOT get Kerry elected.
_________________
Iraqi Freedom 2003-2004. We won't take any of that 1960s crap when We come home!

[tigerflyboy]

Yes I listen to everyone, But I do tend to take what he says with a grain of salt, but if I don't listen to all views then I would be a hypocrite.

[95 bxl]

[tigerflyboy]

The "commission" a soviet style political show,....
so what was the special investigastion, that was accomplished under Starr, Whne they could fine no wrong doings under witer water they just ahd to fine something, huh.

The Commission was directed by the president (Bush) to fine problems with the system, so now that they are finding wortng doing witht the president it's a Soviet style show?

AS far as "WAR Criminal" goes was there ever a trial that convicted him of that? don't think so, But holding something against someone for 35 years ..... now that's a crime! 95 BXL don't ya thing it time to move on with your life?

[redhawk34]

"But holding something against someone for 35 years ..... now that's a crime!"

I just completed my yearly duty and honor of writing memorial cards for the 755 "Redcatchers" KIA in Vietnam, which we place at the Wall on Memorial Day.
I got news for you, 35 years later;
They're all still dead!

Fonda, Clark, Kerry, et al, decided to make common cause with the enemy, and by their influence helped greatly to create the atmosphere of near treason which culminated in our craven politicians declaring defeat, even to the extent, after all US forces had left, of denying ammunition to the ARVN forces after '72.
I guess their side won.
Sorry, I was with the Americans, and I won my piece of it.
Kerry's actions also fueled twenty years of vilification of the Vietnam Vet.

Flyboy, you seem to regard this forum as a High School debate, all about tactics and changing the subject. That's OK if you are into that kind of mental ego masturbation, but I'm not.

When I joined, I swore an oath, very similar to that taken by the President.
When I mustered out, I handed back my equipment and weapons.
BUT. Nobody took back that oath.
I am bound by mine still, Kerry broke his at the first opportunity.
35 years hasn't changed that.

Redhawk34

[tigerflyboy]

1st - I am in no way taking anything away from what you and thousands of other vets accomplished, the things that were done to them when they and you returned was simply shameful. It took too many years for the vietnam veteran to be properly recongized for they're sacrifices.
2nd - no this is not a HS debate, it is a discussion an exchange of information to help people make informed choices. Listening to both sides give you the most amount of info, allowing us to make a better decision come Nov.

3rd- I have been trying to find all information on the incidents mentioned about whether he earned his medals, here's what I have found:

there are 3 letter indicating that he recieved Purple Hearts:
1st PH received for action on 2 Dec 68 letter Dated 28 Feb 69
2nd PH received for action on 20 Feb 69 letter Dated 5 Mar 69
3rd PH received for action on 13 Mar 69 letter Dated 17 Apr 69

of these incidents the only one that has no documentation is the 2 Dec 68 incident, I would like to know why?

As to what type of wound he recieved and why he lost no duty time, that has no bearing on it, according to the Army Regulation 600-8-22 (Military Awards):

A wound is defined as an injury to any part of the body from an outside force or agent sustained under one or more of the conditions listed above. A physical lesion is not required, however, the wound for which the award is made must have required treatment by a medical officer and records of medical treatment for wounds or injuries received in action must have been made a matter of official record.

in the after action reports available, Kerry and most of his crew, as well as the other crews were treated at USCG vessels: WHEC 36, and WHEC 44. The fact that most of them were released to duty speaks to the severity of the wound, but they were wounds no less.

Kerry wounds we're to a left thigh (20 Feb 69)
Left buttocks and right forearm (13 Mar 69)
I read both the incident report as well as the citation, and there were some differences in the wording, but that would not be the 1st time there was differences in the citation and report.

In the reports I found the names of the crew members that were wounded, I would like to hear what they have to say about the incidents:

20 Feb 69 incident
LT Richard Wayne Pees
ENS Kenneth Frank Tryner
RD3 Leslie Lyle Vorpahl
GM3 Earl Nathan Hollister
BV2 Michael John Givens

13 Mar 69 incident
RD3 George Eward Bo
BM2 Wayne Dean Langehoff
ENS Eugene Kenneth Thorsen
RD3 Ramiro Gonzales
HM2 Robert Chandler Lundquist
LTJG Robert Washburn Hildreth

I also would like to know why he did not release the report in reference to the 2 Dec 69 incident that earned him his 1st PH.

As to the War Criminal tag, that was a different time and a different set of values, it was the me generation. He was never accused of or tried as a war criminal, I'm not going to ask why people did what they did, he's the one that has to live with himself about whether he miligned the veterans.
I'm sure we all said some thigs we wished later we had not uttered unforunatetly you can't close the barn door after the cows are out.

Now I try my best to look at both sides of the talks on here, each time someone points something out to me I try my best to go and investigate it, but when I bring up a point about the one opposing mr Kerry and ask you to check it out no one seem to what to answer or look up the facts. I've said it before and I'll repat myself. Kerry is not the the one I would have chosen, btu he is the best of the 2 left, and I will continue to say that, until someone show me something to change my mind, and I am open to anything. again thank you for your service redhawk 34 I for one do appreicate it.

[95 bxl]

[tigerflyboy]

Bush's lack of combat experince makes not difference to me. But if he's gonna use it as a campaign tool the he should be able to back it up, Bush has contantly bad mouthed Kerry's service , yet he never really served.
Some one mentioned that, the reserves and guard of today should really be upset with that, but the fact is when you went into the reserve in the 60-70's the chance of you serving any time unless you wanted to was slim and none.
As far as making the big deal about Kerry's service, that is the main topic here so if your gonna compare something you can't talk apple and oranges, Kerry was in combat, even if it was short time. Bush was not he flew around the state of Texas.

So has anybody tired to talk to the names I mentioned? that would shed a lot of light on the subject.

A lot of guys that came back form over there admitted to what they considered war crimes, does that mean we should try ever single one of them?? don't you think it was enough that they wnet through the experience.
Sorry we disagree on this but please give me some more information I would be interested in proving this point or debunking it. I Reaaly wnat to make the right choice!

[Navy_Navy_Navy]

[tigerflyboy]

Again I said thoses that joined the guard and reserve at that time has little or no chance of being shipped overseas. Things are different today, now there even talk of activating inactive reserves, but remember we don't need any more active duty soldiers!! per Rummy

Yes I did say that Kerry service and Bush lack of does not bother me so much, ya'll are the ones up in arms because he's "a war Criminal"
"He did not earn his medals"

All's I sayng is if your gonna compare Kerry to Bush on military service then, you have to appreciate that he did serve and Bush did not.

When did Bush use his NG service for campaign reasons:
Well the most glaring use of his "service" was his Carrier landing to end "Major Combat" and he constantly says he relate to the veterans "brothers" that he was a "Pilot".

Navy, I give credit where credits due, Bush did a great job in the weeks following 9-11. But his reasons for going after Sadam were a lie, the things I have said here are not lies if you feel I'm misinformed that fine show me different, but I am not trying to "Spread lies and inuendoes. Walt has brought up issues that I have tried to find proof for or against, and in the last post I mentioned that I would like to see more information about his 1st PH because there is no report available.
But each time I bring up issues about Bushes short coming either no one responds or I get called a leftist, or a democratic flunky etc.

forgive me ,but show me the proof, in the mean time here something for ya'll to consider:
Kerry has been beleaguered for not supporting defense, voting against systems, here's an article I read that trys to "set the record straight"
http://slate.msn.com/id/2096127/.

Change my mind, as I said before Kerry is not my 1st choice, but Bush is beyond my last choice, unless I see something different.

[95 bxl]